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View Poll Results: Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety) | |||
Yep, at all times | 30 | 13.89% | |
Nope, Never | 92 | 42.59% | |
Yep, but only on the street, not in the Home/Business | 63 | 29.17% | |
I'm not ansering because I dont want to seem either wimpy or bloodthirsty | 15 | 6.94% | |
I'd rather have pic of you and Spiff iwearing spandex loincloths lard wrestling in a baby pool. | 16 | 7.41% | |
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll |
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June 17, 2009, 03:19 PM | #176 | |
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It takes a citizenry that is willing to stand up to criminals to make a real difference. The more folks run and hide and let criminals have their way, the more crime will increase. |
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June 17, 2009, 03:41 PM | #177 | |
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You're driving down the road. You see a burning vehicle that may or may not have occupants, you're not sure. You have a fire extinguisher in your car and it looks as if your intervention has a good chance of putting out the fire (I.E. it is not such a blaze that it is obvious intervention will do nothing). Do you A) try to put out the fire because you may perhaps be saving a life? or B) retreat a safe distance and wait for the fire department to handle it because it is their designated problem?
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June 17, 2009, 03:43 PM | #178 | |
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June 17, 2009, 03:45 PM | #179 |
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^^^^^^^ In reply to Sparks2112:
Do I have to kill someone to put out the fire? This is a totally different scenario.
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June 17, 2009, 03:46 PM | #180 | |
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June 17, 2009, 04:04 PM | #181 | ||
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I pointed out that we aren't talking about petty misdemeanors such as a kid shoplifting a candy bar or walking on your lawn. All of that derived from someone's post about stealing being "evil" and your examples of petty crimes. It is stipulated that not all theft is "evil" but that theft is a legally defined crime. You highlighted the "with a criminal intent" portion of the paragraph above. Obviously, instead of using the gray matter which you so obviously love to show off in some of your posts, you chose the insipid approach of putting on your best stupid look in an attempt to nit-pick the details of those 4 words. Perhaps I should have included the word "obvious" before "criminal" ... but then you would ask "obvious to whom?" or perhaps what level of criminal intent --e.g. to steal a lifesaver? Don't be a deliberate Equus asinus, WA. This mode of communications is often less-than-perfect in the meaning of terminology and continued nit-picking may result in you receiving a 2-lb bag of black pepper so you can pick the fly crap out of it. To further clarify, in case you still insist on emulating a certain former president trying to define "is" -- if a person unlawfully enters your residence with an obvious criminal intent do do harm, such as; - Enters in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, or - Enters by means of stealth or surprise, or - Commits, attempts to commit, or makes threat(s) to commit felonious act(s), or - Displays any deadly weapon, or - Menaces any person, or - With the aid of one or more persons uses threats of violence, implied or explicit, and commits or attempts to commit any crime And yes, in my poll response I did say "No Duty" only because your provided responses did not allow us to answer "Yes, under limited circumstances". You'll notice that my post explained that there ARE times when one might have a moral duty to retreat and I gave a few examples - which is not an all-inclusive, exhaustive list meant to the be the total incidental or situational universe by which a moral person would utilize the option of safe retreat to a location of sufficient security to provide complete safety. And... rather than have pic of you and Spiff wearing spandex loincloths lard wrestling in a baby pool I would rather be forced to kiss Janet Reno on the lips in public.
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June 17, 2009, 04:05 PM | #182 | |
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I'm not proposing we go out shooting people in circumstances other than self defense. I'm saying that we exercise our right to self defense first, not last. WA's original question was that if you were in a situation where you were legally allowed to shoot someone, but through some sort of divination KNEW that if you tried tried to retreat you could do so succesfully, would you still exercise your legal right to self defense? My position is that if conditions exist where you can legally shoot someone then conditions also exist where there is an obligation to make sure no one else is hurt through your own inaction.
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June 17, 2009, 04:05 PM | #183 | |
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How does that justify shooting someone who has "demonstrat[ed] themselves to be violent... [and] not letting the problem be passed on to someone else"? |
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June 17, 2009, 04:19 PM | #184 | |
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No, carrying a gun does not make one a cop. Yes, it is my job, and your job, and the job of every good citizen in this nation, to stop crime. If you see someone molesting a child do you turn and walk away claiming "I'm not a cop, it aint my job to stop crime". Police officers do NOT stop crime. Good people who are willing to stand up against criminals is what stops crime. |
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June 17, 2009, 04:25 PM | #185 | |
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But if they attempt to break in to my home and demonstate violence, then yes, they deserve to be shot. When one man makes the decision to break in to another man's home, he has also made the decision to place his life in jeopardy (especially in N.C.). Under no circumstances should anyone be morally or ethically obligated to retreat from someone who has chosen to place his life in jeopardy in order to invade another person's home, or threaten the life of another person. |
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June 17, 2009, 04:30 PM | #186 | |
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Do you know of any qualified instructors who recommend clearing a house, or doing anything other than getting to a safe place except to attend first to the safety of family members? |
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June 17, 2009, 04:38 PM | #187 | ||||
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If someone wants to help their community, they ought to be doing some form of community service along these lines. If they're not, and they just fantasize about "taking criminals off the streets," or whatever, I have serious questions about their real motivation. (This isn't directed at you, PBP -- I remember your thread about trying to enlist as a Big Brother, as I think it was?) Quote:
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Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry. Last edited by Evan Thomas; June 17, 2009 at 04:47 PM. Reason: clarification |
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June 17, 2009, 04:40 PM | #188 | |
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Our firearms instructors in the Army didn't recommend hiding and calling 911. I have noticed that most police do recommend doing just that. But in my experience, most police don't have a very high regard of armed non-police citizens at all. Some even think that they, the police, are "the thin blue line separating law and order from anarchy". |
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June 17, 2009, 04:44 PM | #189 | ||
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I wont stoop to your level. Perhaps you should add me to your ignore list so my poorly phrased poll questions don't put you in such a state of intellectual confusion. WildandnowbacktothedebateAlaska™ |
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June 17, 2009, 04:47 PM | #190 | ||||
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I'm talking about not running and hiding when criminals threaten you or invade your home. There's a world of difference. Quote:
Castle doctrine is not about running away. You cannot run away and honestly say that you defended yourself or your home. You can only say that you were a victim of crime and a survivor because you ran away. If that's your goal, then fine, but it has nothing to do with firearms or self-defense. Quote:
This is total nonsense. |
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June 17, 2009, 04:49 PM | #191 | ||
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June 17, 2009, 04:49 PM | #192 | ||
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You shoot him? You legally can, do you? Or do you slam the bedroom door and call 911? WildthewholepointofthisexcersizeistointellectuallydemonstratethatshootingisthelastresortAlaska ™ |
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June 17, 2009, 04:51 PM | #193 | |
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WA
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"For me there is only one true morality; but it might not fit you, as you do not manufacture aerial battleships. There is only one true morality for every man; but every man has not the same true morality." Undershaft from George Bernard Shaw's Major Barbara
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The lowest paid college major/degree in this country after graduation... Elementary Education. Now, go figure... |
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June 17, 2009, 04:53 PM | #194 | |
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Would you just turn away while a kid was being abducted by an armed man? |
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June 17, 2009, 04:55 PM | #195 | |
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Yeah, if he's coming at you with a gun, the legality may be obvious to you, but then escape wouldn't be a viable option anyway. Entering (or in some places attempting to enter) your occupied home unlawfully and with force? Legality may not be at issue, but it is likely that even if you were alone in the home, retreating outside wouldn't be assuredly safe. Chances are, I would reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was immediately necessary--and therefore legal--in either case. With luck, the legal system would concur, hopefully forthwith. In many scenarios, however, the legality, though perhaps evident to the shooter, will probably be determined later by someone else. If I am accosted outside and can safely retreat and would, by so doing, avoid the potential for spending money I don't have in bushels, while waiting a year for a trial, perhaps without a gun, I'll do it. Operative word there is safely, of course. I'd have to be alone, and in close proximity to a safe have, I don't run at the track anymore, and my wife cannot move swiftly. That's a practical, and not a moral, perspective. |
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June 17, 2009, 04:57 PM | #196 |
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quote: You are in your bedroom. You hear the door being kicked in and you arm yourslef and see a guy unhooking your Xbox. You hit him with the surefire and he turns to run away with your Xbox......
You shoot him? You legally can, do you? Or do you slam the bedroom door and call 911? good questions. Much better than the OP question. you shoot him? me? not at that point do you slam the bedroom door and call 911? me? not at that point IF he is moving away from me with property, he will probably proceed unharmed. The double barrel will be on him the whole time. |
June 17, 2009, 04:58 PM | #197 | ||
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June 17, 2009, 05:03 PM | #198 | ||
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You're smarter than that. Or at least I thought you were.
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June 17, 2009, 05:16 PM | #199 |
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For the record, there are NO such pictures, and NEVER WILL BE.
There was an incident up here a few years back that actually test this particular topic. Google Pastor Mielke, there should be a link that comes up, first one for me anyways, to a THR thread that could be relevant.
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June 17, 2009, 05:18 PM | #200 | ||
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Cornered cat WildthescenariosareendlessAlaska ™ |
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moral duty , morality |
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