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Old November 9, 2018, 10:48 PM   #26
K_Mac
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My father served for 5 years in WW2. He saw the horror of war. It is men like Askins who are the reason for much of the horror. It is not a different world and there is nothing new under the sun. War has always been a barbaric practice and always will be. Rationalization of evil in return for evil is not new either.

No amount of killing will undo the killing of 6 million Jews or 25 million Russians or 20 million Chinese or 500,000 Brits or 450,000 Americans. Nearly 60 million people worldwide. How many Germans would be enough?

You can spin it any way you want but Askins cold blooded killing was not an act of war.
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Old November 9, 2018, 10:50 PM   #27
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What was the prisoner doing again? Oh that's right, Sabotage... during WW2.... with a ball peen hammer. He was disabling captured vehicles so that the Allies couldn't use them. Yes, perhaps a golden 230 grain ball from Askins pistol was too harsh. You guys may be right! Teachable moment here; Perhaps give him extra rations and a stern lecture... that might teach him a lesson and send a message to the rest of those captured Nazi Troops. Or give him a camel no filter and share some music and laughter. Perhaps it wasn't sabotage, perhaps the big burly German was just upset and needed to vent, as there was no safe space in the encampment and he wasn't feeling safe? Yes, Askins was far too harsh and I shouldn't try to defend him, as it's not PC.
We don't even know if it actually happened... writers are known to embellish. What's that saying... "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"?

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Old November 9, 2018, 11:00 PM   #28
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If you can't understand the difference in punishing a saboteur, by execution if warranted, and what Askins did there really is not any point in talking about this. And you're right, defending the actions of a psychopath is neither politically nor morally correct.
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Old November 10, 2018, 09:36 AM   #29
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Prisoner's of War are deemed 'non combatants' after being captured, essentially 'civilians' and anybody shooting/killing them without due process, like this guy supposedly did, could have resulted in him being tried for murder.

Same for somebody being captured..and then a POW. If that person, then kills somebody, like a guard, technically, they could be tried for murder.

I know 'murder' during total war is pretty ironic but that's what the Geneva Accords talk about.
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Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II provide that persons deprived of liberty for reasons related to the conflict must also be treated humanely in all circumstances. In particular, they are protected against murder, torture, as well as cruel, humiliating or degrading treatment. Those detained for participation in hostilities are not immune from criminal prosecution under the applicable domestic law for having done so.
What I was taught during my time in the USN..SERE school.
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Old November 10, 2018, 11:35 AM   #30
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Prisoner's of War are deemed 'non combatants' after being captured, essentially 'civilians' and anybody shooting/killing them without due process, like this guy supposedly did, could have resulted in him being tried for murder.

Same for somebody being captured..and then a POW. If that person, then kills somebody, like a guard, technically, they could be tried for murder.

I know 'murder' during total war is pretty ironic but that's what the Geneva Accords talk about.


What I was taught during my time in the USN..SERE school.
Yea, right.

How many were prosecuted for Vietnam “helicopter interrogations”?
Or Iraqi “table interrogations” during Desert Storm?
Or ...
I believe the correct answer is Zero.
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Old November 10, 2018, 01:05 PM   #31
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Yea, right.
He absolutely is correct.

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Is there such a thing as "too close" ?
No. Train to be most comfortable with the close in grappling fight and it only gets easier.

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You can spin it any way you want but Askins cold blooded killing was not an act of war.
If those Germans have surrendered their "lethal means to resist"...it is actually a war crime called "Murder".

Acts of resistance such as smashing the distributors on their surrendered unarmed vehicles is not a crime nor should it have been unexpected either. In fact they have a duty to continue non-lethal resistance.

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Prisoners of war, not being nationals of the detaining power, are not bound to it by any duty of allegiance and naturally cannot be obliged to provide it with any assistance nor any information other than that required to identify them and register their capture.
Prisoners have a duty of allegiance to their countries Armed Forces not their captors.

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/pr...ers-1828296348

What those Germans did was perfectly legal and they did not deserve to be murdered for it.
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Old November 10, 2018, 03:26 PM   #32
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Yes, john, it was askins and that was the circumstance, somehow, my memory has started feeding me a few defective facts lately. I guess that my memory just turned 58 and it is mocking me.

I almost wish that I hadn't brought it up.

Frankly, I also believe that the guy was bug nuts crazy, that he wasn't at all the kind of guy who I want handling law enforcement in any place other than the worst possible hells. From wikipedia:

Quote:
Askins was controversial for the relish with which he described the numerous fatal shootings in his law enforcement and military careers, stating he had killed 27 men.[1][4] Because he was involved in numerous shootouts along the US/Mexico border, and due to his stated practice of not keeping track of African-Americans and Hispanics, the actual number of killings he committed was potentially much higher.[1] Askins once remarked that he thought he was a psychopathic killer, and that he hunted animals so avidly because he was not allowed to hunt men anymore
Some of these passages are attributed to massad ayoob.

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He was also a stone cold killer. For those of us who knew him, there was just no gentler way to put it.
Quote:
Charles Askins, Jr. killed dozens of men, both in war and on the streets. When asked for an official body count, the Colonel replied, "Twenty-seven, not counting [blacks] and Mexicans."
American Handgunner, Nov-Dec, 1999 by Massad Ayoob

Dissemble all that you want to, guys, askins was not a good man. He did terrible things, no matter what excuse there is for it, there are no justifications for some of the things that he did.

If massad calls him a stone killer, and infers that he is also a loon, there really isn't any better authority IMO. Dillinger did the same thing.
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Old November 10, 2018, 06:32 PM   #33
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I did not know all this about Askins. I guess I was not looking for it as I read old gun rag articles.
Its not like I was in his fan club.....It was sad to find out the dark side of Cosby,too.
If a US GI POW was disabling captured jeeps or deuce and a halfs,we'd consider him a hero,and we'd be outraged at his murder.
At the same time,we might have expected murder from our enemies at the time.
Confronting evil is why we were at war. We can't do that by practicing evil.

That settled,(to my satisfaction) the OP's question ,IMO,is about something other than Askins character (I hope).

A while back,here on TFL was a video of a man in line in a convenience store counting the money in his wallet.A man behind him slapped the wallet out of his hands and picked it up.
The victim resisted,and was savagely ,and potentially fatally beaten.
While,in this case,the victim was helpless,
In that situation,or if a mountain lion was on my back with my head in his mouth,if I could choose a good gun to get my hand on,it might be the 44 SPL Taurus snubby I used to have,or even a pocket J frame S+W.Even a Charter Bulldog.
And instinctively pressing the muzzle against whatever was killing me and pulling the trigger might be the best plan I had. There isn't time to really overthink it in the situation.

And doing it immediately,while in close contact ight be better than waiting for some distance.
I would guess a muzzle contact shot from a snubby might be a really effective way to get some distance.
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Old November 10, 2018, 09:17 PM   #34
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In case it was a question, I don't think that their is a good close contact weapon unless it would be a hammerless or shrouded revolver.

Close in and contact explicitly involves probable interference with a hammer, a slide, other possible things, even your own clothes and fingers can interfere. Even the revolver cylinder might snag on a bit of cloth, or even be grabbed. Can't fire a revolver if it doesn't revolve, right?

In a grapple a good knife with rubber grip and at least a nominal hilt seems to be a worthwhile addition.
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Old November 11, 2018, 07:57 AM   #35
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A prisoners duty, whether US or German, is to escape and also continue efforts to hurt the opposing sides ability to continue fighting.

The action described in the story is not simply illegal but also immoral.
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Old November 11, 2018, 08:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by TXAZ View Post
Yea, right.

How many were prosecuted for Vietnam “helicopter interrogations”?
Or Iraqi “table interrogations” during Desert Storm?
Or ...
I believe the correct answer is Zero.
Not zero and yes, war. More than a few units in both wars had a 'no prisoner' policy. Just speaking to the 'rules of war'..'rules n war' is ironic.

There's a sea story about a aviator shot down over South VietNam..captured..killed his captor/guard, swam out to the helo for a rescue..he was rotated back to the US, not to participate in this conflict any longer, as he technically committed 'murder'..of course he wasn't prosecuted but...
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Old November 11, 2018, 10:37 AM   #37
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Germans are still humans.
Yes, but in the human population, there are always "defective products", no matter what race they are from. John W. Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer and the Washington DC Sniper are also humans, but they have done deeds that shown that they are simply not fit to continue living in the human population anymore. Many years back I listened to one of my Grand Uncle's neighbors, whose father had been a member of the "Inner Mongolian Mounted Patrols" during the turn of the 20th century and had fought in the Boxer Rebellion, tell his father's stories of what he had seen and done during the conflict. On one of the skirmishes the rangers had captured 20 Spanish soldiers that were guarding one of the foreign legations in Beijing. "Put em' face facing sky in a ditch and ran them over with a steam tractor". That was to put in short description what this guy's father and his men had done with the Spaniards. He even went on to say that he was the operator of one of the machines and afterward used the excavator's claw to mash up the remains into the dirt. Now these Spaniards may not have been looting and pillaging, but by that time of the war, tempers have already boiled well beyond control. There are other accounts of what that group had done to other captured foreign soldiers and sailors that would have made the deeds of "Tookie" Williams seem like a child baking bread. But that is the ugly face of war. Now I was a pretty emotionally stout youngin', but that story really f****d with my head. That is most likely why, just like a vast majority of other gun enthusiasts and martial arts professionals who mastered truly deadly techniques, I have never had any desire to be in conflict with anyone, much less wanted to be in a war unless family and loved ones were in danger. Ironically, I have a European Spanish GF now and I love her with all my heart. Funny to think of things that could come back to try to mess up a man's head again, even if they were tales from a distant past.

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"Disturbing"? "Over the top"?? I find compassion and empathy for a German soldier during WW2 disturbing. I have a series of WW2 books, and the pictures of the holocaust and what the Germans did are unspeakable. Men like Askins are the reason a swastika isn't flying over our capital today. I knew a WW2 vet who fought in the battle of the bulge. He told me what it was like. Those Germans didn't have any compassion or empathy for Allied troops before or after being captured. It was kill or be killed.
THIS...And THIS

Quote:
A big, burly German prisoner of war in the midst of sabotage, wielding a Ball peen hammer is not "unarmed", at least as far as I am concerned. Sounds like a 230 FMJ cured his issues and perhaps sent a clear message to the rest of his crew. Sorry, no compassion here.
I think there was a movie made in the 1950s or so with Lee Marvin as the lead and it features an innocent Midwestern farm kid who joins the US Army to fight the Axis in the Western Theater. He joined with a big heart and optimism for even the distant enemy that he was heading towards to fight. But then along the way, his unit liberates several death camps and rescues many starving and emaciated prisoners. After that, this farm boy wasn't so lenient anymore and I think in one the scenes he shot an already surrendered SS camp guard up to 20+ times with his service rifle. I bet a lot of these incidents happened even in the US and British armies, with or without an officer's approval. Perhaps a faint nod, and an officer would walk away pretending not to see it. It is hard not for raw emotions to rage out of control when a normal man sees something like Auschwitz or Dachau. Every soldier, regardless of nationality, who was involved in the liberation of these camps probably wanted to feed a German soldier feet-first through a wood chipper. Everybody knows war sucks, but there are those people who must be held accountable for their actions. The SS were scum, and a lot of these scum were properly dealt with by the Russians, Yugoslavs, Poles and many others who REALLY harbored a grudge. A lot of regular Wehrmacht infantrymen were probably not involved in the actual business of the Final Solution, but they associated with the wrong crowd and in the midst of a nasty war such as that, many men are simply "guilty by association".

Quote:
Askins had a lot of stories and was a good writer, but my conclusion after reading his autobiography is that if he was telling the truth he was probably a psychopath. He appeared to have no compunctions about killing people, even when he was in no danger and other methods would have worked just as well. More to the point, he was not at all ashamed of his behavior.
He would only be a psychopath if he had killed the German POW simply for fun or because he wanted to "know what it was like", as said by many a movie serial killer. But if he killed him because he witnessed the results of a Nazi death camp a week earlier, then he has my sympathies. After all, were I a soldier liberating one of these camps, and then capturing Nazi prisoners, there is a very good bet that these Nazis would not have seen the next sunrise, ever again.
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Old November 11, 2018, 11:47 AM   #38
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In case it was a question, I don't think that their is a good close contact weapon unless it would be a hammerless or shrouded revolver.

Close in and contact explicitly involves probable interference with a hammer, a slide, other possible things, even your own clothes and fingers can interfere. Even the revolver cylinder might snag on a bit of cloth, or even be grabbed. Can't fire a revolver if it doesn't revolve, right?

In a grapple a good knife with rubber grip and at least a nominal hilt seems to be a worthwhile addition.
This pretty much hammers in the nail. Different types of situations demand different types of tools. I would use a Dremel with a cutting wheel if I wanted to fit a length of copper pipe to my specifications, but I certainly would not use that same rig to, lets say, remove a bit of extra solder from a circuit board.

To answer the OP question, there is NO such thing as "too close", because in many SD situations, it is the perp who chose to victimize you at that point in time, whether it is a robbery, or kidnapping, rape or attempted murder, and he/she may come in real close to you, or stay some distance back and use a baseball bat or other type of weapon. Bottom line is, we did not choose this battleground. Someone else chose for us and it is up to us to respond using the right equipment, if we want to make it out there in one piece.

Personally speaking, once a situation turns into a contact range fight, a firearm is pretty much out of the question. For one main reason. Remember what we have been taught in basic gun safety and maintenance regarding BORE OBSTRUCTIONS? A fragment of wadding remaining in a barrel have destroyed many a fine hunting rifle and injured their operators. Now in an SD situation, the perp's body would have become a bore obstruction. There is simply no telling just what will happen when the projectile and all of it's hot propellant gasses are fired into a blocked barrel. Perhaps the bullet will enter the body of the assailant, do it's work and save your life. Or the barrel may explode in your face and shower you with pieces of metal, if the barrel already has a latent undetected defect in the metal from the finishing process. Perhaps the barrel may simply bulge. Nonetheless you are now holding a ruined weapon and if there are multiple assailants, you are screwed.

That is why, for the possibility of confrontations that may turn into a life or death grappling match, I always have a tactical folding knife as part of my EDC kit. Preferably one that has an assisted-opening mechanism with a finger activated switch. I have several of these. Schrades, Smith & Wesson and Black Legion. With blade lengths varying between 3.5 to 4 inches and sporting partially serrated cutting edges. Most of these are either linerlocks or framelocks and are built like tanks. Even without the blade being deployed, the knife can be gripped and the swivel part of the frame used as a pretty nasty and effective blunt impact weapon. Knives are not just weapons. They are also tools, and I believe I never, ever walked out of the door without having a tactical knife, flashlight and a trusty Zippo as part of my belt. Guns? Depending on the laws in the area I am in and on the nature of where I am going to. Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't. But a knife has always been part of my kit.
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Old November 11, 2018, 12:07 PM   #39
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It's difficult to Monday morning quarterback these types of things with a black and white response.

If you haven't taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you really don't know.

If you have taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you still don't really know. But you have an idea.

The "belly gun" is one I used to carry when I would carry my main sidearm at my strong-side. The revolver was a Smith and Wesson 360PD appendix. It was carried there for that very reason. In being a belly gun. Unlike a semi-automatic where the slide needs to reciprocate to chamber the next round, the revolver just spins in place and you can dump all 5-6+ rounds into someone with much less chance of a stoppage.


So yes, they are better in that. What's best in all is avoid stupid places, at stupid times, and with stupid people.

Distance is always best and nothing, I mean nothing goes like you think it will. In any scenario, you can conjure up.


With all this said, I highly recommend a force on force class.
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Old November 11, 2018, 12:28 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Rachen View Post
This pretty much hammers in the nail. Different types of situations demand different types of tools. I would use a Dremel with a cutting wheel if I wanted to fit a length of copper pipe to my specifications, but I certainly would not use that same rig to, lets say, remove a bit of extra solder from a circuit board.

To answer the OP question, there is NO such thing as "too close", because in many SD situations, it is the perp who chose to victimize you at that point in time, whether it is a robbery, or kidnapping, rape or attempted murder, and he/she may come in real close to you, or stay some distance back and use a baseball bat or other type of weapon. Bottom line is, we did not choose this battleground. Someone else chose for us and it is up to us to respond using the right equipment, if we want to make it out there in one piece.

Personally speaking, once a situation turns into a contact range fight, a firearm is pretty much out of the question. For one main reason. Remember what we have been taught in basic gun safety and maintenance regarding BORE OBSTRUCTIONS? A fragment of wadding remaining in a barrel have destroyed many a fine hunting rifle and injured their operators. Now in an SD situation, the perp's body would have become a bore obstruction. There is simply no telling just what will happen when the projectile and all of it's hot propellant gasses are fired into a blocked barrel. Perhaps the bullet will enter the body of the assailant, do it's work and save your life. Or the barrel may explode in your face and shower you with pieces of metal, if the barrel already has a latent undetected defect in the metal from the finishing process. Perhaps the barrel may simply bulge. Nonetheless you are now holding a ruined weapon and if there are multiple assailants, you are screwed.

That is why, for the possibility of confrontations that may turn into a life or death grappling match, I always have a tactical folding knife as part of my EDC kit. Preferably one that has an assisted-opening mechanism with a finger activated switch. I have several of these. Schrades, Smith & Wesson and Black Legion. With blade lengths varying between 3.5 to 4 inches and sporting partially serrated cutting edges. Most of these are either linerlocks or framelocks and are built like tanks. Even without the blade being deployed, the knife can be gripped and the swivel part of the frame used as a pretty nasty and effective blunt impact weapon. Knives are not just weapons. They are also tools, and I believe I never, ever walked out of the door without having a tactical knife, flashlight and a trusty Zippo as part of my belt. Guns? Depending on the laws in the area I am in and on the nature of where I am going to. Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't. But a knife has always been part of my kit.
Given that squibs aren't entirely uncommon and usually result in a bulged barrel but not an exploded barrel, I wonder if saying you'll be showered with barrel fragments is overselling it a bit. I agree bore obstructions are obviously bad, but what we're talking about often doesn't form a perfect seal and shouldn't result in nearly the pressure spike of a obstruction inside the barrel. There are absolutely instances of shootings where pistols have been discharged against an assailant without detonating the pistol in the process (and I wonder if part of that is due to the recoil operated action of pistols allowing for some gases to escape out the rear of the chamber as the case is being extracted, but I am far from the expert of some people here). There are also retention positions for shooting that help mitigate that issue.

None of this is meant to say that knives can't and aren't extremely effective close quarters weapons, I just don't know if pistols are as prone to detonation as is described above.

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Old November 11, 2018, 12:30 PM   #41
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It's difficult to Monday morning quarterback these types of things with a black and white response.

If you haven't taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you really don't know.

If you have taken a force on force class with sim rounds, you still don't really know. But you have an idea.

The "belly gun" is one I used to carry when I would carry my main sidearm at my strong-side. The revolver was a Smith and Wesson 360PD appendix. It was carried there for that very reason. In being a belly gun. Unlike a semi-automatic where the slide needs to reciprocate to chamber the next round, the revolver just spins in place and you can dump all 5-6+ rounds into someone with much less chance of a stoppage.


So yes, they are better in that. What's best in all is avoid stupid places, at stupid times, and with stupid people.

Distance is always best and nothing, I mean nothing goes like you think it will. In any scenario, you can conjure up.


With all this said, I highly recommend a force on force class.
Which is why the answer to the OP question may very well be "no". Because our job as responsible citizens and family folk is to stay out of trouble, keep our loved ones out of trouble, and be able to respond accordingly when trouble do hit us. We may have our minds set to doing good things and productive things, but the streetrat lurking in a dark corner trying to figure out a way to break in your house for easy crack money don't think like that. He has already chosen his battleground, with you as the unwitting and unsuspecting participant. And tools and training, good training that is, do just that, to provide you with the resources to turn the tables on him.

This subject is really thought-provoking and is a lot like defensive driving. After all, I am not worried about cruising into another lane and hitting someone. I know that will never happen because I am physically and mentally fit to drive and I thoroughly make sure the equipment I am driving is in road-safe condition, always. BUT...that doesn't mean someone else might not cruise into my lane and hit me. For someone driving a compact car, that is already a nightmarish scenario. And I drive a Kenworth flatbed...A lot of times with a Caterpillar backhoe strapped to the cargo slab. Trying to swerve or make sudden movements to avoid another motorist, especially on a wet or frozen motorway, is just asking for loads of trouble. Defensive driving and driving experience help me stay focused as well as observant of my surroundings, so when someone makes a traffic error that can result in an emergency, I would know how to react. Hopefully.
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Old November 11, 2018, 01:13 PM   #42
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Rachen your definition of psychopath is as wrong as your conclusion regarding Askins behavior. Askins, by his own admission killed because he could, without remorse. By definition psychopathic behavior. Rationalization of inhumane behavior in response to real or imagined
inhumane behavior is not how rational humans behave. I accept that in war good men can cross the line. Askins was not a good man who went too far. He was a psychopath taking advantage of power and position to do his evil.
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Old November 11, 2018, 01:14 PM   #43
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Given that squibs aren't entirely uncommon and usually result in a bulged barrel but not an exploded barrel, I wonder if saying you'll be showered with barrel fragments is overselling it a bit. I agree bore obstructions are obviously bad, but what we're talking about often doesn't form a perfect seal and shouldn't result in nearly the pressure spike of a obstruction inside the barrel as simple over the top of the bore. There are absolutely instances of shootings where pistols have been discharged against an assailant without detonating the pistol in the process (and I wonder if part of that is due to the recoil operated action of pistols allowing for some gases to escape out the rear of the chamber as the case is being extracted, but I am far from the expert of some people here). There are also retention positions for shooting that help mitigate that issue.

None of this is meant to say that knows can't and aren't extremely effective close quarters weapons, I just don't know if pistols are as prone to detonation as is described above.
Yeah I concede on that one. I was being a bit exaggerating about what a bore obstruction can do but just to illustrate how dangerous it can be and how much we all want to avoid it. Garlic cloves and banana peels have often resulted from the use of improper ammunition, debris clogging the bore, or firing a squib which gets stuck inside the bore and then subsequently firing another round into the barrel. These would be just as undesirable as having a barrel "detonate". Not only is your gun possibly permanently ruined, but if there is still a fight going on and you only have that gun at hand, things will turn bad very quickly. Even though we today have a whole world of physics and ballistics info at our disposal, looking at and reading accounts of actual gunshot wounds or NDs involving objects being hit, it seems that what a bullet would actually do upon the ignition of the cartridge is still up to pure chance. If there is a chance where firing into a contact range target would damage my gun and possibly injure me also, I would not want to attempt it.
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Old November 11, 2018, 01:32 PM   #44
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Rachen your definition of psychopath is as wrong as your conclusion regarding Askins behavior. Askins, by his own admission killed because he could, without remorse. By definition psychopathic behavior. Rationalization of inhumane behavior in response to real or imagined
inhumane behavior is not how rational humans behave. I accept that in war good men can cross the line. Askins was not a good man who went too far. He was a psychopath taking advantage of power and position to do his evil.
I have not delved fully into Askin's accounts but if that was what he said, then certainly, he is a psychopath. Just like that guy from the movie "War Hunt". Wasn't he killing POWs in the Korean War and then turned out to be a serial killer who also murdered people in San Francisco? I thought if maybe he had said: "I saw what these Germans did to these poor folks in Auschwitz and now I am gonna give em' a piece of my mind", we can sympathize with him. Remember that case a while back about how some dirtbag raped and murdered a 5 year old boy and got off on an insanity rap? The boy's father waited outside the courtroom and blasted the dirtbag pointblank with a .38 snubbie and it was on video too.
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:15 PM   #45
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a gun that is good for "too close" like a Charter Arms Bulldog .44spl.... loses its advantage when the distance is in your favor....
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:18 PM   #46
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21 feet is still taught in LE academies.
no it is not. please tell me which ones still teach this?
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Old November 11, 2018, 03:56 PM   #47
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Yes, but in the human population, there are always "defective products", no matter what race they are from.
Unless you knew who the German POW was and what his criminal history was, this is totally irrelevant.

And yes, the POW was German, but killing people purely because of their nationality/ancestry is completely unacceptable--and if you think about it, using such an argument in support of killing Germans during WWII is tremendously ironic given that Germany's greatest crime was killing people purely because of their ancestry.
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I think there was a movie made in the 1950s or so...
If your frame of reference for this type of issue is movies, then perhaps you should do some other research before trying to discourse on the subject.
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The SS were scum...
1. You don't know that the German POW was SS.
2. Even if he were SS, it would still be a war crime to shoot him in the manner Askins described.
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He would only be a psychopath if...
Perhaps you should look up the definition of psychopath before trying to tell others what it is.
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I thought if maybe he had said: "I saw what these Germans did to these poor folks in Auschwitz and now I am gonna give em' a piece of my mind", we can sympathize with him.
1. The incident took place early in the war, before anyone outside of Germany knew about the concentration camps.
2. Askins' account does not suggest or even hint that he was shooting the German for any reason other than the damage being done to the vehicles.
3. Even had he known about Auschwitz, shooting a POW in the manner described would still be murder.
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The boy's father waited outside the courtroom and blasted the dirtbag pointblank with a .38 snubbie and it was on video too.
Gary Plauche was charged with 2nd degree murder for killing the rapist/abductor of his 11 year old son but pleaded to manslaughter and was given a 7 year sentence.
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Old November 11, 2018, 04:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JERRYS. View Post
no it is not. please tell me which ones still teach this?
Jefferson County Combined Academy. They teach more cadets in CO than any other and are widely considered a leading Department in the Country.

Maybe not taught as a "rule" which some departments improperly ascribed to the Tueller drill, but more as a distance at which you have to take action. What action you take is of course situation specific and is based on a lot of factors, but still, that does not eliminate that 21 feet is a distance as which, in most cases, a person, depending on his demeanor and actions, might be a threat.
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Old November 11, 2018, 04:18 PM   #49
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Jefferson County Combined Academy. They teach more cadets in CO than any other and are widely considered a leading Department in the Country.
I'm sorry to hear that.
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Old November 11, 2018, 04:22 PM   #50
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I added some context Jerry. I don't think they are off in their teaching in this area.
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