Misiformation on the local news about "legal gun ownership."

[Colorado Redneck]

This was a news item on the local Foxnews channel:

https://kdvr.com/2019/03/17/denver-p...-illegal-guns/

If you get the gun through proper means, it's registered, and you're a responsible owner, we have no issue with that."

Its illegal to require gun registration in Colorado. This quote was a policeman saying such. These mistatements are dangerous sources of gobbledygook for the uneducated. I own several firearms that were purcased privately. How are the cops going to determine that they are "legally" my property?

[Ridgerunner665]

Most people believe the 4473 form is due registration.... Hell, even I thought it was up until about 1990.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Colorado Redneck

This was a news item on the local Foxnews channel:

https://kdvr.com/2019/03/17/denver-p...-illegal-guns/



Its illegal to require gun registration in Colorado. This quote was a policeman saying such. These mistatements are dangerous sources of gobbledygook for the uneducated. I own several firearms that were purcased privately. How are the cops going to determine that they are "legally" my property?

Don't watch that station but 'perhaps' he meant the part that's 'registered' is the person who is approved via the CBI background check. As for the bolded..the 'cops' and the 'government' don't know which guns you acquired, privately, before it became illegal to do so in 2013. AND even after 2013, you must do a BGC, but the actual 'gun' isn't registered..
Today, if these are acquired from 'immediate family', nobody knows what you(or I), own. I have acquired 2 from 'immediate family..

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

As for the bolded..the 'cops' and the 'government' don't know which guns you acquired, privately, before it became illegal to do so in 2013.

Several states had in place different schemes requiring either reporting of all sales to the state police, or reporting all sales through FFLs to the state police, long before 2013. On the PAFAO (Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association) forum, for example, it is a frequent topic of discussion. PA law requires that all sales of handguns by FFLs be reported to the State Police. Private sales don't have to be and, of course, anyone who moves into Pennsylvania with firearms is not required to "register" previously owned firearms. Nonetheless, many local police departments around PA persist in running any firearm they encounter against the State Police database, and if the gun isn't on the database they confiscate it because it's not "registered" and therefore is assumed to be stolen.

In Connecticut, as another example, even private sales of handguns required a background check and sale authorization from the state police, and a report of the sale to the state police, dating back at least to 1990. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook school shooting, the requirement was expanded from handguns to also include private sales of long guns (rifles and shotguns).

Always keep in mind that the United States has 51 jurisdictions -- 50 states plus the District of Columbia. Especially with respect to firearms laws, there are no one-size-fits-all answers.

[DaleA]

Augila Blanco-good grief!
So in PA, if I moved there and the police checked my guns and they were not in their database as belonging to me (and they would NOT be in the PA database) and they confiscated them how would I get them back? I mean, I do NOT have sales receipts for them any more.

What a terrible over reach!

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by DaleA

So in PA, if I moved there and the police checked my guns and they were not in their database as belonging to me (and they would NOT be in the PA database) and they confiscated them how would I get them back? I mean, I do NOT have sales receipts for them any more.

That's the problem.

Pennsylvania apparently has a law that says the state police cannot maintain a firearms registry. This situation has been litigated, and the courts in Pennsylvania have ruled that the state police database is not illegal because it's not a "registry," since it isn't a complete database of all firearms transfers and doesn't include all firearms in the state. Nonetheless, some municipal departments run all firearms encountered against the registry that's not a registry.

The situation may have changed in the past year or two -- I confess that I haven't followed it closely.

[Colorado Redneck]

When that story ran on the evening news, my wife asked me if all our guns are registered. Ummmm...nope. so the conversation was not convincing her, and showed her this:

Colorado gun laws do not require the registration of any particular type of firearm. ... Like other states in the United States, Colorado law prohibit the possession of firearms to those individuals who have been convicted of a felony or of a misdemeanor pertaining to domestic violence.
Colorado Gun Laws - Gun | Laws.com

https://gun.laws.com/state-gun-laws/colorado-gun-laws

A buddy of mine that hunts, shoots, owns guns forever, obtained his concealed carry permit not long ago. He had to do the obligatory one day training. After he was awarded the permit, he said something about all guns being registered. He evidently misunderstood the instructor or was misinformed. It is disturbing that this myth is floating around. If people truly believe most firearms are already registered, its only a small step to agreeing to legislation requiring registration.

[Theohazard]

It’s not suprising that the police officer on that program got it wrong. Judging by customer questions in the two states where I’ve worked at gun shops, a majority of gun buyers think there’s a state or national firearm registry (neither states had a registry).

[jmr40]

The term "registered" has become a euphemism for "legally owned". While not technically accurate it is almost as pointless as arguing about the difference between a clip and a magazine. I see the same mistake made often, but it no longer bothers me.

[rickyrick]

A good number of people outside of the shooting community think all firearms are registered. I assume this comes from crime shows and stuff.

[MoArk Willy]

If you purchase a gun through an FFL holder it is accompanied with a form 4473 and a background check. That form has all of your information and is kept at the FFL holders place of business. It can be accessed anytime by authorities if the need arises.
If anyone thinks that isn't registration then what exactly is it?
That specific gun has a paper trail leading to a specific owner.

[rickyrick]

Many cases, only the original purchasers are on the form, but you can give or sell a weapon to another person with no paperwork. A gun can change hands many times in a few years.

[dogtown tom]

MoArk Willy If you purchase a gun through an FFL holder it is accompanied with a form 4473 and a background check. That form has all of your information and is kept at the FFL holders place of business.

It only has the information on the first buyer/transferee. If the firearm ever changes owners after leaving that first dealer....the Form 4473 isn't going to show who the current owner is.

It can be accessed anytime by authorities if the need arises.

Well, first the "authorities" would have to know which licensed dealer is in possession of a particular Form 4473.

If anyone thinks that isn't registration then what exactly is it?

Right at the top of the Form 4473 it says what it is...."Firearms Transaction Record".
It is a record of a transaction between a licensed dealer and the buyer/transferee.

It isn't remotely the same as firearm registration. No Federal law/ATF regulation requires that transactions between nonlicensees be recorded or that background checks be performed. A firearm can be sold or traded days/weeks/months/years later without notifying anyone.

In states with firearm REGISTRATION, they may require notifying the state/city/county when a firearm is transferred between nonlicensees. Allen buys a gun at a gun store, its registered by the state to him. In the future he sells to Bob and either Allen or Bob must notify or register the transfer with the state/city/county. Same if Bob later decides to sell or trade to Carl.

That specific gun has a paper trail leading to a specific owner.

Well, no it doesn't.
The form 4473 is a record of the transaction between dealer and customer, not every subsequent owner of that gun.

If the gun is new:
If an LE agency runs a firearms trace with ATF National Tracing Center, the NTC will contact the manufacturer, then the distributor then the dealer who will fax in the Form 4473 for that transaction. ATF NTC will then try and contact the buyer and if the buyer had sold/gifted/traded the gun and has the new owners contact info ATF NTC MAY be able to continue the trace. But if that first original buyer doesn't have info on who he sold it to? the trace ends there. THERE IS NO PAPER TRAIL AFTER LEAVING THE DEALER.

If the gun was used:
Pretty much the dealer will never hear from ATF NTC. The "paper trail" was broken the first time one nonlicensee sold or traded to another nonlicensee.

And what about gun traces on firearms manufactured before 1968? Being that the Form 4473 didn't exist prior to 1968 there is little point in contacting the manufacturer. That's untold millions of guns that can't be traced to a Form 4473.

Not to mention the fact that the dealer can destroy any form 4473's in his possession after twenty years. So even if you think the 4473 is registration, you really are stretching to make that claim when the dealer can lawfully destroy his old forms.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by jmr40

The term "registered" has become a euphemism for "legally owned". While not technically accurate it is almost as pointless as arguing about the difference between a clip and a magazine. I see the same mistake made often, but it no longer bothers me.

Is it a mistake?

Don't overlook the pervasive influence of the entertainment industry. I don't watch television any more, but even some years ago when I did occasionally switch it on, shows such as CSI Wherever would have a murder weapon traced to the buyer within fifteen minutes. The majority of viewers who see such nonsense on the telly believe that all firearms are registered and that it's really possible to do that.

And ... since to them registration equates to catching bad guys, most of them will be in favor of it.

[dogtown tom]

Aguila Blanca ….. The majority of viewers who see such nonsense on the telly believe that all firearms are registered and that it's really possible to do that.

You would be surprised how many gun buyers think exactly that.
(and not just new buyers, guys who have been buying guns for decades)

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

You would be surprised how many gun buyers think exactly that.

Actually, I wouldn't be at all surprised. (Unfortunately)

[TomNJVA]

Does the ATF or other law enforcement require a warrant to access the 4473 forms from the FFL?

[dogtown tom]

TomNJVA Doe the ATF or other law enforcement require a warrant to access the 4473 forms from the FFL?

ATF is limited by Federal law to one compliance inspection per year. (Rarely does a licensee get inspected that often). The inspection is limited to the licensees inventory, bound book, multiple sale forms and 4473's. It does not give ATF the ability to search your sock drawer or examine other business records.

In the event of an ATF firearm trace request, the licensee must respond within 24 hours. No warrant required because the licensee agreed to provide that when he was issued his FFL.



Section 923(g)(1) (B) states that the ATF may only inspect or examine the inventory and records of a licensee (without a search warrant) under three circumstances:
(i) in the course of a reasonable inquiry during the course of a criminal investigation of a person or persons other than the licensee;

(ii) for ensuring compliance with the record-keeping requirements of this chapter: (I) not more than once during any 12-month period; or (II) at any time with respect to records relating to a firearm involved in a criminal investigation that is traced to the licensee; or

(iii) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation.

Other than these circumstances, ATF agents must obtain a warrant from a federal judge if they want to search your store.


State or local law enforcement? Depends on your state law.

[tipoc]

In California, since 1991 (and for long guns since 2014) all sales or transfers of new or used firearms must go through a licensed FFL and the form 4473 be filled out as I understand it. This includes all PTP sales as well. The PTP sales require a face to face meet at the FFL where buyer and seller prove their identity and place of residence when the transfer is begun.

To buy a handgun you must provide a fingerprint if the buyer. Not so for a long yet on the fingerprint.

For the sale of the gun to be legal it must go through an FFL. The state keeps record of these transactions.

Since 1991, substantially all firearms transfers are required to use a California-licensed FFL. There are no legal 'paperless' or 'face to face' handgun transfers, and as of 2014, no longer any way to sell long guns FTF.

Unless you are exempt, there will be a 10-day wait from submitting the DROS until you may legally pick up your purchase.
Unless you are exempt, or purchasing a handgun via Private Party Transfer, you may purchase only one handgun in 30 days.
In both cases, the time of the waiting period begins at the time the DROS is submitted to the state.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in..._in_California

tipoc