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Old August 10, 2016, 06:21 PM   #26
Bartholomew Roberts
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What is their definition of " systemized production of ammunition"?
You mean today or 20 years from now? I'd think at this point in the current administration we all realize that any term not strictly defined by Congress is fluid and subject to arbitrary change designed solely to piss off gun owners.
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Old August 10, 2016, 10:08 PM   #27
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This argument could be made, although I suspect the ATF won't be running around looking to law home reloaders using a progressive press. They don't even prosecute half the people whom they catch lying on the 4473. Still just because it is highly unlikely that you would be prosecuted over a vague definition doesn't mean there's no reason to worry about it.
It's not about who they're going to prosecute, it's that the vast majority of people will self-enforce without prosecution because they are law-abiding.

I would think that the 1050 with its motorized system and significant automation would qualify.
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The only people it really hinders are machinists and advanced gunsmiths... a number so few that their voice won't garner even pro 2A attention.
Well, it has already garnered pro 2A attention--that should be somewhat encouraging.

But you're on target about the strategy. Generally it's a bad idea to anger a huge group of voters, so the strategy is to nibble around the edges, making slow gains but never making a lot of voters angry at one time. They don't have a time limit, so they can afford to take very small steps.
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Old August 11, 2016, 04:10 AM   #28
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Reloading might just be the next big hit. The administration loves the idea of modeling the the US after the EU; many EU countries made reloading illegal.

The definition of "systematic" means whatever they want it to mean, down the road it won't just mean motorized. IF that's what it even means today.

I can see primers redefined to come under the same restrictions as blasting caps. I can see smokeless and black powder coming under the same restrictions as TNT. It will just take them a while. Or maybe not that long at all.

Many are focused on the annual fee. Writing that check is the least onerous part of the process. Compliance reporting requirements make up most of the hassle. A company I worked for had 3-4 people just tracking the paperwork and reporting potential exports to the government. That company had to "ask permission" for potential exports on a monthly basis to receive what amounted to a "tracking number." Every potential export must be reported and logged in real time.

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Old August 11, 2016, 04:11 PM   #29
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As someone ignorant to all of this.... This is a scary thread.
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Old August 12, 2016, 05:54 PM   #30
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As someone ignorant to all of this.... This is a scary thread.
+1.
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Old August 13, 2016, 08:11 AM   #31
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I would think that the 1050 with its motorized system and significant automation would qualify.
So how long until discussion of the same in Reloading is treated like select fire conversions?
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Old August 13, 2016, 08:42 AM   #32
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I would say the answer to that depends pretty heavily on the outcome of the next election.
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Old August 14, 2016, 11:45 AM   #33
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The wording 'systematic production' of ammunition was very carefully chosen.

Your reloading bench is the next target, believe it or not, give it a few years and it will happen.

Elections have consequences. Vote this November.
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Old August 14, 2016, 02:18 PM   #34
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Well, I don't claim to know a bunch about import/export laws, and how they effect guns and such, but I do believe if this President is involved with anything related to firearms, then it probably is not to our advantage.

His track record and what he says does make a difference. JMHO.
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Old August 14, 2016, 08:59 PM   #35
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Concrete proof that "common sense regulations" is a complete lie. I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that the number of crimes committed with reloads and the number of gunsmiths who export anything is near zero.

Time to buy a flintlock and a ball mill.
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Old August 17, 2016, 02:53 PM   #36
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Time to buy a flintlock and a ball mill.
I don't know if you jest or not, but I actually have looked into what I could do to sustain firearms enthusiasm in my family and pass the art down once there is a sin tax on ammo, firearms are registered, etc. Let's just say I REALLY like the idea of a bullet trap to recycle lead and I'm happy to shoot black powder when all else fails... if there isn't a revolution that I actively support if there is confiscation/bans without a constitutional amendment. Were the 2nd to ever be repealed??? Meh... I'll move to Canada and deal with their asinine permitting system.
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Old August 17, 2016, 07:11 PM   #37
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I was only partially joking...

I actually think we're a long way from a total ban on civilian ownership. I can see many, many incremental steps along the way and I have a hard time believing that the anti's will be able to enact them all in my lifetime.

I think there most likely will be a day in my son's life when the U.S. implements Australian style gun control. I still don't think he'll ever be prohibited from owning a ML or buying powder and ball.

If it ever got that bad, owning a flintlock and ball mill would be pointless. The penalty for getting caught with it would make it folly. You would never be able to shoot it anyway without someone hearing and calling Big Brother.
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Old August 17, 2016, 08:51 PM   #38
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ball mill
????
Do you mean a milling machine for making spheres???


Why on Earth would you need that for a flintlock???
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Old August 18, 2016, 08:07 AM   #39
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I think he meant a ball mold.
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Old August 18, 2016, 08:17 AM   #40
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Actually,I have milled a number of spheres on a Bridgeport with a rotary table and a boring head.You tilt the mill head and pass the cutter tip through the axis of rotation as you rotate the table.Think,the cutter path of a fly cutter or the boring head is a circle.You can always lay a circle on a sphere.You can make a hemispherical cavity(ball mold) the same way with a square ended end mill.

But,thats a side note.

There is a way of rolling the balls between two discs to reform the sprue,etc into a more true sphere.

Your plan of a flintlock is sound.Cap and ball revolvers,too.

Till the EPA makes lead possession a capital crime.
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Old August 18, 2016, 08:23 AM   #41
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Lead is already a target as are lead balls and bullets.

Casting lead balls and bullets will be illegal in the not so distant future.

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Old August 18, 2016, 04:57 PM   #42
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So is this new directive on reloading and handloading via automation and systematic, contingent on weather or not this ammo is being sold or is it based on the simple fact that it is being "manufactured"??
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Old August 18, 2016, 07:17 PM   #43
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I know the difference between a mold for casting balls and a mixer/grinder for making black powder.

While it is possible to make black powder with nothing but the ingredients, a bowl and a stick, a ball mill is virtually required for making black powder that is consistent enough to use and have any hope at consistent velocities and accuracy.

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/.../ball-mill.asp
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Old August 19, 2016, 09:02 AM   #44
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I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that the number of crimes committed with reloads and the number of gunsmiths who export anything is near zero.
You'd win that bet easily. This is the same mentality behind 41P.

It's not about reducing violence; it's about making it harder to own guns in general, which has always been the agenda.
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Old August 19, 2016, 02:00 PM   #45
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Can't you just evade the regulation by reloading in a haphazard, non systematic fashion? We all know people who do that. Take my friends Stubby and threeFingers for example
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Old August 21, 2016, 02:41 PM   #46
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Can't you just evade the regulation by reloading in a haphazard, non systematic fashion? We all know people who do that. Take my friends Stubby and threeFingers for example
Good point, my reloading is devoid of any systematic approaches. I'd say it borders on sporadic so I should be good!
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Old August 22, 2016, 08:23 PM   #47
Tinbucket
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ITAR Registration Fee

Where does the ITAR Registration Fee of 2250.00 end up: at the UN?
Frrom what I've been reading, Manufacturers of Rifle scopes, Telescopes, gun stocks, reloading equipment, brass, bullets, powder, and a very long list and a lot that has nothing to do with firearms and certainly not to export.
It appears to be a tax on most American Manufacturers, not to mention onerous regulations and records keeping.
No wonder everything cost so much.

After posting this I see a related earlier post, that possibly this should have been tagged on to.
Move it or delete or leave it mod. sorry bout that

Last edited by Tinbucket; August 22, 2016 at 08:31 PM.
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Old August 22, 2016, 08:41 PM   #48
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As I understand it is the manufacturing ffl fee that you pay to the federal government. That hasn't changed, just what is considered "manufacturing." It used to be a company that actually makes guns. Now its a gunsmith that can ream a chamber to change a barrel...

Still makes me mad.. Asinine rule change to "comply with an arms treaty..." One that was signed years ago but this has just now come up in the last few months of Obamas presidency.
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Old August 22, 2016, 09:49 PM   #49
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There is still a lot of debate about what is manufacturing.
I know most 07 FFLs do not pay the fee.
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Old August 23, 2016, 10:29 AM   #50
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Merged new thread on ITAR into the existing thread.
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