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Old July 8, 2016, 09:42 AM   #1
Lohman446
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I think I liked the term assault rifle better

In the many discussions about gun control the term assault weapon seems to have been at the forefront. While we liked to argue about the proper or improper use of that term we all knew what we were talking about. That "evil black rifle" with the detachable magazine.

In his recent response President Obama used the term "powerful weapons"

I think I liked the use of the term "assault rifle" better
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Old July 8, 2016, 09:53 AM   #2
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Is there a 'low-powered assault rifle'?

Are there 'non-powerful weapons'?

Conditioning by the use of pejorative words has been around for a long time.

When a scoped deer rifle becomes a 'high-powered sniper rifle' in the media, the war of words is already lost.
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Old July 8, 2016, 10:05 AM   #3
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I’m sure the use of “powerful weapon” is being used to condition the American people for an expansion of the number weapons these folks want to ban. I’m sure they already feel it’s just a matter of time until purchasing an AR style rifle is made illegal, so time to expand the list to include other items.
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Old July 8, 2016, 11:39 AM   #4
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Is there a 'low-powered assault rifle'?
Yeah, it's called the AR-15. It has been lamented for not being able to reliably pierce car doors, windshields, or rudimentary body armor. The whole idea that it "shoots through tanks" (Jesse Jackson) or it "chews a deer to pieces" (Whoopi Goldberg) feeds into the anti-gun narrative. They know none of us will get a credible chance to correct the misconception, so they run with it.

They know that, by defining the terms, they can steer the debate.
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Old July 8, 2016, 01:38 PM   #5
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The term "Assault Rifle" is well defined as a Select Fire rifle of intermediate caliber. Assault weapon not well defined. that is why the definition in law, state to state varies greatly. Mostly they cover ergonomic features not the actual internal workings of the rifle. I just bought an M1A rifle. I don't know if any state has an out right ban on the M1A. My state doesn't have any sort of AWB not that the anti gun crowd doesn't keep trying.

As an addition as most know the AR15 and the like fire a 5.56 caliber bullet ( .223 in the civilian world, where the M1A uses a 7.62 bullet (.308). In the hunting world the cartridge used in the AR15 is commonly used as a varmint round and the .308 is used on game deer size.

IMNSHO calling the 5.56 "Powerful" is a misnomer.
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Old July 8, 2016, 01:42 PM   #6
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The term "Assault Rifle" is well defined as a Select Fire rifle of intermediate caliber.
In technical terms, yes.

In political terms, the antis have turned it into a blanket term that pretty much covers whatever firearm they want to demonize.
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Old July 8, 2016, 01:47 PM   #7
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I do get a chuckle when they call the ar15 a powerful weapon with a powerful military cartridge. It's kinda ironic because gun lowers everywhere bash the 5.56 for lack of power.
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Old July 8, 2016, 01:58 PM   #8
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I did not see the entirety of the statement. What concerns me is we have changed from "assault weapon" to "powerful weapon". We can argue the technical merits of "assault rifle" all day but it seems that various laws have defined it and that definition was relatively narrow. "Powerful weapon" is a MUCH broader term that covers a much broader amount of firearms.
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Old July 8, 2016, 02:17 PM   #9
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AR-Types works for me.

I feel that one should first be relatively knowledgeable about what they are talking about. Assault Rifle in one of those terms that get misused. ...

I first heard the term "Heavy-Weapons" as well as High-Power weapons, use by O'Reilly. It's obvious that our president is watching Bill. Neither one knows what he is talking abut when it comes to these statements. O'Reilly had admitted that he knows nothing abut rifles and it shows. Our president should admit the same. Lots of luck with that one. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old July 8, 2016, 02:37 PM   #10
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We can argue the technical merits of "assault rifle" all day but it seems that various laws have defined it and that definition was relatively narrow.
We can, we have, and I'm sure we will again.

To be precise, Assault Rifle is a technical term used in the shooting community, defined as "select fire, intermediate power cartridge", etc. The origin of the term comes from the German Sturmgewehr, fielded in the last couple years of WWII.

Before all the hysteria began, the shooting community itself was rather lax in applying the term, and often used it tongue in cheek referring to semi auto military lookalikes.

Assault Weapon is a term coined in the early 90s, during the run up to the 94AWB. It was created by the anti gunners, because we kept pointing out how they were in ERROR using the term "assault rifle".

There is no definition if Federal Law for "assault rifle", because under the law, they are machineguns, and referred to as such.

ASSAULT WEAPON became defined in law in the 94 AWB, and those state laws that generally copied it. Assault WEAPONS are semi autos, with certain cosmetic features. Rifles, pistols and shotguns.

Because people are sloppy in their use of language, (or are deliberately misleading) a firearm that is a rifle, and fits the law's description of an assault weapon, gets called an "assault rifle", inaccurately. And now we have come full circle.

"Powerful weapon" is indeed ominous sounding. And it is ANYTHING they choose it to be. The observed "standard" for use of that term, in the journalistic (and political) community for many decades has been anything more powerful than a .22LR is a "powerful weapon".

Its their default setting. A centerfire rifle is a "powerful weapon". Period, end of information, that's all the public needs to know.

Everybody's deer rifle is a powerful weapon. The AR round is a powerful weapon (after all, the military uses it), etc.

What we know as correct, doesn't matter to them. Their standards are not our standards. And, they WANT to frighten people.....
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Old July 8, 2016, 02:49 PM   #11
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Their standards are not our standards.
Considering my misuse of the terms in argument I am not certain that our standards are our standards... then again it may be a case where I am not always up to standards.
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Old July 8, 2016, 03:16 PM   #12
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I'm willing to give the POTUS the benefit of the doubt on the "powerful weapons" thing; keep in mind that the press conference was apparently broadcast in the early morning on Friday when the events in Dallas were still unfolding, and it may have been unclear at the time that an "assault thingy" was being used.

I'll reserve judgment until we see whether the term reappears in the press and/or political speeches.

Back to the broader topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
ASSAULT WEAPON became defined in law in the 94 AWB, and those state laws that generally copied it. Assault WEAPONS are semi autos, with certain cosmetic features. Rifles, pistols and shotguns.
FWIW I've sensed a shift in recent political discourse away from Assault WEAPON and towards Assault RIFLE. I think the focus is being subtly shifted away from pistols (protected by the Heller decision and popular with CHL holders) and shotguns (favored by Uncle Joe when he's not polishing his Trans Am ) and towards AR/AK style rifles. I sense a so-called "compromise" consisting of leaving the former weapons largely untouched while enacting more punitive measures aimed at the latter, i.e. no lawful resale and/or full registration.
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Last edited by carguychris; July 8, 2016 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Had terms backwards!
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Old July 8, 2016, 03:22 PM   #13
Lohman446
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I'm willing to give the POTUS the benefit of the doubt on the "powerful weapons" thing
There are a lot of ways to look at it. One is that President Obama has intentionally walked away from the term "assault rifle" or "assault weapon" after concern about misuse of the various terms and represents at least an attempt to avoid the use of incorrect terminology.

The other is a concern that the conversation is shifting away from "assault weapons" to a much much broader category.
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Old July 8, 2016, 03:54 PM   #14
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446 that is a reason that the papers raise so much hell about AW they do not know what one is and people that do not know jest gives them fuel for the fire!! So don,t call it what it is NOT. I call my 223 by the maker name Bushmaster Arma Lite and so on
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Old July 8, 2016, 04:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Yeah, it's called the AR-15. It has been lamented for not being able to reliably pierce car doors, windshields, or rudimentary body armor. The whole idea that it "shoots through tanks" (Jesse Jackson) or it "chews a deer to pieces" (Whoopi Goldberg) feeds into the anti-gun narrative. They know none of us will get a credible chance to correct the misconception, so they run with it.

They know that, by defining the terms, they can steer the debate.
Is it known at this point exactly what "high powered" "assault weapon" the shooter used? Do we know that it was an AR-15, or something chambered in .223/5.56x45?

Not long ago I began looking into the paradox of .223 rifles commonly being referred to by the media and the gun grabber politicians as "high powered" "military" rifles, yet many states think the .223 round isn't powerful enough to kill deer humanely. I started a thread to try to nail down how many states are in that camp:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577425

The thread was closed when the discussion wandered off topic and became too political, but the question was answered. Fourteen states do not allow .223 caliber centerfire ammo for hunting deer. Of course, we don't know just why they don't allow it (and I doubt they all have the same reason(s)), but the fact is that fourteen states don't allow it for hunting deer.

To me that argues persuasively against it's being a "high powered" cartridge.

Another very popular "assault weapon" cartridge is the 7.62x39 (AK-47). It's bigger in diameter, but in terms of ballistics IIRC isn't it roughly comparable to the good old .30-30 ("thutty thutty")? The .30-30 is a centerfire cartridge and most (but not all) states allow it for hunting deer, but it's not generally considered to be a "high powered" cartridge.
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Old July 8, 2016, 05:01 PM   #16
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All powerful weapons hold high capacity clips.
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Old July 8, 2016, 05:21 PM   #17
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The news is now reporting that the suspect that was killed (by a robot BOMB!) had an SKS "semi automatic assault weapon" and a handgun.
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Old July 8, 2016, 07:29 PM   #18
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Not even Chicago lists the SKS as an "assault weapon" lol.
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Old July 8, 2016, 07:33 PM   #19
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The news is now reporting that the suspect that was killed (by a robot BOMB!) had an SKS "semi automatic assault weapon"
So, "an AR-15 type rifle."
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Old July 8, 2016, 08:14 PM   #20
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In his recent response President Obama used the term "powerful weapons"
.223 Remington is the *least* powerful of all common centerfire rifle cartridges (5.45x39mm is less powerful, but it's not all that common).
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Old July 8, 2016, 08:34 PM   #21
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Get accustomed to it. The image of assault weapons (semi auto) will keep getting portrayed in a negative light until they are banned. Once they get the right mix in the legislature and a tragedy perfectly timed, the ban will happen.

In the meantime, states and cities will fall to bans.
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Old July 11, 2016, 02:46 PM   #22
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I heard it was Fox's News fault, in reporting the Dallas shooter had a SKS rifle...when in fact --- It was a SAIGA AK-74 Carbine in 5.45x39, with what looked like to me {picture of the AK-74 lying on the bomb debris} was some sort of red dot scope mounted atop a picatinny rail on the dust cover.

I own a SAIGA AK-74 myself.

I wonder if the Dallas shooter used "poison pill" 7N6 ammo?
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Old July 11, 2016, 04:13 PM   #23
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The gun folks who concentrate on how semi-auto, magazine fed rifles are labeled are doing no-one any good. It does not matter what you call it, it matters what it is. Anti-gunners (most of whom are liberals and use the liberal playbook) don't want to argue the actual facts and instead argue ancillary issues, strawman tactics, etc.

When the gun lobby falls for it and argues terminology instead of substance, we lose. Some might disagree, but it looks pretty clear to me.
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Old July 11, 2016, 06:23 PM   #24
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Engaging in an argument about proper terminology when discussing incidents like the Dallas policemen being killed by a deranged wingnut with a semi-auto rifle just derails the conversation. Instead of becoming more meaningful, the terminology topic is not useful to anyone interested in what is happening to our citizens. News media anchors and reporters either create rhetoric on the fly or are fed talking points created by writers that usually don't know cow feces from wild honey.
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Old July 11, 2016, 07:20 PM   #25
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Sugarmann Again?

Cut from NSSF page...
Quote:
Consider this statement from Josh Sugarmann of the Violence Policy Center:

"The public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons -- anything that looks like a machine gun is presumed to be a machine gun -- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons."
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