what powder is used in factory loads?

[Lonewulff]

would anyone happen to know what powder is used in factory federal .308win 150gr powershock ammo? i was checking th federal website and they have a link to alliant powders website, but doesnt specify which bullets get which powder.
i know i pulled 5 loads and measured the powder, they all had just under 46gr of powder. 45.6 up to 45.8 on those 5 i pulled. although i did not use a digital scale so i average it to 45.7gr. i was just curious if anyone knew the actual brand they used in them.

[Uncle Buck]

It is my understanding that each factory uses their own 'proprietary' load. It could be a single type of powder or a blend of different powders.
Never try to figure out what powder they are using just by looking at it and weighing it. These companies have spent a lot of money developing their loads, so I do not think if you wrote to the company they would tell you.

Also, I know people have done it, but never try to mix powders. Well, let me rephrase that: Never try to mix powders unless you have a gun, arm, eye, fingers or other body parts you no longer care to own.

[Unclenick]

Federal and Alliant are owned by the same parent company, ATK. So, where an Alliant powder can be used, it probably will. For example, Reloader 15 is currently used in Federal Gold Medal match ammunition.

However, most commercial ammo does not use the same grade of powders sold to reloaders. Powders sold to reloaders are called canister grade powders and they are blended with held-back quantities of previous lots that burned faster or slower than normal. This blending is done to keep fairly consistent burning rates between lots of canister grade powders. That prevents load data from changing dramatically when you buy new lots of the same powder.

Commercial loaders usually buy unblended bulk, or non-cannister grade powder. They then use pressure test barrels to adjust their loads for the different burning rates of each bulk powder lot. Thus the charge weight won't necessarily be the same from one lot of the ammunition to the next.

In some instances, manufacturers us special powders that are not made available to reloaders at all. Hornady Light Magnum and Federal does it with the match ammunition for consistency, but I don't know that they are with the ammunition you mentioned?

You didn't say whether you found a spherical propellant or a stick propellant in the case? In a Winchester case, it looks like H335 is a spherical that would come close to matching charge weight and velocity at reasonable pressure. In a Federal case (less capacity than Winchester) a stick powder like IMR4895 will come close.

[Lonewulff]

1) i had a suspicion that it would be a "house special" load. i was just curious if maybe i would luck out and it be simpler than that.
2)all the rounds i have for this little side project were just blue box federal softpoints.
3) had no intentions of blending anything, i follow safety rules because they are there for a reason. usually at someone else's expense to find out it was a bad idea for whatever the rule is for.
4) the whole point of this experiment was to take cheap bullets yank out the tips and put in better tips and use them for target practice.

[CraigC]

Tips???

[orionengnr]

4) the whole point of this experiment was to take cheap ammunition yank out the bullets and put in better bullets and use them for target practice.

[freakshow10mm]

Canister powders are more consistent lot to lot. Manufacturers don't use grain weight the way we handloaders do. They load to a specific pressure with a certain powder that will have to be X cc of volume. Same way we set the PMs, but we set them to toss in grain weight, not by cc volume at whatever weight it comes to be. Talking with some lab guys, the way some of them use the powder that will give high density with a specific bullet or range of bullets loaded to a specific pressure.

Say for the 10mm a manufacturer wants to load at 37,250psi and wants to load only a 180gr and 200gr FMJ to that pressure. They will formulate a powder blend that will give high load density with each bullet type at a set OAL so each load generates 37,250psi on average using SAAMI protocols. That's how companies like DT can use 13.1gr of ball powder in their 10mm 135gr load and achieve high velocity (even though 50-80fps less than advertised) when none of the ball powders on the consumer market can safely achieve this. This could be as simple as using something like a specific lot specification of Accurate #7 powder that is a different specific lot specification that the consumer spec Accurate #7 is.

Manufacturers have to test each lot for consistency. If one lot doesn't match with their standard, it gets set aside for another use.

Any OEM manufacturer can get powder blended for their needs. Western is currently blending powder for me to use in my 50 BMG ammunition. The very first question they asked was "What pressure do you want to load to?"

A lot of the powder you buy on the shelf is a specific lot variation spec of non-canister powders. Winchester 748 is the exact same powder as St Marks #748 powder. Difference being SMP #748 is a wide range of burn variation whereas the commercially sold W748 is a small spectrum of burn rate of the SMP #748 profile. Just to toss out arbitrary numbers, let's say SMP #748 has a lot number range of 1-10. W748 might be only lots 6-7 within that lot 1-10. Winchester will use lots 1-5 & 7-10 for various factory loads while leaving lots 6-7 for commercial sale to handloaders. Winchester uses the same exact powder you buy on the shelf except the stuff they use may be a different burn rate within the powder burn profile spectrum. W748 is a factory .223 Rem powder, W760 is the factory .308 and .30-06 powder, W780 Supreme is the factory magnum powder.

H110/W296 is exactly SMP #296 powder, but again, a specific controlled range of burn rate in the spectrum profile of the burn variation in the SMP #296 profile. SMP #296 was developed specifically for the .357 Magnum factory loads as specified by Winchester. Since then it has been available on the commercial market marketed as H110 and W296, which is the exact same powder as each other since it is SMP #296 powder rebadged.

Same with W231, that's simply SMP #231 powder.

As an OEM I can also have powder blended for me and repackaged with my information on it so it's "my powder". I can have Western Powders blend me a powder that works well in high velocity 10mm loads and call it Freakshow #10 powder and sell the stuff if I want to.

Federal Premium ammunition is subcontracted to be loaded by Norma in Sweden. Federal loads their blue box and all their handgun and shotgun here domestically in the States. ATK is also subcontracted to operate the government's Lake City Arsenal. They sent Federal employees to run it.

[wncchester]

"would anyone happen to know what powder is used in factory federal .308win 150gr powershock ammo? "

Few factories use our type "cannister powder" for anything, they can sell that to us for more profit.

Factories have a lot of fancy test equipment so they can mix and blend powder lots. They do that to obtain the burn/pressure characteristic each run of ammo needs to meet SAAMI specs.

Meaning we can often match factory performance but we can't do it with the same powder.

[Bud Helms]

Just a "tip" for your consideration ... An old man that had been handloading for over 40 years gave me this tip, so I'm passing it on.

I find my curiosity over the years taking me in strange directions, sometimes with a motive I myself discover only at the last minute. I had a burning curiosity about this same thing, "What powder did they use for this load?"

My old mentor, advised me that to know what powder is used in a factory loading does not eliminate the standard cautions of working up any load. He had some non-cannister grade powder he used, but he cautioned against rolling that particular set of dice. Since you will need to start low and work up, what difference does it make except to satisfy that curiosity. It doesn't give you any shortcuts to a factory dupe load.

Working with factory labeled cannister grade powders is safe as long as you observe all the precautions and safety practices of the handloader. Naturally.

I don't think anyone has actually advocated using an unlabeled non-cannister grade powder in this thread, but it made me think, with all the new handloaders we see in this forum that a caution was in order.

Knowing what powder the factory used in that last twenty round box of 150 grain Remington Core-Lokt you bought is not going to provide you any shortcut to loading a factory duplication load. You are going to need to work it up from the low end anyway.

Just a thought.

Here is an excerpt from a good post by member rcorbitt, posted Sep 10, 2008, on http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum that addresses the subject of salvaging surplus non-cannister grade powders, just in case any one has the bright idea of trying it:

Non-canister powders are those produced for the ammunition industry &/or military use. They have a much wider range of tolerance for performance specs, as each ammunition manufacturer will sample the batch and conduct internal ballistics testing (concerning velocity/pressure curves, residue, bore erosion, temperature stability, etc.) before accepting the lot. Non-canister powders are often produced and used in 50,000-lb lots, shipped in railroad tank cars. If any two lots of non-canister powders are identical, it's an accident or a miracle.

Here is a link to the entire thread there on that forum: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum...&jump_to=25075. See post #9.

[Lonewulff]

let me expand upon my original intentions:
i was planning on buying the cheap .308 ammo at wally world and pulling the bullets to obtain the primed cases. then i was going to use most likely Varget or IMR-4064 and shoot hornady 150gr boattail spire point. then i was just curious if i could just use the original powder and use it instead of the canister powder. just measure the factory powder going back in to a tighter tolerance than what a mass production round is loaded. and it was just curiosity on what they used, not going to attempt to duplicate it, heck its cheaper to just buy the ammo at wal-mart than do all that.

[Bud Helms]

I guess as long as you measure a few of the charge weights you dump out and get an average, there should be no harm in reusing that powder 1) under the same bullet weight, 2) in those cases, 3) with those same primers, 4) seated to the same depth. If it were me doing this I would want a bullet design very much like what was pulled.

So when all is said and done, if you buy store ammo and change the bullets, you will need to insure neck tension is reestablished.

It sounds like the only thing you are trying to get out of having to do is resize and prime a fired case. You at least need to partially resize to insure neck tension, charge the case and seat the bullet.

All this just to keep from priming a fired case. I just don't see the economy, considering the effort. Why?

4) the whole point of this experiment was to take cheap bullets yank out the tips and put in better tips and use them for target practice.

For plinking just shoot what you have bought. No need for special bullets.

What kind of rifle?

Define target practice.

I think this is the handloading analogy for spinning your tires while stuck in a mudhole.

[Lonewulff]

a remington 700 sps varmint with a 26" 1:12 spin. currently its in the original stock, modified so the barrel is truely free floated, as it was not floated strait out of the box.
and only economy part of it, i cant find large rifle primers, nearly a 3 month waiting list at cabelas and all local spots that would sell primers within 200 miles that i know about are dry. i could buy them on gunbroker at like 200% mark up but not likely. had my local dealer call his supplier, they nearly laughed him off the phone, said primers a better than gold atm.

[Unclenick]

When M14's still ruled the National Match roost, but before M852 was made, the practice of pulling the 173 grain FMJ match bullets from M118 and replacing them with the 168 grain Sierra MatchKings to make "Mexican Match" was common in matches where the rules allowed it. I'd heard the term "Mexican Match" came from it having first been first done at a shooting event held in Mexico, but can't find any verification of that. Whatever the origin of the name, it worked pretty well. Nothing needed to be done the the necks. They spring back well-enough after pulling the bullet.

I've also pulled M2 ball and replaced the bullets with 150 grain SMK's. It much improves the accuracy, but it is also a change from a heavily and often asymmetrically crimp indented bullet to an unscathed one. The propellant was spherical the last time I did this. Even so, the weight extreme spread was about a grain, so collecting it in one place and re-dispensing it to the average weight from a good measure is worthwhile.

[Bud Helms]

Then, what I would do is pull three or four bullets from the store bought ammo. Weigh the bullets carefully. Dump the powder and keep the charges segregated. Buy some lighter weight bullets of the same design as near as possible. Same design exactly if possible: the base shape, length of bearing surface and ogive are what is important. How deep you seat these bullets could lead to big problems, so I'd make a scratch mark on one of the bullets you are pulling before you pull it ... right at the end of the neck. Make a scratch mark on the new bullets at the same distance from the base end. Be meticulously accurate with these markings. Don't seat the new bullets past that mark.

Load 'em up and shoot 'em at your own risk.

Note: this is NOT a recommended practice.

[Bud Helms]

Unclenick has a point. You could minimize slight errors in charge by doing that.

Mind you I have done this thing you are trying to do, but there are some things you try for yourself that you just hate recommending to others. 'Know what I mean?

[Jim Watson]

Another thing is that whatever they are using in the ammo you have now, it might be different next month. Powder is contracted for on performance and price, so somebody else might put in the low bid next month.

Not all ammunition is loaded with bulk lot powders unlike the cannister lots sold retail. Hornady loads the 6.5 Creedmoor with H4350 so the factory load can be duplicated by handloading. They could just as easily have bought a truckload of H4350 v1.1 to start, then adjusted the factory load to the same velocity with the next batch of H4350 v1.2 but did not because they wanted to be able to advertise that you can duplicate the factory load to the grain.

[Lonewulff]

k. after reviewing all the data...imma just yank the bullets, feed the factory powder to my rose bushes, use my own powder and bullets for the primed cases. sounds a little more iffy than it first seemed to be. which is why i asked in the first place i just hope the dealers round here, northwest florida btw, get some large rifle primers in stock on a day i got some money in the bank to spare.

[Colorado Redneck]

I ordered primers last summer, and ordered a bunch. Then while I waited 2 months, bought some (and got screwed but needed the darned things NOW) 1-200 at a time from a local retailer that rations stuff like that out. He won't sell a bunch to anyone right now, as his regular customers come in whining and needing something (like I did) and he goes to the vault and brings it out. The few bucks that he charged over the usual price was worth it, cause it was the heart of prairie dog shooting around here, and if I didn't buy from him, I didn't go shooting. So what I am saying is, order them and order twice as many as you think you need if you can afford to. Then when you get'em, you're good for a long time.

I keep hearing that this "shortage" is going to ease up, but the other night I was looking at Midway and they are backordered on darn near everykind of ammo you can imagine. Is this still Obama gun control fear?

[Unclenick]

It's definitely easing up. I was in Gander Mountain yesterday and at least one brand of every primer size was on the shelf with no limit notice. Lots of powder back in stock, too. Hasn't been like that for many moons.

[micksis86]

That's odd because here in Australia we have no shortage of primers I would have thought that we would be affected before you guys were. But maybe they just had alot in stock.

[Teuthis]

As a 30 year plus handloader, I long ago realized that loading for my individual firearms, for accuracy and pleasure was more important than trying to reach some maximum velocity for a specific caliber, or duplicate factory velocities. I have had many years of enjoyoment, finding the most accurate loads for a wide range of calibers and firearms. A handloader can exceed factory accuracy and enjoy achieving it.

Factory loadings must be recalculated with each bulk of product received. We handloaders can use our cannister powders with confidence, knowing that the pressures are consistent from cannister to cannister.

I am still finding primers difficult to obtain overall. I have been fortunate to recently find pistol primers, which is what I am mostly loading right now; but they are still hard to obtain. I think many people are still hoarding unprecidented amounts of primers. I can get rifle primers in small amounts, but even they are not always available.

Manufacturers are not going to re-tool to increase production for what they realize is a short-term run on reloading supplies. So we will have to live with shortages until people stop their panic buying and hoarding. It was like this in the Viet Nam era, only not this bad, because fewer people handloaded and there was a genuine shortage of components because of military requirements. When I came back I could not find any components and actually stopped loading for several years.