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Old August 6, 2020, 12:43 PM   #76
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Doubling the MSRP of a handgun during a time when it's readily apparent that so many folks in the country right now think having a gun for protection is a necessity(as I believe most of us here do too), is a far cry from ethical.
So, it is then ethical to jack up the price of a handgun when there isn't a buying "panic"?



Because we've seen that kind of thing happen when there was just a "popular demand" and not a "panic". And we've seen it with guns when the "panic" wasn't a need for a gun to defend self, but a need to get one "before the ban".

Prices on CERTAIN guns did effectively double, during those times, and there was no general complaint about gouging or unethical behavior. Yes, people did grumble about the high cost, BUT they accepted it as the cost of getting what they wanted, in their hands, NOW.

Back in the early 70s when Dirty Harry made the S&W 44 mag THE gun to get, demand was so high the factory was two YEARS backordered. People paid as much as double MSRP to get one in their hands, without the wait.

During the panic before the 94AWB, I put my last AR (and a clone, at that) on consignment in a local shop. I had $450 into the gun. The shop sold it for $900. The guy who bought it was happy, the shop was happy, and I was happy. Was that unethical???
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Old August 6, 2020, 02:56 PM   #77
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Why does it cost more than 1 cent to buy a 1943 steel penny? Or more than $20 to buy a $20 Gold coin?

Is that ethical,or gouging? I know,its ridiculous. Point is,the value is subjective.
And I would retain free choice to buy or not buy.

Someone here is an advocate for regulations. This same person says (rightly so,IMO) that pharmacutical companies are gouging.

OK. Example,my eye Dr prescribe some drops. I went to my local chain grocery store pharmacy. The pharmacists eyebrows went up. For a 5 ml bottle of mostly water,my co-pay was $300 :Lets see,5 ml that means x20 for 100 ml ..$6000 for 100 ml,or $60,000 a liter. Oh but wait...Thats my copay.I don't know exactly,did I pay 20% ? So X 5 would be $300,000 a litre..but remember,its mostly water.
AND,we don't no what the priceless material is .It was for borderline glaucoma.Maybe some pot extract.

Seem like gouging? Ahhh,but the cost of development and approval!! Must be recovered!!!. OK. That is cost generated by over regulation.

Where is violence using guns most appalling? In the most gun regulated places!!

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Old August 6, 2020, 03:01 PM   #78
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Downright silly debate. Neither system in its pure form works.

No, no one would moan about someone making a $400 profit on a Lazy-Boy.

Just as almost anyone with half a brain would call charging $50 for a gallon of gas right before a hurricane hits price gouging. It's an essential necessity you say? Well, most States say the same for guns and ammo based on their Covid guidelines.

Now shut up - go outside and shoot!
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Old August 6, 2020, 03:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Onward Allusion View Post
...
Just as almost anyone with half a brain would call charging $50 for a gallon of gas right before a hurricane hits price gouging. It's an essential necessity you say? Well, most States say the same for guns and ammo based on their Covid guidelines.

Now shut up - go outside and shoot!
Under the right situation, I'd pay $500 for a gallon of gas and thank the guy...
It really depends, if it's a lifesaving measure, evey $1000 might be cheap if it contributes to a positive outcome.
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Old August 6, 2020, 04:20 PM   #80
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You got it brother. No absolutes. It all depends.
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Old August 6, 2020, 08:14 PM   #81
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You have 8 pounds of gold, traveling across the desert and are dying of thirst. You run into someone who has an 8# gallon of water which he will trade you for ounce for ounce... Fair trade? Is it worth $2000/oz in order to not die? Some here would say the water guy was gouging.......was he?

The only folks here whinging about high prices are the ones who didn't get in ahead of the curve so they could make a profit.
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Old August 7, 2020, 12:35 AM   #82
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I am reminded of a story from the days before "survivalists" were called "preppers". Has to do with the relative value of things.

One fellow does the "smart" thing, and invests in gold. Buys all the Krugeraands he can. Then the big crash comes...and he's hungry.

He finds a farmer who still has some chickens, and wants one. Farmer says, "what do you got to trade?" Guy says "I got Krugerrands, each one is an ounce of gold!"

Farmer says "ok, you give me half a dozen, I'll give you A chicken." Guys says "that's insane. each of these is an ounce of gold!!"

Farmer replies, "well, just consider it an expensive chicken!"

Same story goes on, another guy shows up, wanting a chicken....
Farmer says "what you got to trade?"
Guy says, "I got half a box of shells that fit your .30-30 rifle.."
Farmer says, "how many chickens do you want??"

Point here is that while you can put any price tag on anything you want, its VALUE is dependent on the situation.

And, the seller and potential buyer can be in very different situations.
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Old August 7, 2020, 02:42 PM   #83
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Point here is that while you can put any price tag on anything you want, its VALUE is dependent on the situation.
I know of a woman prepper/survivalist who stocks fine Kentucky bourbon as her medium of exchange.

I'm in the camp that thinks it is technically not "gouging" if the price of a non-essential product is increased quite a bit during a panic, disaster, etc. But, I do keep track of those who tremendously increase the price on the non-essential items and I usually don't do business with them in the futre. I feel the same way if a company is within their legal rights, but still screws me.

Customer service, which includes fair pricing, breeds customer loyalty. The American automobile manufacturers forgot about this decades ago, opening the door for Japanese and German imports in the 1970s and 80s for the everyday person. That doesn't mean prices don't legitimately rise because of increased demand, but some businesses let profiteering guide their practices. It may be good in the short run, but not so good in the long run.
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Old August 7, 2020, 06:20 PM   #84
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Question:
if the current high demand & limited supply is price gouging,
what was it called just before the China-flu arrived when the supply exceed demand and prices were depressed?

I just call them “sellers’ markets” and “buyers’ markets”.
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Old August 7, 2020, 08:51 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by cc-hangfire View Post
Question:
if the current high demand & limited supply is price gouging,
what was it called just before the China-flu arrived when the supply exceed demand and prices were depressed?

I just call them “sellers’ markets” and “buyers’ markets”.
I call it "free enterprise", where the market adapted and the sellers provided product to the best of their abilities, and a price that was decided by buyers willing to pay for the goods and services.
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Old August 7, 2020, 09:14 PM   #86
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I propose KyJim be immediately banned for the crime of interjecting common sense into an otherwise good Internet fight,
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Old August 8, 2020, 09:14 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by KyJim View Post
I'm in the camp that thinks it is technically not "gouging" if the price of a non-essential product is increased quite a bit during a panic, disaster, etc. But, I do keep track of those who tremendously increase the price on the non-essential items and I usually don't do business with them in the futre. I feel the same way if a company is within their legal rights, but still screws me.
When the last large batch of Makarov pistols was imported I made a deal with one of the importers and hand picked a number of them for $100/ea
I have been selling them as of late for $550/ea*

Would that be considered "screwing" to you?
Would you "keep track" of me?
Do tell...
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Old August 8, 2020, 01:42 PM   #88
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KyJim
..... I do keep track of those who tremendously increase the price on the non-essential items and I usually don't do business with them in the futre. I feel the same way if a company is within their legal rights, but still screws me.
Huh?
You can't be screwed if you JUST DON'T BUY FROM THEM!!!
"Screwing" usually means a seller sold you a defective or misrepresented product or forced you to buy.

Buyers remorse for overpaying? That's not the same as being screwed.




Quote:
Customer service, which includes fair pricing, breeds customer loyalty.
"fair pricing"? Who are you to determine whats "fair pricing? You don't know what the sellers wholesale cost was, you don't know what price he needs to turn a profit, nor do you in short you are wholly and totally ignorant of what "fair pricing" really means.

You equate fair pricing with what price you are willing to pay, with what the item may have sold for in the past or what others are selling the same item for.

WalMart often sells ammunition cheaper than my wholesale cost at a distributor. I expect to make a profit, so if my price is higher the WalMart......am I screwing the buyer? NO I'M NOT.



Quote:
The American automobile manufacturers forgot about this decades ago, opening the door for Japanese and German imports in the 1970s and 80s for the everyday person.
Fair pricing had less to do with the decline of American automobiles than the decrease in quality. Frankly, the Japanese did everything better.



Quote:
That doesn't mean prices don't legitimately rise because of increased demand, but some businesses let profiteering guide their practices. It may be good in the short run, but not so good in the long run.
Now we've gone from "gouging" to "profiteering".
Name the businesses that let profiteering guide their practices. Waiting for a pandemic, election panic, rioting in the streets panic to sell your product? DOES NOT HAPPEN. It doesn't happen because those events don't happen with regularity.

Businesses are in business to make a profit. That's what guides a business. When it doesn't, it won't be in business for long.
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Old August 8, 2020, 01:44 PM   #89
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Bartholomew Roberts I propose KyJim be immediately banned for the crime of interjecting common sense into an otherwise good Internet fight,

Sorry, all I read was complaining based on emotion, feels and absolutely no business sense.
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Old August 8, 2020, 07:27 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Sorry, all I read was complaining based on emotion, feels and absolutely no business sense.
I offer a hearty "well said" to both of your above posts
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Old August 8, 2020, 09:21 PM   #91
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Quote:
The American automobile manufacturers forgot about this decades ago, opening the door for Japanese and German imports in the 1970s and 80s for the everyday person.
Fair pricing had less to do with the decline of American automobiles than the decrease in quality. Frankly, the Japanese did everything better.
Why did the Japanese do so well after WWII? An American: Deming- they listened, the US auto unions did not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
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Old August 9, 2020, 09:24 AM   #92
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You can't be screwed if you JUST DON'T BUY FROM THEM!!!
Exactly. And if I find their business practices ridiculous, like say CTD, I’ll continue not to buy from them even when prices return to normal. Which is the point I understood KyJim to be making.

But CTD can afford to think like that because they aren’t trying to build customer loyalty so they don’t care. Same with Botach. Both of them build their business model on volume and discount and expect to replace any angry customers with new ones.

However, IIRC even CTD went crying when their storefront in Plano got ran out of business and they wanted the same customers they’d been vigorously hosing to rise up and defend them.
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Old August 9, 2020, 12:58 PM   #93
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Bartholomew Roberts
....However, IIRC even CTD went crying when their storefront in Plano got ran out of business and they wanted the same customers they’d been vigorously hosing to rise up and defend them.
You might want to check your facts.
I've lived in Plano since 1999 and CTD has never had a store here.
They've had stores in Ft Worth, Austin and the closest to me was in McKinney.
I don't recall CTD "being run out of business" or asking anyone, anywhere to defend them. They went out of business for the same reason most retail brick and mortar gun shops go out of business:
Poor understanding of the marketplace.
Terrible store location.
Pricing unable to compete with the internet.


Cheaper Than Dirt Guns were retail stores that had little to do with the CTD mail order/web order business. Two different owners.
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Old August 9, 2020, 04:50 PM   #94
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Meh, everything north of Richardson is basically Plano now until you get to Melissa . We’ll compromise and call it McPlanallen.

As I recall, they tried to reach out to customers on their blog to protest either a refusal to renew their lease or some code issue with McKinney and were roundly mocked; but I could be mixing them up with someone else.

The point remains, customer loyalty is not the branding strategy they are pursuing. And I won’t deal with them for that reason alone, just like I won’t buy from Botach or any one of a dozen places that pursue that strategy.
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Old August 9, 2020, 09:04 PM   #95
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Bartholomew Roberts Meh, everything north of Richardson is basically Plano now until you get to Melissa . We’ll compromise and call it McPlanallen.
Sure. Meh. Whatever.

Quote:
As I recall, they tried to reach out to customers on their blog to protest either a refusal to renew their lease or some code issue with McKinney and were roundly mocked; but I could be mixing them up with someone else.
The same McKinney code that has another gun store 80yds away? Sure it was.



Quote:
The point remains, customer loyalty is not the branding strategy they are pursuing. And I won’t deal with them for that reason alone, just like I won’t buy from Botach or any one of a dozen places that pursue that strategy.
Customer loyalty will cause a business to fail faster than anything. Just ask Circuit City, Best Buy, JC Penney, Sears and every other brick and mortar retailer that pinned hopes on retaining customer "loyalty". Low pricing just to get your business may not keep you in business.

When you base your "loyalty" on pricing alone without any understanding of the business involved you get Amazon.

And I find it odd that you would mention Botach........consistently one of the cheaper places to buy firearm accessories and exactly opposite of the pricing schemes at Cheaper Than Dirt. Their problem is fulfilling orders.
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Old August 9, 2020, 10:06 PM   #96
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I think this one has been winding down for awhile now. Maybe it's time...
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