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Old December 3, 2018, 03:21 AM   #76
Bartholomew Roberts
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The idea of legislators passing a law that they never intend to be really used, in order to be seen as "doing something" is not new in our Republic.
It isn’t new but it is certainly a danger. There are plenty of gun laws that could be enforced; but aren’t that would stem calls for more gun control. And selective enforcement can and in some places IS used against peaceable citizens who have the most to lose rather than criminals.

One example I like to use is my grandfather. He carried a pistol in his overalls since I was a boy and long before our state had a concealed carry law. He did it because he knew as a respected citizen, a property owner, and of the right color, he would likely never face the penalties for violating that law. He did not believe the law should work that way; but he knew how it did work.

Had he been missing one of those traits, he might well have had trouble and his fellow citizens would have applauded him being put away. While on the one hand, I appreciate how selective enforcement of the law benefitted a good man, I can’t help but I think that equal application of the law would have stopped an unjust law sooner and benefitted more good men.
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Old December 3, 2018, 04:49 AM   #77
Spats McGee
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
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What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.
I think this is something the NRA could compile and it might be very useful. Simply ask for volunteers at the local NRA shooting clubs to look up local ordinances and go down to the courthouse for a records check.

The local clubs submit the information and it is sent to the NRA corporate.
In order for any information or data to be useful, I think the process is going to have to be a wee bit more structured than "volunteers looking up ordinances & doing a records check," if I may understate the matter a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwilson452
I was wondering how many times a gun charge is dropped by a DA in exchange for a guilty plea on another offense. I can't always blame the DA for it, as in most districts they are under stress to end a case as cheaply as possible.
I suspect the answer is "regularly," particularly in states in which the gun charge is difficult to prove. In that case, it's the "throwaway charge," used for bargaining. For example, AR has the charge of Carrying a Weapon, which requires the prosecution to prove an intent to use the weapon unlawfully against a person. That's going to be more difficult than something like "Possession of a Defaced Firearm." If my defendant has CAW, Possession, Paraphernalia, and Resisting, the CAW is a bargaining chip. If he doesn't take my plea offer, we go to trial on everything.
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Old December 3, 2018, 12:18 PM   #78
davidsog
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In order for any information or data to be useful, I think the process is going to have to be a wee bit more structured than "volunteers looking up ordinances & doing a records check," if I may understate the matter a bit.
If it turns out to be useful, yes. However, I am not sure spending millions on it would be the best use of resources initially. See what's out there and learn the lessons on the best way to gather it on the cheap.

My point being this is something we could be putting into action NOW without spending a vast amount of limited resources on.
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Old December 3, 2018, 06:19 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
If it turns out to be useful, yes. However, I am not sure spending millions on it would be the best use of resources initially. See what's out there and learn the lessons on the best way to gather it on the cheap.

My point being this is something we could be putting into action NOW without spending a vast amount of limited resources on.
So, you propose . . . .what, exactly? Let me be sure I understand what you propose. I'll start with AB's post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB
I respectfully disagree. Local and state statistics are fragments. What we need is a coordinated, national effort. The statistics should list incidents, and then include an exhaustive examination of what federal, state, and local laws, statutes, ordinances, and regulations applied that were NOT cited, charged, and prosecuted.
And moved on to yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
I think this is something the NRA could compile and it might be very useful. Simply ask for volunteers at the local NRA shooting clubs to look up local ordinances and go down to the courthouse for a records check.

The local clubs submit the information and it is sent to the NRA corporate.
I've pointed out that I don't think this is a very useful plan. I've pointed out that I think it needs to be "a wee bit more structured than that." If I were on the antigun side, and attacking any data that came out of this, here's what I'd say about it:
  • It sounds like you want a bunch of volunteers,
    • who may or may not have any formal training in any applicable field (law, law enforcement, statistical analysis), and
    • who may or may not be given any sort of guidance from people trained in such fields;
    • to go look at court records and see what other charges those volunteers think should have been brought.
  • Are these witnesses going to read the Arrest/Disposition Reports?
  • Interview witnesses?
  • Examine evidence?
  • Are they going to investigate incidents in which charges were not brought, records of which may not be in "court records"?
A few more questions:
  • How exactly do you think they should make the determination that certain statutes are NOT being enforced?
  • On what basis will they decide when a charge could have been brought but was not?
  • Will they be examining the process by which prosecuting attorneys "bargain away" gun charges in plea deals?

The antgun side throws around all kinds of misleading numbers, and I'm pretty quick to ask, "how did they get that number?" If they used something like the methodology described above, I'd have a field day.
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Old December 4, 2018, 11:45 AM   #80
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I think you are overthinking things and putting the cart before the horse. Maybe it is because you evision volunteer gathered data as a finished product without considering secondary and tertiary actions.

We call it "paralysis by analysis".

Gather some preliminary data on the cheap initially. Some statistical math well let you know if there is something worth devoting resources towards. Then devote the resources and produce a polished product.
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Old December 4, 2018, 11:50 AM   #81
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No, it is because here in L&CR, we deal in specifics, not vague generalities.
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Old December 4, 2018, 11:55 AM   #82
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No, it is because here in L&CR, we deal in specifics, not vague generalities.
Ok. Sounds like a good qualified executor. You would be a big failure at accomplishing strategic goals.

Why? You have to have the ability to define the general and bring it to the specific. It is the forest for the trees as they say, LOL!



Seriously. How do you think we go into areas of the world we know absolutely nothing about, build a complete picture of an opposing, cellular, shadow group, and get to Leadership, Logistics, and money as well as all the other specifics such as socio-economic issues that created the insurgency/terrorist organization in the first place?

Last edited by davidsog; December 4, 2018 at 12:06 PM.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
Ok. Sounds like a good qualified executor. You would be a big failure at accomplishing strategic goals.

Why? You have to have the ability to define the general and bring it to the specific. It is the forest for the trees as they say, LOL!

You and I must have different ideas of what "bringing it to the specific means." I showed you the specific problems with your plan. I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps your understanding of courts and prosecution systems work is lacking.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:07 PM   #84
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You and I must have different ideas of what "bringing it to the specific means."
We do and I edit'ed my post to further explain.

Quote:
Seriously. How do you think we go into areas of the world we know absolutely nothing about, build a complete picture of an opposing, cellular, shadow group, and get to Leadership, Logistics, and money as well as all the other specifics such as socio-economic issues that created the insurgency/terrorist organization in the first place?
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:09 PM   #85
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Regardless of the answer to that question, I'm going to suggest that we all get back on topic. This thread is beginning to drift into something more akin to activism, which really isn't its purpose.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:33 PM   #86
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Regardless of the answer to that question, I'm going to suggest that we all get back on topic. This thread is beginning to drift into something more akin to activism, which really isn't its purpose.
I agree. I suspect you and I have the same goals. An internet BBS is a poor communication tool in many aspects.

I was answering AB's question of how do we get from a broad hypothesis to specific actionable data. Start small with what you know and can easily gather to expand from there. If the data supports the hypothesis...keep digging. If it does not, form a new hypothesis.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:37 PM   #87
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Glad that I took another look at this thread, Spats. After wading through all the posts for the last 2 days, I was ready to shut it down for being widely off topic, in lieu of deleting the myriad posts that are off topic.

I suggest everyone go back to the original post, and bring the discussion back to that.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:44 PM   #88
Al Norris
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Originally Posted by Davidsog
An internet BBS is a poor communication tool in many aspects.
Any specific medium of expression can be a poor tool. Like all tools, it is how it is used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidsog
I was answering AB's question ...
And completely ignoring Spats suggestion that we get back on topic. You were not asked to defend your posts. You were asked to get back on topic.
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Old December 4, 2018, 02:25 PM   #89
davidsog
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To Quote the OP:

Quote:
The notion that Constitutional rights refer to the relationship between people and government
Isn't seeking quantifiable data to show the relationship between people and Government on topic and in keeping with the OP's intent?
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Old December 4, 2018, 03:03 PM   #90
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More completely from the OP:
Quote:
The notion that Constitutional rights refer to the relationship between people and government is utterly foreign to them, and they'll go so far as to call you a fool for pointing it out.

Any thoughts? I have some ideas as to where this misguided thinking might come from, but I'd like to hear what others might say.
The underlined part is the main question of the OP. As it seems that we are not any closer to getting back on track, after 2 separate requests from moderators. . . .

Closed.
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