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Old August 25, 2006, 07:15 PM   #26
Art Eatman
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I've allus figgered that if the subject of a thread is of no interest to me, I probably ought not to bother reading that thread...

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Old August 25, 2006, 08:07 PM   #27
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Personally, I'd love to own a thompson sub. If nothing else, they look purdy friggen cool. I've never shot one, but seeing them on G&A and holding a semi-auto and working the action, etc., I find it pretty nice, though a little heavy. Would make an awesome self defense weapom IMO.

I agree, if you don't like the thread, just don't open it, it's that simple.
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Old August 25, 2006, 08:20 PM   #28
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A PPSh 43 would be a room clearing mutha. 1100 Rounds per minute!!!!
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Old August 25, 2006, 08:41 PM   #29
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Would the Thompson submachine gun be a good combat submachine gun for today?

I agree with many of the posters that it's outclassed by the UMP or the MP5 in that role. If I had to pick a WWII era SMG for use today, it would be a PPSh-41.

jmm
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Old August 25, 2006, 08:54 PM   #30
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I don't think it would be a good combat SMG today. Sure it might be a good gun for a small town police force but the word "combat" in today's world implies a hundred thousand ground troops with tanks, helicopters, bombers and ships. I think that it also implies a need for weapons which can be easily mass produced using modern tooling. The Thompson was semi-hand-made and required intricate machining, making it difficult to mass produce. It would seem that a better SMG would be one which was stamped or cast and which could be produced quickly in the tens of thousands.
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Old August 25, 2006, 10:34 PM   #31
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The vintage ones probably would work fine, but I wouldn't trust a Kahr Thompson as anything more than a club.
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Old August 25, 2006, 11:12 PM   #32
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The Thompson will not be a good choice as an SMG to fill military requirements in a house-to-house clearing mission, but I'm thinking in the hands of competent operators it can still do the job.

Quote:
The M4 and similar rifle-caliber carbines don't fill the need for an SMG, they simply eradicate it and makes the whole concept of an SMG obsolete. Or more exactly, the rifle caliber assault carbine is the weapon the original SMG designers
It is not a good choice since the M4 has better accessories to aid in making the job easier, but even the M4 is not faster than the MP5 when it comes to fast and furious clearing even more when opponents are willing and more than happy to meet their maker. I think the P90 will be a better choice since the rounds are more effective in defeating modern body armor than pistol calibers.
In a close quarter fight you need a fast and agile weapon, first bullet hit where it counts wins. josh
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Old August 26, 2006, 12:53 AM   #33
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Apologies for not having caught this one earlier.

It belongs in the NFA forum, NOT in Art of the Rifle.

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Old August 26, 2006, 08:13 AM   #34
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Well into the 1980's US Coast Guard used the "Tommy" for boarding ships. As much visual as well as bullet energy-wise it proved to be an effective weapon at sea.

The Tommy's greatest weakness is fairly short range. Difficult to hit a man sized target in the chest with any consistancy beyond 175 yards. Yes, it's been done; but I'm talking about consistancy. This is where the AK-47 wins as a hands-down favorite all across our planet.

When we lived in northern California, a neighbor was a USMC combat veteran of the Pacific Campaign of WW2. He saw a whole lot of action against the "Japs". Very interesting fellow. He favored the Tommygun and grenades above all other weapons and recalled many actual combat situations. Sadly, he died a couple years ago at age 84.
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Old August 26, 2006, 08:47 AM   #35
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Horse Soldier, Body armor has not made SMG's obsolete. Being shot by a pistol caliber carbine carries a greater chance of penetration than a regular pistol. In fact, gettings shot at all with body armor is still a risk factor. So it is far from obsolete, it may have hinder SOME of its abilities but nothing to the extent of making its use a thing of the past.

The Thompson is a fine weapon but it is heavy and extremely complicated and not to mention expensive. I'd love to own one just to be able to buy a fedora and play mobster for a few hours with some buddies, but if I was in a combat situation, I'd rather take an AK or an M4 with me (I hope I didn't open a barrel of worms..)
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Old August 26, 2006, 08:49 AM   #36
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I know of one instance where a perfect mint M1A Thompson WAS carried in recent combat (Afghanistan).

The American owner carried it lovingly and willingly in place of his M4A1. He KNEW the M4 was more practical on all counts, but just decided that he would never again have the opportunity to exercise his fantasy.

The weapon came from a cache, ammo was plentiful, and that Thompson rocked...everyone wanted it.

The owner had tears in his eyes when he re-deployed and passed it on to its next happy owner.

Most Afghans were duly impressed by that weapon. Most of them couldn't accurately employ their Kalashnikovs at any greater efective range than the Thompson was capable of (100 m).
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Old August 26, 2006, 01:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
ummm last i checked it was still 2006, hence the 1911 isn't quite 100 years old yet....
despite it's name, the 1911 was designed in 1905 I believe.


Quote:
It belongs in the NFA forum, NOT in Art of the Rifle.
Well, actually I was looking for the Full Auto forum (didn't there used to be one on TFL?) but couldn't find it. Art of Rifle seemed like the closest choice.

EDIT: I just looked a little closer at the summary of NFA Guns and Gear. Didn't it used to be title Full Auto something or other?
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Old August 26, 2006, 03:12 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug.38PR
I just looked a little closer at the summary of NFA Guns and Gear. Didn't it used to be title Full Auto something or other?
Sure did, Doug. There is a lot of interest in other weaponry such as suppressors, Short Barrelled Rifles and Shotguns, AOWs, and such, other than just full auto. Exact forum title and description were topics of much discussion but I think it works pretty well.

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Old August 26, 2006, 03:51 PM   #39
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Yeah, some members even took it upon themselves to yell at other posters for posting suppressor stuff and other class III stuff.

I would think the Thompson might be too heavy as well.
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Old August 26, 2006, 07:54 PM   #40
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Then again people lugged it back in the day, I don't see why weight should be too much of an issue. Besides, the .45 has that slow moving train UMPH that tends to make sure people stay down.
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Old August 26, 2006, 08:09 PM   #41
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Then again people lugged it back in the day, I don't see why weight should be too much of an issue.
More people were in shape back then. More farm boys and less city boys, and nobody had "computer fat".
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Old August 26, 2006, 09:39 PM   #42
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The weapon came from a cache, ammo was plentiful, and that Thompson rocked...everyone wanted it.
When I was in Balad after talking to ground pounders during our break for meals, I heard of an instance where an US soldier in Iraq wanted to use an AK47/74 and was told yes but still had to keep his M4/ammo available just in case his AK breaks. I was told the soldiers would pick up once dropped AKs expend all the ammo and then into the trophy room or burn pile it went. Our command tent had a few trophy AKs on the wall, but the EOD guys had everything from helwan 9mm, Walther MP and HKMP5 to FAL and Iraqi version of the Dragunov. We had an officer from the unit we relieved, he smuggled a crate full of live munitions, AKs, RPKs, RPGs and a variety of other stuff into the US. That just tells you that not all officers have gray matter in the cranium. Needless to say he must be making little rocks out of big rocks in Leavenworth Kansas. josh
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Old August 26, 2006, 09:54 PM   #43
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This hasn't been brought up, but, using non-standard weapons, in a combat zone, can be fatal. Quick story.

OCS graduate came to Nam with a 44. Magnum. In combat, he pulled and fired his 44. The different sound of the 44 attracted VC attention, that proved fatal.

I've often wondered if the same has occured in our current conflicts, and, if that, in itself, doesn't make some of these questions moot? I can understand if the weapon is chambered in a common caliber, like .223, 308, 9mm, or, a long range weapon, where the location will not be so easy to assess.

Perhaps a modified Thompson, to shoot 9mm?

Also, does different cylcing rates attract attention?

Why lug a Thompson, when a Cobray Mac10 weighs half the weight, is one of the easiest guns in the world to dissasemble and clean, and, with ball ammo, are incredibly reliable, not to mention near water proof?

S
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Old August 26, 2006, 10:58 PM   #44
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Quote:
he smuggled a crate full of live munitions, AKs, RPKs, RPGs and a variety of other stuff into the US.
Even though it's one of those federal crimes that would undoubtably lead him to a dark cold cell for longer than it's worth, wouldn't he most likely get probation or somesuch just for being a combat veteran? (especially if it was a first offense?)
I can't say I blame him too bad...it'd be pretty hard to pass up on all those toys..
Get good while the gettin's good...
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Old August 26, 2006, 11:15 PM   #45
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Would a Thompson be a good combat submachine gun for today?


Having shot one, and lots of modern SMG's, I would say no.
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Old August 28, 2006, 12:48 PM   #46
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The M4 is FAR from being an ideal SMG type platform. It works and does the job, but it is not the ideal platform. Sure you can bolt on lots of neato accesories, but you can do that with any weapon if the appropriate mounts are designed. The only advantage the M4 has is that it can use the stuff that was already around for the M-16/AR-15. The M4 has exesive muzzle blast that kicks up dust, and harms the operators hearing. It's no better at long range than a SMG because of the shorter sight radius and reduced lethality of 5.56 at extended range out of a short barrel. It shoots a little flatter yes, but it is basicly a 22LR once it gets there. Add a scope with a drop comp to either and you will be good out to 200 yards. I hate this M4/M-16/AR-15 worship. YES it will work in the CQC area, but it is not ideal and not the best item for the job.

In the military, you are part of a team, not alone on some SHTF island. Have a few guys with MP5s for room clearing. Give them AP ammo if you are messing yourself worrying about the BGs having body armor. (Most, if not all the armor they have isn't rated to stop pistol ammo anyway.) Have some other people have M-16s to take care of intermediate threats. (Some guy taking pot shots at you from 150 yards away.) Give the DM of the group a scoped M-14 for those rare times you need a longer shot.

Sorry to bust the bubble, but from what I have heard, the real "glory weapon" in current CQC in the Middle East is the gernade. Some people carry less ammo so they can carry more gernades. Why use you M4 with all those neato gadgets and expose yourself to enemy fire when you can chuck a gernade around the corner and take cover. The "Mirror on a stick" is a usefull thing to have as well.

It's like different size hammers. Somtimes you need a little hammer that is easy to manuver, quick, and light. Sometimes you need the big 8 lb sledge. You CAN make a hammer that will do many things. But sometimes it gets to the point where it is simply easier to have different hammers and take the right one to the job.
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Old August 28, 2006, 06:48 PM   #47
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Crosshair: I will respectfully disagree w/ recommendation for using MP5s as team issue CQB longguns when rifle caliber carbines are available (at least in a military context).

The MP5 has two sterling qualities as an SMG:

1) It offers better than average SMG accuracy due to its firing from a closed bolt and possessing decent sights (as opposed to open bolt and BB rifle sights of most SMGs).

2) The suppressed (SD) version is extremely quiet, making it effective for certain functions such as sentry removal or IADs from inside a vehicle.

Other than that, it suffers from the same major drawback as most SMGs...it's launching a pistol round (with only a slight gain in velocity over a handgun).

In my experience, the M4A1 is a far superior weapon at all ranges from 0-300 meters.

Nothing against the MP5 series. It's a great SMG design and I have used most variants extensively. It's just that the whole pistol caliber concept doesn't hold up when your enemy is hosing you with rifles, machineguns, and RPGs.
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Old August 30, 2006, 10:00 PM   #48
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Obsolete ?

Probably .

Cool factor = High



By the way , single shot's are not difficult even when set on FA .
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Old August 30, 2006, 11:06 PM   #49
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Guy,

I got to burp off a few mags with one of those at a Dept. shoot last summer. 25 or so years ago I got to run a 1921 with drums...we shot the '21 to 150 yards, and if you set the sights for the range and held up your end, you could get hits on a B27.

I have had the good fortune to get to run a lot of SMG's from the 1920's to present. Being a PoPo firearms trainer has very few perks, but this has been one of them I have yet to fire a MAC or a grease gun, though- not likely to show up in the copshop armory. While the old Tommy gun is heavy by current standards, but they are reliable and pretty accurate. I'd take one to a fight in a heartbeat. I liked the Uzi real well too- perhaps my favorite. HK's are allright, but no more accurate than an Uzi. I know they are all the rage in LE, but they never really turned my crank.

The most natural pointer for me was the Colt SMG9. I could throw an empty paint bucket over my shoulder 10-15 yards, turn when I heard it hit the ground, and grease it with burst from the Colt- with the gun tucked under my arm. I'm not a big AR guy, but this little gun really impressed me.

Nice pic-thanks for posting it.
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Old August 31, 2006, 07:23 AM   #50
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Hi Sarge

You cops have all the fun
I sold a 21 Colt last year that came in with a collection I bought for our store . They are the coolest smg by far considering the history and all . The records showed that it had been sold to a large mid-Ohio PD in the 20's . Wish I could've justified keeping it , but they're just to darn expensive . I've owned my 1942 Savage M1 since about 1990 . As you mention , it has proven to be reliable and accurate enough for it's intended mission . Gallon jugs at 50 yds are an easy target with single shots . Magazines are cheap too
So far , I've found it to be easier to manipulate than the M3 GG below . But , I've only had the M3 for a year . It's starting to grow on me though

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