November 2, 2013, 02:38 PM | #126 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
|
If one of you wants to carry at work, and you get the owner to agree to allow carry at work, are the employees going to pay for any lawsuit settlement should something bad happen because of your concealed weapon?
With all the morality talk on this thread, no one has really said anything about why an employer should hang their butt out for the mental comfort of the employees. Concealed carry accidents can and do happen. There's a thread about one right now on the semi board. Normally, if I screw up with my firearm, I am the one responsible. But when I do something stupid that I was essentially allowed to do at work, the responsibility falls into the lap of the person with the most money to lose - the business owner where the ND happened. All it takes is one foolish person with questionable carry habits or a bad pistol or holster to financially ruin a business. Should it really be a surprise to anyone that most business owners don't want to embrace that additional risk??? What is the morality of subjecting your employer to all that unshared risk? This just doesn't seem any different than an employer who doesn't enforce OSHA regulations just because his employees don't want to wear filter masks or hardhats. The employees' feelings don't translate into any sort of protection of the business. I'm not saying that you should be helpless at work, but no one is talking about a business's right to mitigate their own risk. I doubt most gas station owners view their $9 an hour employees as the type of people that are likely to always make great life decisions. |
November 2, 2013, 02:47 PM | #127 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Well, this is why the great majority of businesses won't allow CCW at work. I understand that but the fact remains that unless the employer insures (to a reasonable degree) that disarmament is enforced OR takes other measures to protect the employees from harm in the way of the OP then the rule is immoral.
What the companies are saying is; You can't carry and we only have to protect you against stuff the law (not reality) requires. Since we can't predict crime you can't sue us if you are the victim of it while at work but we won't allow you to carry either. Immoral Now as to lawsuits. I am sure that had a lawsuit been filed by the crook he would have included Mr. Cothran and all CCW holders are financially responsible for every bullet they fire. So, that is already the case. Insurance companies already cover businesses for negligent acts committed by employees so that could extend to CCW too. But since the law doesn't require it the companies avoid the extra cost and leave us hanging. Kind of like when Tucker made his care and had seat belts. The Big 4 said "well, it isn't required so we won't do it".
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
November 2, 2013, 02:49 PM | #128 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 02:56 PM | #129 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
November 2, 2013, 02:57 PM | #130 | |||||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
What if the outcome had been different. What if the employee who armed himself in violation of his employer's policy had been wildly mistaken about the need to resort to lethal force and shot someone who everyone agreed did not present a lethal threat? Would the employer's policy still be immoral? Would the employee's choice to violate that policy still be moral? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|||||
November 2, 2013, 03:10 PM | #131 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||
November 2, 2013, 03:24 PM | #132 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
|
TG,
Your post is an example of the sort of gun culture PC that clouds people's thinking. Just because a gun grabber observes that some people shouldn't be trusted with firearms doesn't make the observation false. It is true. It just doesn't matter if it is true because a right supersedes even a practical truth. Just reading this board for a few weeks would convince me that the average gun enthusiast is fairly unlikely to be a practical minded, well trained and smart weapon user. Since an employer isn't providing gun training, how does he satisfy his moral obligation to provide a safe environment when many CCW people are so obviously idiots??? Owners have a larger moral responsibility to everyone that comes onto their property. It is PC nonsense that they should just trust that any boob they hire can be expected to handle a weapon responsibly and competently. And I'm just talking about NDs, not shoot outs. It's no different than having untrained people running the forklift. What sort of idiot owner is going to allow that? |
November 2, 2013, 03:25 PM | #133 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
I've had clients who buy the insurance. In some industries, the premiums are substantial. And sometimes to even get manageable premiums a business would need to accept a very high self-insured retention or very large deductible. So even with insurance, a business can have a substantial financial liability exposure.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
November 2, 2013, 03:27 PM | #134 | ||
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
Quote:
While I won't condone dishonesty, I'd be a hypocrite if I condemned it. I've been in Mr. Cothran's position, and I've made a similar decision. There was no moral aspect to it, merely a pragmatic one. Had I been caught and fired, so be it. I made my choice. However, that did involve subtle dishonesty, and I'd certainly have had no right to ride the drama llama around proclaiming my integrity. Likewise, I don't like bans on employee carry, but I can certainly understand the unfortunate circumstances that lead to such bans.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
||
November 2, 2013, 03:40 PM | #135 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
|
So if a man pulls a knife on you in a dark alley and demands ALL your money...is it lying if you only give him what's in your wallet...and don't bother to tell him about the $500 in your left boot? Or, does honesty and integrity compel you to mention to him that if he follows you home, there's another grand in the nightstand drawer?
I don't allow employees to carry cell phones around all day, as it hinders their performance. I have no issue with a pistol tucked in a pocket, however, as it is not a hindrance and is not a danger either.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!! |
November 2, 2013, 03:50 PM | #136 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
Last edited by manta49; November 2, 2013 at 03:57 PM. |
|
November 2, 2013, 03:52 PM | #137 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
|
Being the employer gives ME the authority to make that call. I don't see anyone snatching their pistol out every few minutes to fool with it. A cell phone, on the other hand...is a work killer.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!! |
November 2, 2013, 04:06 PM | #138 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,433
|
Quote:
|
|
November 2, 2013, 04:19 PM | #139 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 04:20 PM | #140 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 04:24 PM | #141 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Yes I empathize with your ambivalence too. Of course you know Mr. Cothran isn't really carping much about this. He accepted his firing but had no remorse for his actions.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 04:25 PM | #142 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2013
Posts: 140
|
For what it's worth, I want to be on Tennessee Gentleman's side when the going gets rough. At least he'll likely be armed with more than an "I Obey All The Rules" pin to stick the perp with.
__________________
Don't invest in idiots....the market's flooded!!! |
November 2, 2013, 04:29 PM | #143 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Well I'll just pull out my "Gun Free Zone" sign and they will have to leave without shooting anyone!
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
November 2, 2013, 04:58 PM | #144 |
Junior member
Join Date: October 27, 2013
Posts: 1,139
|
TG,
It is entirely on topic to compare the moral responsibility a property owner has to a single employee's safety vs. the safety of everyone. You want the untrained employee's desire for his personal safety to override the owner's moral responsibility to protect everyone from negligent death. If an employer had the ability to control the training and equipment of armed employees it would be different, but his only choice is to endorse any fool endangering the workplace with their incompetence, or allow no one. Given only those two choices, the only moral choice for an employer is to protect the greater group of people. One person who wants to carry is a special interest. That special interest should not trump group safety on private property unless the owner wants it to. If this was about soldiers, cops or any other category of person who's competence was certified, it would be different. Foolish people with guns ARE dangerous. |
November 2, 2013, 05:44 PM | #145 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
|
Carry at Work
Quote:
No one in 21st Century America ever starved to death unless by choice. Frankly, no one goes hungry or homeless, except by choice. I have, in fact, quit a good paying job, while my wife was on fertility treatments even, because the owner of the business was a lying, cheating thief. We had to sell our house and we lost an investment property through short sale. It was the right thing to do. We don't have to be perfect to encourage right choices. Any of you guys ever make an unsafe mistake with a gun? I'll bet every one of you has. Do you still encourage and insist on safe gun handling by yourself and others or do you not bother, since you'd be a hypocrite? Moving doesn't have to be expensive either. I helped my sister move across several states, twice, and she was stone broke both times. She managed. There are a lot of choices. |
|
November 2, 2013, 05:45 PM | #146 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
RX,
Really you are off topic but I would refer you to this site: http://www.gunfacts.info/ and you can learn more about CCW holders and their accidents rates compared to police. Start on page 17 and move thru it. Untrained people defend themselves successfully by the millions each year. After this post I will not debate you about training. But I think you need to know more facts. Hope you enjoy the read.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
November 2, 2013, 05:53 PM | #147 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
A "choice" of feeding your family or getting murdered by a criminal is no choice. It is just immoral. You are entitled to your opinion but in my opinion your "let 'em eat cake" choices are neither real nor particularly moral. Rather than trade anecdotes all day about choices I will say we agree to disagree. Also, I don't get your analogy about safe gun handling. Since all of us have been unsafe at some point with a gun that would in my view make insisting on good gun handling even more important. I don't think Mr. Cothran had a real choice and I am glad he was able to defend himself. I'd rather he break some stupid immoral work rule than follow your guidance and be dead. But that's me.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
November 2, 2013, 06:06 PM | #148 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
|
|
November 2, 2013, 06:15 PM | #149 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Nope it's no misunderstanding. Gary Kleck, FSU professor has done the studies. Check that link I gave above.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
November 2, 2013, 06:25 PM | #150 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,809
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
Tags |
carry at work cothran |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|