ATF: Reclassification of M855/SS109 ammo as armor-piercing

[44 AMP]

Well, here's a question, if the M855 IS classified as Handgun AP, and banned, what happens to all the ammo that is being bought?

The law prohibits possession. I don't see any wiggle room. From what I see, it would take a separate ruling/variance or law, to grandfather possession of the rounds we already have.

Anybody think we are going to get this? I don't hold out much hope, myself.

SO, possession of the loaded ammo becomes illegal, what do you do? Shoot it all off in a blaze of glory (and hope you fire it all before the gunpolice show up?

Pull the bullets? (only loaded ammo AP is banned, not the bullets themselves)

Turn it in? for (most likely) no compensation?

What are YOU going to do, if it happens?

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, while I do have a .223, I've never had, or used the M855 ammo. I have some sympathy for the guys who have stocks of M855 on hand, and have had for some time. I don't have any for the guys who are buying it NOW, "while they can". And even less for the speculators.

This is NOT a situation like a hi cap mag ban, or even an assault weapon ban, where if you had it before the law passed, you can keep it. This is a situation where, if it becomes the official interpretation of the law, you will have to dispose of it (and sale is also prohibited by the law).

To me, buying any of this particular ammo NOW, is foolish. If we win, you can buy it later (and probably are more sane prices). If we lose, not only will you not be able to buy any, you'll have to give up what you currently have.
(unless there is some variance allowed to us)

its your money, waste it the way you want. But don't whine to me if you find yourself out the money you spent because of what the Fed decides.

[Mosin-Marauder]

From what I read it said possession would not be illegal, just the sale, manufacture, and import of such ammunition.

I would however LOVE to see the response some ATF agents get if they do decide to come door-to-door to confiscate ammo. (Though I wish no harm on anyone)

It would possibly be the greatest ATF flop of all if they actually do somehow find the money, manpower, and time to track down and confiscate every single round of 855.

That's a lot of Walmarts, Gun Stores, and Ticked-off Gun Owners.

[CowTowner]

Just because I have strange sense of humor, what if............

This turns out to be a stimulus maneuver? Get a run on M855/SS109 to boost sales and tax revenue?

Strange? Nope - I'm warped for sure.
But I have to try and look at things with some humor or I'd go nuts.

Back to the serious side of this.
If Congress didn't write the law the way ATF seems to want to interpret it, is there not a legal way using the court system to correct this?

[TimSr]

Common problem with creating regulatory agencies and giving them the unconstitutional power to legislate. Yes, only my layman's legal opinion.

Anyways, the courts cannot help because the law gives the ATF the authority decide what it means, and can chnage their minds at any time. The only solution is a legislative one. Really, the easiest solution would be to repeal the entire act that banned so called "armor piercing" ammo to begin with. It was never necessary, did not accomplish anything useful, and was based entirely on the imagination of what "could possibly happen" that never actually did.

[steve4102]

Our Moderator UncleNick over at the Handloading forum posted this.

In the 80's the SCOTUS declared that any agency rule that might be seen as a reasonable interpretation of the law has the power of a law.

Can you legal eagles elaborate on this for us?

[rickyrick]

Only thing it will accomplish, is more hoarding of all .223, at least for a bit.... More Craigslist scalpers....more Walmart associates holding the ammo for their Craigslist scalper buddy lol...
More people waiting outside of sporting goods stores every morning while I'm at work... Grrrrrr...

[alan]

Re the recently announced proposal to ban M855 ammunition, the short public comment period lasts till 16 March, 2015. I have no idea concerning how effective comment addressed to the BATFE might be, if it would have any effect at all, one never knows, and we should certainly be in touch, ASAP with our elected reps, U.S. Senators and Congressmen on this matter.

That being said, find below a copy of comment I sent to the BAFFE, at both the email and "snail mail" addresses found elsewhere. My comments offered for anyone's use, as a framework to assist in composing their own, should anyone desire a reference. I submit, in any case, that comment on the proposal should most certainly be offered.


BATFE proposal for the banning of M855 ammunition, objections thereto
Gentlemen:


Re the above, be so kind as to note and consider the following.


It had been earlier, more than 20years ago, been determined that M855 ammunition was not armor piercing. Quite recently, it has become armor piercing. While the ammunition is unchanged, the politics involved have changed. Of the above mentioned, technical facts and politics, which of the two drives the actions of the BATFE? Given the existing situation, this question is quite reasonable and proper.

The projectiles of rifle ammunition will penetrate “soft body armor”, said armor being designed to stop the projectiles of handgun ammunition. M855 ammunition is rifle ammunition, a fact that needs to be kept in mind. In passing, the projectiles of any center fire rifle ammunition will penetrate “soft body armor”.

While some handguns are chambered for M855 ammunition, no police officers have been shot with them, and such “handguns” are not commonly encountered.

In conclusion, one would hope and expect that the findings of the BATFE, where they involve technical matters, as here is the case, would be driven by factual considerations. Unfortunately, they appear to be driven by politics, an unfortunate and undesirable situation. Your proposal for the banning of M855 ammunition, being other than factually driven, should be withdrawn.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Steve4102

Our Moderator UncleNick over at the Handloading forum posted this.

In the 80's the SCOTUS declared that any agency rule that might be seen as a reasonable interpretation of the law has the power of a law.

Can you legal eagles elaborate on this for us?

The key, however, is that the interpretation must be "reasonable." Courts have also determined that regulatory bodies and enforcement agencies cannot "interpret" a law or regulation to mean the opposite of what it explicitly says. So if the regulation says that armor piercing ammunition is that which has the bullet core made "entirely" of depleted uranium, tungsten, steel, etc., then that's all they can do. The core of the M855 is about 85% to 90% (weight or volume) lead; the steel or tungsten "penetrator tip" is just a tiny grain at the very front of the bullet, within the jacket. There's simply no way to make that fit the definition.

Disclaimer: I am not a legal eagle. In fact, I'm not even a legal sparrow.

[Tom Servo]

You might be referring to the Administrative Procedure Act.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

1. This change will not make M855 illegal to possess under FEDERAL law. However, because some state laws rely on the federal definition of armor-piercing, M855 may be illegal to possess in some states. Mississippi is definitely one of those states and it appears Illinois is as well. There may be more states that are affected.

2. The Goodlatte letter was sent to ATF on March 4th with 239 signatures, including 7 Dems. It had to be sent quickly as it demanded a response by March 13; but it still managed to get a lot of signatures in a short period of time.

3. Your letters and comments to ATF are helpful even if ATF roundfiles them - they become part of the official record and help demonstrate evidence on key Second Amendment tests such as whether M855 is in common use.

4. Operation Chokepoint was recently completely defunded by Congress. This was another "executive action" that faced all the same obstacles we face here and yet we won that fight. We can win this fight as well!

[Cnon]

44 said Well, here's a question, if the M855 IS classified as Handgun AP, and banned, what happens to all the ammo that is being bought?

The law prohibits possession. I don't see any wiggle room. From what I see, it would take a separate ruling/variance or law, to grandfather possession of the rounds we already have.

Anybody think we are going to get this? I don't hold out much hope, myself.

SO, possession of the loaded ammo becomes illegal, what do you do? Shoot it all off in a blaze of glory (and hope you fire it all before the gunpolice show up?

Pull the bullets? (only loaded ammo AP is banned, not the bullets themselves)

Turn it in? for (most likely) no compensation?

What are YOU going to do, if it happens?

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, while I do have a .223, I've never had, or used the M855 ammo. I have some sympathy for the guys who have stocks of M855 on hand, and have had for some time. I don't have any for the guys who are buying it NOW, "while they can". And even less for the speculators.

This is NOT a situation like a hi cap mag ban, or even an assault weapon ban, where if you had it before the law passed, you can keep it. This is a situation where, if it becomes the official interpretation of the law, you will have to dispose of it (and sale is also prohibited by the law).

To me, buying any of this particular ammo NOW, is foolish. If we win, you can buy it later (and probably are more sane prices). If we lose, not only will you not be able to buy any, you'll have to give up what you currently have.
(unless there is some variance allowed to us)

its your money, waste it the way you want. But don't whine to me if you find yourself out the money you spent because of what the Fed decides.
__________________

Here's quote from a Fox News article that answers the above question:

The proposed regulation would not prohibit owning the bullets, but it would stop anyone from manufacturing or importing them.

More here: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...-ban-proposal/

[44 AMP]

Here's quote from a Fox News article that answers the above question:

No, I'm afraid it doesn't answer the question.

While I consider Fox News to be a cut above the rest of the pack (at sometimes they try to get things right), they still do what the rest of the media, and the non-shooting public does, which is to say "bullet" when they mean "cartridge" /loaded ammunition.

Current law for rifle AP ammo bans sale, purchase, etc., but allows possession if you had it when the law was passed. Pulled bullets from this ammo (just the bullets) is allowed, and you can buy, sell, and trade them to your heart's content. But NOT loaded ammo.

Current law for AP HANDGUN ammo bans sale, purchase, and possession of loaded ammo. The bullets alone (not loaded ammo) won't be banned.

If M855 ammo is classed as AP Handgun ammo, under existing law, LOADED AMMO ("Bullets" to the media) will be illegal.

[scpapa]

^^^^^^
Although IANAL, that is my read, also.

Rick

[Sharkbite]

AP rifle ammo is fine. Its AP PISTOL ammo that is causing the issue

The specific issue in question is the LEO protection act that was put into place to prevent access to handgun ammo that could penetrate soft body armor as worn by LEO's

[Bartholomew Roberts]

File this under "What to Expect Going Forward"; but DON'T STOP SENDING LETTERS TO ATF AND YOUR CONGRESSMEN! It may not impact what ATF intends to do; but it still has valuable possibilities in both legislation and litigation.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...ition-n1966761

Summary: ATF banned M855 greentip in the latest edition of the Federal Regulations (which is updated only every several years) even before they asked us for any comment.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Current law for rifle AP ammo bans sale, purchase, etc., but allows possession if you had it when the law was passed. Pulled bullets from this ammo (just the bullets) is allowed, and you can buy, sell, and trade them to your heart's content. But NOT loaded ammo.

Current law for AP HANDGUN ammo bans sale, purchase, and possession of loaded ammo. The bullets alone (not loaded ammo) won't be banned.

If M855 ammo is classed as AP Handgun ammo, under existing law, LOADED AMMO ("Bullets" to the media) will be illegal.

Are we bumping into another pre-existing distinction, constructive possession, and possibly a useful precedent?

What if I possess some M855 ammo but I don't possess an AR-15 pistol? If the ammo is prohibited as handgun ammo but I don't have a handgun it'll fit, am I still prohibited?

Before you laugh me off the stage, consider the across-the-board situation vis-a-vis ammunition sales to 18, 19, and 20-year olds. They can purchase ammunition for a rifle, but not for a handgun. So, after a short time, they quickly learn to always say "Rifle" when asked what it's for. I have never seen or heard of anyone being required to prove that they own a rifle in the caliber being purchased before being allowed to make the buy.

[Buzzard Bait]

Well from what I just read on the Drudge Report it's over the ammo is banned the discussion period is over the guide lines ban sale and possession of green tip, it appears that they took the regulation to print in the new guide lines ahead of time which could indicate that had no intention of listening to any coments
bb

[Mosin-Marauder]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

[alan]

Assuming that is has a sense of shame, a questionable presumption, respecting it's so-called armor piercing ammunition ban, currently the subject of some discussion, the BATFE, the latest nome de guerre for the federal gun cops has once again prostituted itself to the ill conceived desires of a bunch of anti gun rights persons, that unfortunately include the president of this country.

One can put as much lipstick on this pig as might be desired however it remains that, in my view, the fact that anti gun rights politics looms large is inescapable, considerations of fact be damned.

[buckhorn_cortez]

Apparently, the latest edition of the ATF Regulation Guide (revised every 10 years) was published in January, and has already eliminated the 5.56mm green tip exemption.

Here is a link to the article with the exemption page from the previous (2005 Edition) of the publication; and the same page from latest edition (published January, 2015) with the 5.56mm green tip exemption missing.

This means that the ATF has unilaterally changed the law and put up a bogus comment period strictly for show. Seems like this should end up in court as they have failed to follow the Administrative Procedures Act and gone around Congress.

[Buzzard Bait]

Who will take it to court? What process does it take?
bb

[tirod]

Oops, no, the ATF didn't really mean to publish a ban yet.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...lishing-error/

No final determination has yet been made.


And they didn't let straw buyers walk guns illegally into Mexico, either?

[maestro pistolero]

In other words, someone's dog ate their homework. This is telling of how stupid they must think we are. To believe that this 30 year old exemption was accidentally and coincidentally omitted within months of the ban attempt strains credulity.

[jimbob86]

SO, possession of the loaded ammo becomes illegal, what do you do? Shoot it all off in a blaze of glory (and hope you fire it all before the gunpolice show up?

Pull the bullets? (only loaded ammo AP is banned, not the bullets themselves)

Turn it in? for (most likely) no compensation?

What are YOU going to do, if it happens?

You make a white flag, with a black cartridge with a green tip centered on it, with a black star over it and the words "Come And Take It" underneath.

I'll make a million!

[Cnon]

Oops, no, the ATF didn't really mean to publish a ban yet.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...lishing-error/

No final determination has yet been made.


Me thinks, that they tipped their hands here.