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Old February 12, 2019, 08:28 AM   #1
OhioGuy
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Can anyone interpret this sign???

Saw this on the window of a bar in Ohio:

WARNING!!!

IF YOU ARE CARRYING A FIREARM

Under the statues of Ohio, if you possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code, you may be guilty of a felony and are subject to a term of actual incarceration of one to two years.


What the heck does that mean? Has the Ohio seal and John Kasich's name.

To the best of my knowledge, you are only committing a crime if you are consuming alcohol while carrying a firearm, regardless of where that alcohol is being consumed.

You "MAY" be guilty of a felony? Subject to *actual* incarceration? As opposed to...pretend incarceration? Being sent to time out? Sitting in the naughty chair?

Does this sign actually mean anything, or is it intended to scare people off who are otherwise legitimately carrying a firearm? Like anyone is going to look up and read the Ohio Revised Code while standing outside the bar
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Old February 12, 2019, 09:56 AM   #2
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Someone probably meant to say “no guns.”

They tried to say “since this is a bar, we should not have to say it but ‘no guns’.”

What they ended up saying was “If we have a D permit, you may or may not be committing a felony by having a firearm in the bar room. In any case, you can hang out in our bathrooms with your guns. We are not lawyers or even have the spine to tell you our wishes for our premesises. Please come in and ask to see our “D Oermit” and ask the owner for the name of the lawyer that wrote this sign, so you can get a better one in the future”
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Old February 12, 2019, 09:56 AM   #3
jar
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That is a fair summary of part A of Chapter 2923.121 of Ohio Revised Codes.

Part B is somewhat more detailed.
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Old February 12, 2019, 10:57 AM   #4
OhioGuy
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So nobody can carry a firearm in a liquor establishment except the following list of exempt people, which includes police officers or...

Quote:
(e) Any person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license or any person who is an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States and is carrying a valid military identification card and documentation of successful completion of firearms training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, as long as the person is not consuming beer or intoxicating liquor or under the influence of alcohol or a drug of abuse.
So for CCWers who are not consuming alcohol, this sign does not apply. Anyone concealing a firearm without the permit is already committing a crime.

Would this statue then prohibit open carry?

Either way, I think I agree with the comment above: this is a very slippery-worded sign that seems intended to scare away people who are legitimately carrying, but without actually prohibiting firearms.

Are such establishments required to post these signs? I would imagine if the owners actually wanted to prohibit carry, they'd just post a sign saying so. A bar owner voluntarily posting a vaguely worded pile of legalese doesn't make sense to me...
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Old February 12, 2019, 11:47 AM   #5
NoSecondBest
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Not hard to understand at all unless you're illiterate. Other states have the same signs posted in bars and nightclubs.
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Old February 12, 2019, 02:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest View Post
Not hard to understand at all unless you're illiterate. Other states have the same signs posted in bars and nightclubs.
I thought the same thing. It essentially means this: "It is illegal to carry a firearm in a bar in Ohio." Clear enough to me.

I don't know anything about Ohio law, by the way, but any private establishment reserves the right to ban firearms on their premises unless there's a law that says it can't. These guys just let you know that it's the government's choice, not necessarily their own.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:16 PM   #7
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How is someone supposed to know what class of permit the store has? The sign doesn't actually say.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:30 PM   #8
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I'd infer that "any room in which liquor is being dispensed on premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code" translates to "a place with a liquor license."

Moreover, it should be intuitively obvious that any bar displaying such a sign falls under the statute (context speaks volumes). So here's what the sign really says: "It's a felony to bring a gun in here."
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
It essentially means this: "It is illegal to carry a firearm in a bar in Ohio." Clear enough to me.
The problem is that it isn't what that means.

It's not a great sign, and it's not a great law, but it does let you go to dinner with your friends if you follow the rules and don't drink. Ohio's concealed carry laws get more liberal with time, but as you can see from the effective dates of the amendments in the link above, they are a bit of a moving target.

Quote:
I'd infer that "any room in which liquor is being dispensed on premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code" translates to "a place with a liquor license."
A license will be for a specific "permitted premises". If the license holder is a club there can be advantages to less than the entire club being the "permitted premises".
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
So here's what the sign really says: "It's a felony to bring a gun in here."
But the quoted STATUTE says its permitted IF you have a permit. I think that is the source of the OP’s confusion. The sign implies that guns are illegal on the premises, PERIOD.

Thats not the case at all.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:43 PM   #11
NoSecondBest
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Quote:
But the quoted STATUTE says its permitted IF you have a permit. I think that is the source of the OP’s confusion.
He's not confused, he's defiant. Some states have basically the same sign in places where they serve alcohol. Rowdy drunks get into fights and that's no place for guns or knives. I remember seeing similar signs that not only said guns, but knives. Cops don't like to go to bar fights where the patrons are both drunk and armed.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:45 PM   #12
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"D Permit" refers to the establishment's liquor license. In other words, "you can't bring a gun into a place with a liquor license" ... or, better yet ... "no guns in a bar!" There may be exceptions, but unless you're a cop, I'd assume you better not walk in there with a Glock 17 on your hip.

I don't see how that's not clear.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
(e) Any person who is carrying a valid concealed handgun license or any person who is an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States and is carrying a valid military identification card and documentation of successful completion of firearms training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code, as long as the person is not consuming beer or intoxicating liquor or under the influence of alcohol or a drug of abuse
No need to be a PO so long as you remembered your license and are not drinking or under the influence.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brownstone322 View Post
"D Permit" refers to the establishment's liquor license. In other words, "you can't bring a gun into a place with a liquor license" ... or, better yet ... "no guns in a bar!" There may be exceptions, but unless you're a cop, I'd assume you better not walk in there with a Glock 17 on your hip.

I don't see how that's not clear.
Your assumption is wrong. The statute clearly states that anyone with a valid CPL can be in a D permit establishment as long as they don't consume a single sip of alcohol. D permit establishments are not just stand alone bars, they include restaurants with bars in them.

They can, of course, post a sign prohibiting concealed carry like any other business, but that is not what the sign the OP referred to says.
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Old February 12, 2019, 03:59 PM   #15
Brownstone322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JN01 View Post
Your assumption is wrong. The statute clearly states that anyone with a valid CPL can be in a D permit establishment as long as they don't consume a single sip of alcohol. D permit establishments are not just stand alone bars, they include restaurants with bars in them.

They can, of course, post a sign prohibiting concealed carry like any other business, but that is not what the sign the OP referred to says.
I was pretty clear above that there are probably exceptions, but you had damn well better know you're exempted before you walk in there armed. (And don't drink, obviously.)
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Old February 12, 2019, 06:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest
Not hard to understand at all unless you're illiterate. Other states have the same signs posted in bars and nightclubs.
I disagree.

Quote:
Under the statues of Ohio, if you possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code, you may be guilty of a felony and are subject to a term of actual incarceration of one to two years.
Do you know what constitutes a D permit under Chapter 4303 of the [Ohio] Revised Code? I doubt even most residents of Ohio know. I certainly don't pay any attention to what section of statute bars in my state are licensed under, or what their license(s) might be called.

If there's a D permit, logic would suggest that there must be at least an A, B, and C permit and that if carry is prohibited only in establishments with a D permit, it's probably legal in places with an A, B or C permit. Further, the sign says you "may" be guilty of a felony -- which means that you also may not be guilty of a felony. How can you decide, based on the information provided by the sign?

I don't find this sign to be at all useful. It's very informative -- in a highly technical way -- but not at all useful.
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Old February 12, 2019, 07:11 PM   #17
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You can carry in a restaurant that serves liquor but can't carry in a bar that serves food.
The problem with signs is that there are no "official" signs that you can just order.
Many make up their own with verbiage that is not easily understood.
Nobody needs to know the permit status of an establishment they wander into. It was foolish to include that on the sign. Besides, it is the responsibility of the person carrying to know and understand the laws, not that of the establishments they frequent.
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Old February 12, 2019, 07:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Under the statues of Ohio, if you possess a firearm in any room in which liquor is being dispensed in premises for which a D permit has been issued under Chapter 4303 of the Revised Code, you may be guilty of a felony and are subject to a term of actual incarceration of one to two years.
Parse it out. The sign doesn't say firearms are prohibited. It doesn't say you ARE guilty of a crime if you have one there, it says you MAY be, and then gives you a likely penalty if you ARE guilty.

First point, you aren't "guilty" until convicted in court. So, the sign says "may be guilty" Second, the sign deliberately doesn't address those circumstances where you are legally allowed, at all. SO, again, "may be guilty" UNLESS those unnamed circumstances apply to you.

The "in any room where liquor is dispensed" in the licensed establishment allows you to carry in the Denny's dining room, but you MAY be guilty if you do it in the lounge (bar).

In short, yes, its misleading at a glance, and doesn't mention anything about carry under circumstances were you wouldn't be guilty of violating the law, leaving a casual reader with the impression that there aren't any, which is not the case. Or so it seems to me...
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Old February 12, 2019, 09:41 PM   #19
BBarn
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The sign obviously lacks simplicity and clarity, and isn't written in casual English. It's caused confusion here, yet it's written in a manner similar to statutes. Little wonder many people often don't know the law. Good for the legal profession I suppose.
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Old February 12, 2019, 10:30 PM   #20
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Fair point. There's a very good chance the sign was written by -- or at least reviewed by -- the establishment's legal counsel.
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Old February 12, 2019, 10:45 PM   #21
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I've seen that sign....... at a eatery in.... the Cleveland airport!!
That's right! In the no-gun zone, beyond security!

The stupidity is astounding...
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Old February 13, 2019, 06:58 AM   #22
jnichols2
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The lawyers defend the sign, while normal people point out it is obtuse and confusing.
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Old February 13, 2019, 07:31 AM   #23
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And, there are some people that do not pay attention to signs.
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Old February 13, 2019, 12:26 PM   #24
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoArk Willy
Besides, it is the responsibility of the person carrying to know and understand the laws, not that of the establishments they frequent.
That may (or may not) be the case in Ohio, but some states make it the responsibility of establishments that serve alcohol to post signs. Some of those states dictate in statute or regulation exactly what the signs must say.
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Old February 13, 2019, 05:51 PM   #25
OhioGuy
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Wow, this sure generated a comment or two

To clarify two points raised above: I'm neither illiterate nor defiant. But thanks for the kind words.

As others have pointed out, it appears this sign really conveys no useful information at all. Reading the actual laws, anyone with a valid CCW is NOT committing a crime if they aren't drinking, and IS committing a crime if they are. I don't believe it has to be in a liquor establishment, as it's against the law to consume any alcohol, in any venue, while carrying a firearm.

So to me the question then becomes "why did they post it at all?" and my theories would include:

1. They're required by law to post it -- possible because this was not just a made-up sign, but one that had the state seal and the names of the Gov and Lt Gov on it -- I've not seen it anywhere else, so maybe it varies by county or city?

2. The owner meant to post a "no guns" sign and thinks this sign conveys the "no guns allowed" message when in fact, it does not

3. It's posted to scare people into not carrying, even if they have a legal right to, but stops short of actually posting a "no guns" sign -- I'd say this is very unlikely because I can't imagine why someone would be passive aggressive and not just post the familiar sign (which I'd argue comes in three flavors: No Revolvers, No Berettas, or No Glocks).

Thanks for the discussion! I'll now go back to defying laws I can't read anyway
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