"No good answer" hypothetical road block

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, these things only happen in certain cities. All of these cities are controlled by a single political party. If you go to those cities and run over/shoot their cannon fodder, you’ll be prosecuted for it.

If you don’t go to those cities, you won’t have any trouble because people won’t be standing on the highway like retards.*

*Says the guy who drives right into the heart of a constant ongoing protest every damn day since 5/30.

[TunnelRat]

You’re not going to convince me that the driver in question was either directly threatened or had no choice. This was pretty damn deliberate. I could care less whether the protesters in this case were card carrying members of the Communist Party. This was not self defense and is absolutely worthy of prosecution, cannon fodder or no. We can keep going back and forth until this horse is unrecognizable, but there’s not much point. I’ll stop responding to this particular exchange.


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[ghbucky]

Y'all completely missed the point of me bringing up that incident where the guy drove into the people on the freeway.

Many other states also have laws that say anyone participating in a felony that results in a death can be charged with murder for that death. The usual example is an armed robbery in which someone is killed. In that case, any and all accomplices, whether or not they actually pulled the trigger, can be charged with and tried for felony murder. I wonder how that might extend to a situation in which someone's vehicle is attacked and the driver has to run over a "peaceful protester" to escape. If the "peaceful protester" is killed, could the other 50 or 100 or 500 "peaceful protesters" be charged with his/her murder?

In this event, the people on the highway were in the act of committing a crime when someone was killed. They were not charged.

So the answer to this question is: not in Washington.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

Y'all completely missed the point of me bringing up that incident where the guy drove into the people on the freeway.



In this event, the people on the highway were in the act of committing a crime when someone was killed. They were not charged.

So the answer to this question is: not in Washington.

No I get that. My original comment was merely that given the circumstances of this case I’m not sure this was a good candidate of a case where you would hold the crowd partially accountable. Bart and I then had our back and forth.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by ghbucky

In this event, the people on the highway were in the act of committing a crime when someone was killed. They were not charged.

But the driver wasn't being threatened. I'm not sure just blocking a highway constitutes a felony. I'm inclined to suspect that it's at most a misdemeanor, and maybe only a civil infraction. I think that the provision to which I referred above only applies in the case of felonies -- and I have no idea how many states may have such a provision.

[Sharkbite]

Getting back to the OP’s question/statement...

I think the key here is to do what is reasonable. Not what a bunch of guys on a gun forum think is ok, but what a group of potential Jurors would think was reasonable.

My take on it is this...
People pounding on your hood, trunk, roof and causing damage...call you Ins co after the event. Someone trying to breach the car by breaking the window...skinny pedal on the right.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

TunnelRat isn’t wrong about the legal consequences. We simply disagree about the morality.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

If you don’t go to those cities, you won’t have any trouble because people won’t be standing on the highway like retards.*

Don't bet the ranch. I don't live anywhere near one of "those cities." Nonetheless, I think it was two weekends ago a bunch of retards blocked a major Interstate highway interchange in a [very] small city fifteen miles to the north of me. It's a good thing I have been hibernating to try to stay clear of COVID-19 because, pre-coronavirus, it's very possible that on a weekend afternoon or evening I would be driving through that interchange.

[TBM900]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Well, these things only happen in certain cities. All of these cities are controlled by a single political party.

If you don’t go to those cities, you won’t have any trouble because people won’t be standing on the highway like retards.*

Clearly you aren't a student of history... or even current.

[TXAZ]

DON’T. BE. THERE.
(situational awareness).
Problem solved.

[5whiskey]

But the driver wasn't being threatened. I'm not sure just blocking a highway constitutes a felony. I'm inclined to suspect that it's at most a misdemeanor, and maybe only a civil infraction. I think that the provision to which I referred above only applies in the case of felonies -- and I have no idea how many states may have such a provision.

AB I haven’t studied every single states laws and procedures, but most states have a felony murder procedure. It’s usually incorporated in 2nd degree murder statutes. And it almost always requires that the death occur during the commission of a felony, and in some cases certain types of felonies.

The guy in discussion plowing through the protestors on the freeway INTENTIONALLY is criminally wrong imo. And I’m sure he sees that now. At the same time... it is a fair assumption that playing stupid games (like setting up an illegal road block on an interstate at night) will win stupid prizes (like being hit by a car).

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

AB I haven’t studied every single states laws and procedures, but most states have a felony murder procedure. It’s usually incorporated in 2nd degree murder statutes. And it almost always requires that the death occur during the commission of a felony, and in some cases certain types of felonies.

The guy in discussion plowing through the protestors on the freeway INTENTIONALLY is criminally wrong imo. And I’m sure he sees that now. At the same time... it is a fair assumption that playing stupid games (like setting up an illegal road block on an interstate at night) will win stupid prizes (like being hit by a car).

The highway in question had been closed (seemingly by the police according to the story that was linked and this article from a local station says it was Washington State Patrol troopers https://komonews.com/news/local/dawi...-i-5-protester). The driver had to drive up an exit ramp to get there.

We’ve had incidents where indeed protesters that wandered onto active highways were hit by drivers of vehicles unaware of what was happening. Playing in the street can indeed have bad results, but this wasn’t some tragic accident or case of self defense. Absent a spate of temporary insanity or confusion (drug induced or not) this appears to be deliberate. Some people may argue there is no difference between the two situations I described. We’ll have to wait on the court ruling.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

AB I haven’t studied every single states laws and procedures, but most states have a felony murder procedure. It’s usually incorporated in 2nd degree murder statutes. And it almost always requires that the death occur during the commission of a felony, and in some cases certain types of felonies.

Yes, I'm aware of such laws, and those are the laws to which I was referring. The point is, someone asked why the demonstrators who were blocking the road hadn't been charged with murder, since they were committing an illegal act and it resulted in someone dying.

And my point was that, even if the state where this occurred has such a law, these laws typically apply (as your posts states) to cases involving the commission of a felony. And I don't think blocking a highway is a felony ... therefore, even if the state has such a law, it would not apply in this case.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Clearly you aren't a student of history... or even current

I do my best. I wasn’t able to follow a lot of the news because last week I was reviewing bodycam from riot arrests from five major cities and revising ROE.

[5whiskey]

AB I was simply supporting/agreeing with you when you said this...

I think that the provision to which I referred above only applies in the case of felonies -- and I have no idea how many states may have such a provision.

Playing in the street can indeed have bad results, but this wasn’t some tragic accident or case of self defense.

Which is why I said that the defendant who INTENTIONALLY plowed through protestors was criminally wrong. I did not know, however, that law enforcement had shut the freeway down. The driver is going to take his ride down the criminal justice system I believe. Especially if that’s the case.

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Well, these things only happen in certain cities. All of these cities are controlled by a single political party. If you go to those cities and run over/shoot their cannon fodder, you’ll be prosecuted for it.

If you don’t go to those cities, you won’t have any trouble because people won’t be standing on the highway like retards.*

*Says the guy who drives right into the heart of a constant ongoing protest every damn day since 5/30.

I pretty much agree with this. I'm a guy that will shoot and leave, take my chances but more important is I never go into area's that might happen. You go into one of those city's you really need to be aware of what's going on around you and avoid anything that even has a slim chance of getting messy. But if you find yourself there, defend yourself!

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, variations of this scenario played out in a couple of places last night. A car drove into a crowd of protesters on the sidewalk at a “Back the Blue” rally in Denver. In Austin a car tried to drive down a street blocked by protesters and ended up getting swarmed. One of the protesters ran up on the vehicle armed with an AK and got shot.

In both cases video of the incident was online before the police had even finished their investigation.

[ghbucky]

A car drove into a crowd of protesters on the sidewalk at a “Back the Blue” rally in Denver.

I can't find any mention of this anywhere. Link?

Not really clear to me what happened in the Austin case;
https://twitter.com/WxBrenn/status/1287232547118886912

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Here’s the Colorado event, I guess it was Eaton, not Denver.
https://www.greeleytribune.com/2020/...-turns-tragic/

There was also an incident in Aurora where a Jeep drove down a street “closed” by protesters and the protesters fired at it, striking another protester.

There’s still a lot of confusion over what happened in the Austin event; but everyone seems to agree a car tried to drive through the protest. Protesters swarmed it. Shots were fired One of those protesters, who was carrying an AK, was shot and died. The driver of the vehicle was taken into custody by police and was cooperating.

It certainly looks like a realistic concern. I’m reminded of the line from 1984’s “WarGames.” The only winning move is not to play.

[JohnKSa]

I’m reminded of the line from 1984’s “WarGames.” The only winning move is not to play.

Yup. There are certainly problems that don't have a solution. The only rational reaction is to avoid that kind of a problem in the first place.

[thallub]

Most crowds of protesters are visible from some distance away. Do a U turn and bug out.

[thallub]

This Austin, TX driver driver drove into a crowd. Someone pointed a rifle at the driver who shot and killed the rifleman.

STIN, Texas -- Police have identified an armed protester who was shot and killed by a person who had driven into a crowd at a demonstration against police violence in the Texas capital.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...texas-71993218

[Aguila Blanca]

Some recent posts have disappeared. I completely understand and agree that we are seeing some very concerning events these days, and that most of us feel a desire -- perhaps even a need -- to discuss them, or maybe just to vent. That said, this discussion area is Training and Tactics. This is definitely not the place to drag politics into the discussion.

If you want to discuss other aspects of current events, and if your comments fit the guidelines of Law & Civil Rights, please feel free to open or join a discussion there. Before posting, however, please review the criteria for Law & Civil Rights.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I’d note one tactic I’ve seen protesters use across different cities in different videos. They are frequently divided into two, sometimes three, groups - a “vanguard” and a “main” group, with an occasional rearguard. I don’t know if this just reflects a tendency of marchers to straggle; but in the one incident I personally witnessed, the vanguard was putting down traffic cones with taped off tops to block traffic on sidestreets. In that incident, they were maybe 100-150m ahead of the main group and the tactic was ineffective because people drove over the traffic cones and through the gap between groups as soon as the light turned green.

In the Austin incident, it looks like the vanguard was putting out “road guards” similar to the military to accomplish the same goal. You can see the driver sitting at a green light waiting for the vanguard to pass. However the road guards left as soon as the light turned red and before the main group arrived. Given that it was a narrowish road (two lanes with parking) surrounded by tall buildings on all sides, there were a few blind spots. And if the driver was gawking at the circus that just passed him instead of his direction of travel (which people tend to do anyway in order to avoid traffic), then he may not have realized his error until it was too late.

So, in planning, I’d just be aware that there may be multiple groups of protesters and plan for that when assessing a problem.

[Eddiejoe]

Yesterday, my wife an I were going from one end of the valley (in Phoenix) to the other. Our route on a highway took us past an unusual gathering of police vehicles...one by itself, then a mile later approximately 5 parked nose to tail between exits, and then 3 more about half a mile further down the road. At this last location, members of law enforcement were out of the vehicles and displaying long guns, and looking over the far right wall. As we moved past this, my wife and I discussed it. Who were they looking for? What was going on? Etc.

On our way back, I was reminded of the situation because one of the message boards stated a particular exit was closed. We were both armed. I chose to drive the long way round to get home. It turns out that protests got unruly in that area.

If I have the opportunity, I will go far out of my way to avoid confrontations of this kind. I would make the same choice whether I am alone, or responsible for passengers.