6mm Creedmoor or .243 Win

[stagpanther]

but I can make 6 Creedmoor out of .243 in a pinch.

Or neck it down from 6.5 creed--which is what I did while waiting for my brass to come in. I have a neck reamer and turner but don't recall having any really notable donuts when I reamed the brass.

[Mobuck]

1: I doubt that increasing bullet weight from 100 grains to 103-105 grains will create a noticeable increase in terminal performance.
2: I think it will be a challenge for the 6mmC to exceed 3000fps with 105 grain bullets from 20" of bore since most 243 ammo fails to exceed 2900 with 100 grain bullets from 22-24" bores.
3: I can't answer what another may find an acceptable compromise in performance to achieve a more manageable length with a mounted suppressor. For myself, a 20" barrel with a 7-9" suppressor is already too long.

[Colorado Redneck]

If you're going to build, I see no advantage in a 243 Win. I like mine, 243 is a great caliber. But modern projectiles with higher ballistic coefficients broadens the opportunities for hand loaders and shooters of all stripes.

A 26" barrel isn't as easy to handle as a 20" barreled gun but still, if you want to have a silencer on a hunting rifle, the total length of the firearm will be relatively long. When walking around shooting prairie dogs the only rifles I have are Savage model 12's with 26" varmint barrels. They're heavy, and cumbersome and a pita when shooting prone on a bipod. Standing shots are fired using Primos Trigger Sticks tripod. Then, when hunting season arrives, packing a 9 lb. rifle feels absolutely wonderful. Its all perspective. Admittedly, nowadays walking thru hills and arroyo's for a couple hours is about the limit for me. Old age....my current excuse.

[stagpanther]

Just did a reality check and loaded up some 105 gr rdf's--using MR4000 and not even a compressed load (43.3) at a COL of 2.79 I was averaging over 3000 fps (standard deviation for a 4 shot group of 5 fps) my particular gun LOVES 108 gr eld's; but I ran out of them and need to order some more.

[kilotanker22]

I can see the advantage going with the 6mm Creedmoor. I would assume that you could load those long VLD Type bullets so they are not seated so deeply into the case. I mean that was the original point in the 6.5 right?

Seems like the same would ring true for the 6mm Creedmoor. If I were in the predicament that you are in. I would choose the 6mm Creedmoor. Although it is my belief that the advantage is minimal, But an advantage none the less.

[Road_Clam]

I had an itch for a target short range tack driver and did some research on the .25ish calibers. I bought a demo R700 Varmint in .243 and played around with it for a few years. Typical MOA shooter at 200 meters, but then I seemed to hit a wall trying to consistently get inside sub moa. I eventually retired the 243 from lack of enthusiasm. I have a better shooting 6.5CM so the .243 really didn't fill any needed niche within my long guns. However not to waste the $700 worth of .243 reloading components I built a custom MGM barreled TC Encore pistol in .243 (which is an absolute hoot to shoot !).

[stagpanther]

I had an itch for a target short range tack driver and did some research on the .25ish calibers.

25-06 will answer that itch nicely. So will the 25 x 45 sharps (as maligned as it is it can still shoot one-holers)

[ndking1126]

Taylorce1,

#3 1:7 twist barrel I have installed cut to 20" with basic blueprint and chambered in .243 Win

Is this a factory barrel or an aftermarket match barrel? In my opinion, that makes the difference. If it's aftermarket, use the aftermarket barrel and the basic blueprint. This would allow you to buy a triggertech trigger, which is a huge plus IMO. If it's a factory barrel and you are left choosing between Howa or Remington factory barrels, I'd recommend the Howa route. I've always been a huge fan of their rifles, but strangely never owned one.

I think the discussion has centered around caliber, but the caliber is very similar. The factory vs aftermarket plus blueprint is really the deciding factor. As you know, speed doesn't matter nearly as much as accuracy especially at typical hunting ranges (under 400).

In regards to your comment about Savage, I completely agree with you. I was a huge fan of their barrel nut design, but they ruined everything when they introduced the Edge/Axis, raised the prices of the 10/110, and dried up the market for used and take-off barrels. Using a smooth nut now certainly doesn't help their cause any either. I just found a cheap 110 to build off of, but otherwise I was ready to try a Tika. Next time I'm pretty sure I will

[taylorce1]

Mobuck,

I doubt I see a huge difference if any on terminal performance as well. All I can say is run the numbers yourself, where these heavy bullets really work well is bucking the wind. If I'm shooting them the same speed as most 100 grain BTSP 6mm bullets, my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets. I be be 400-600 FPS slower at the muzzle to get and still get the same wind correction values as the 6mm 100 grain BTSP at 600 yards.

ndking1126,

It's an X-caliber SS #3 contour, 1:7 5R twist barrel. However, I'm still leaning more toward the Howa just because it's the quickest to get what I want. Plus if my daughter's .308 has been a good indicator, I'll be very pleased with the Howa.

[LineStretcher]

Taylorce1, I get what you're after now and it makes total sense to me. Between the 700 and Howa 1500 actions, I would go with 700 simply because the tooling for blueprinting a 1500 is not common enough yet. PTG sells it but a lot of gunsmiths are reluctant to buy it and will stick to the 700 tooling they have.

Since basically all the 700's are using the same receiver, I'd find a donor rifle and start from there. Alternatively, if you have deep pockets got get a Surgeon 700 action.

The next thing I would do is to get on the phone to the folks at Lilja and talk to them about what they think they can make for you that will do what you want it to do. We can suggest based on what we have or in some cases, wish we had but we don't really know and can't know what you'll end up finding as the best for you. The folks I talk to at Lilja are the best right along with Shilen and Bartlein I like all three but tend to lean towards Lilja.

You're still going to need a gunsmith with a lathe and the correct reamer to complete the barrel and install it in your action with head space set correctly. He'll also need to thread the muzzle and crown it properly.

For your trigger, I'd probably lean towards a single stage Timney. They tend to be pretty darn good, adjustable and reliable. There are others out there and I've tried a few but I always seem to end up liking the Timney the best.

You said you already have a stock but you didn't say how it's prepped (pillar posted, overlay aluminum, etc.) If you like it, stick with it and do all the accurizing tricks you can to stop any unwanted harmonics from transferring to the barrel. If you decided it's too much work then go with a B&C stock.


All that said, you can get a Weatherby Vanguard Select in .243 for 600.00 and it's guaranteed sub moa. Take it to a gunsmith and shorten/thread and crown the barrel. I don't like the Select Stocks on these so I usually got with a B&C or the Hogue Fully Bedded over molded (a lot less work to make it great). Will it shoot as accurately with the shorter barrel, absolutely but you'll need to work up your loads to get it there. You're going to have to do that no matter which route you go. However, I would almost be willing to bet that if you have Remington 100g corelokts at Walmart or Big R they will shoot well in a Vanguard with a shortened barrel. My .308 with the 20" barrel and 1-12 twist loves their 180g.

[ndking1126]

Patience is a virtue! Haha.

Plus if my daughter's .308 has been a good indicator, I'll be very pleased with the Howa.

The first Howa I shot was a 223. I was at the range struggling to get decent groups with my Rem 700. The guy next to me offered to let me shoot his Howa, and the 4 shots I took made a group of less than inch at 100 yards. First time I had done that! Up until that point, I was pretty sure I was the problem. I agree, the Howa should shoot really well. Either option should give great results, but I still recommend the Rem/X-Caliber. Let us know what you go with!

I'm enjoying the 308 internal Savage 10 mag and bolt face you sent a few years back. Doubt you remember that, but I appreciate it. It ended up in my 260 Rem with Shilen barrel. Love that gun - it's the most accurate I own and with little recoil it's a joy to shoot.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by ndking1126

I'm enjoying the 308 internal Savage 10 mag and bolt face you sent a few years back. Doubt you remember that, but I appreciate it.

I remember giving a centerfeed magazine and follower away, but I don't remember the bolt head. I can't remember ever having a spare bolt head. I just gave away the Steven's 200 stock that the magazine came out of. I'm glad you're getting some good use out of it .

[Mobuck]

"my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets."

Those additional 3-5 grains must be some sort of magic.

[ndking1126]

I must have paid the Smith for it then. I really thought it came with the mag. Either way, message is still the same.

[LineStretcher]

Originally Posted by Mobuck

"my wind correction is less than with the 103+ grain bullets."

Those additional 3-5 grains must be some sort of magic.

Every rifle is different. I have a .308 that shoots 180's great but throw a 185 in there and it get's all upset. If you think about it, there has to be a break point somewhere. It could be as little as 1 grain. My Bergarra 6.5 C has come to like 129's better than 130's and the only way I can explain it is the way I just did.

[taylorce1]

Mobuck,

Nothing magical about them, they just were never designed to be limited by a 1:10 twist. Hornady ELDX 103 grain bullet has a BC of .513, the Berger 105 Hunting VLD is .532 BC and both require a 1:8 twist minimum. They simply buck the wind better due to their design.

The best BC bullet that stabilizes in a 1:10 twist is a Sierra TGK 90 grain with a .490 BC and the best 100 grain again Sierra GK at .430 BC. Most BTSP hunting bullets for the .243 Win have a low .400 BC, and most around 90-95 grains are only around .350-.380 BC. So to put it simply they are just affected by the wind more.

Plus there is the fact that I may just shoot 100 grain bullets if that is what the rifle likes. I just don't have to limit my options by sticking to a 1:10 twist rifle. Bullet lengths only seem to be getting longer across the board, I don't see that trend reversing soon.

[roc1]

I agree both cartridges close but I got both. I already had 6.5 Creed just wanted 6mm Creed I love it shoots great . I just like having different cartridges to play with and load I made brass from 6.5 but it’s readily available now so just bought some,even have srp in 6 now like 6.5. Great cartridge to load for good long range I enjoy both.
Roc1

[stagpanther]

Taylor; here's a fairly nice 105 gr hunting vld load I found using 41.9 grs of 4350. I didn't pursue it any further because I was looking for hotter loads going faster and berger bullets in general don't like me. It's a nice midrange power load that should get you at or very close to 3000 fps.

[taylorce1]

I've played with the VLD bullets before in .243, the only problem is who wants to carry a 12+ lbs hunting rifle?

100 yard seating depth test 115 Berger VLD.


Best 300 yard group 115 Berger VLD.


I even tried 115 grain DTACS, 100 yard seating depth test.

[stagpanther]

Never thought about trying RL22 in the smaller Creedmoor --hmmm. The weight issue with my AR build is true, but I never really thought I'd use for anything but punching paper.

[taylorce1]

Magnum powders worked pretty well with the .243, I got well over 3200 FPS out of a 26" barrel with 105 A-Max and VLD bullets. Never saw any serious pressure problems but I backed them down to around 3000 FPS just to save on throat erosion. H4350 also worked very well, I only ever tried RL22 and Retumbo but the results were similar.

[stagpanther]

Here in Maine we're in the middle of a sizeable rain storm, so I thought I would occupy my day with doing some scope adjustment/maintence/leveling. I decided to put a Nikon black scope on my 6mm creed but also level the reticle the best I could--which I had to do with the "flashlight through the objective" technique. Iused a pair of SME levels--I recently bought 5 sets from midway. Having put them on 3 different rifles I can say with confidence--they totally suck and don't waste your money on them. I have had a high rate of failures incuding things like going out of level, bubble tube falling out of housing and bubble inside level splitting up into subsidiary bubbles. Utter junk.


About two hours ago the rain and wind volume backed off enough to tempt me to go out--all I intended on doing was putting a few rounds of the 105 rdf's and 105 vld's I talked about above to check my zero and level. I hadn't tried the vld's in a long time and still had a few boxes collecting dust--so why not?


When I got to the pit it was still raining moderately but the fog and mist had picked up enough to make sighting in quite challenging. The Nikon scope did quite well at staying sharp, even though it was only 100 yds. The scope got thoroughly wet but showed no signs of fogging up and even the glass was reasonably sharp covered in small mist droplets. For an all around FFP scope I'm quite happy with it. Since it was raing I didn't bother setting up my bench and simply shot off the tailgate of my truck on bags.



I loaded up 5 shots each of the 105 gr rdf's and vlds, and to make a "fair" comparison I seated both to .003 off lands, which put the COL for both right about at 2.81--something that should be easily handled by most magazines.

The rdf's in the lower left did not group especially well, even though I used the same "ingredients" that previously got me a group under .75 MOA.



Next up were 5 shots of the vld's; which I really couldn't make out clearly as they impacted (which might have been for the better since I almost always choke and pull a flier once I know I have a good group started).

That's one of the best 5 shot groups I've ever shot with the 6 creedmoor @100 so far--so I'm going to have to take a second look at this load in better conditions.




And to the fine folks at Berger--I take back every bad thing I've ever said about your bullets.

[taylorce1]

I've decided on optics at least!



Got a smoking almost 30% off this scope. I'm sure I'll be sending it back for a CDS dial in the future.

[LineStretcher]

Take it back, it's garbage... ROFLOL.. Just kidding.. Nice scope, I have VX3's and a VX6 they get the job done and do it well.

[stagpanther]

BTW--I feel I should say something about the load above. I've been loading for the 6 Creedmoor for over a year now--and have found some good loads using IMR 4350. That's mostly because IMR 4350 was commonly mentioned in initial load data released by bullet and powder manufacturers.

However--I have on numerous occasions experienced pierced and blown primers on loads that were not even at the max suggested by the manufacturer when using it. I'm not positive--but my feeling is that the powder is a bit fast for the 6 creed--and when compressed can unexpectedly spike in pressure--which certainly can happen in an auto-feed that results if a bullet's push-back in the seating.