Ordered my 1851 .36 Navy today and ...

[Low Key]

I kinda thought that the pyrodex was a little easier to compress than goex, but I didn't know if it was just me or if it really does compress easier. I had also wondered if the granulation is what made the difference since I have fffg goex and the pyrodex I have used is equivalent to ffg (its actually what I use in my rifle) but you answered all that for me, thanks!
After I shoot up what remains of my 777, I'll be buying some pyrodex p to try out 40gr under the ball. Big BOOM! Lot's of fun!

[Remington kid]

Low Key. Make sure you wear ear protection. I'm not jokeing when I say it's like shooting my .44 black Hawk

[Low Key]

COOL! I do always wear ear protection and am a big believer in doing so. I damaged my hearing at the gun range when I was about 16 yrs old and my ears ring all the time ever since. (Everyone reading this please take note...don't shoot without hearing protection, you'll regret it)
But I still like the big boom you can feel in your chest when you shoot.

[Old Dragoon]

And I thought my '58 with 40 grns of BP was loud...even with my ears on.

[Wayner]

Like readin about a guy gettin a new gun. Tunin and slickin and such.Got a question for Steve499. Why do you want a gun with the chambers smaller than the grooves? Fouling and the subsequent shots thru the fouling? I wonder if Remington Kid has any problem with the heavy trigger/bolt spring of the Pietta and the soft cylinder metal and dangs and deformation from the bolt head hitting the cylinder notches. First thing I do before cycling the action of a Pietta is take it apart enough to loosen the trigger/bolt spring so as to adjust it lighter sos it won't make those dangs in the cylinder that look ugly and make the action rough as a cobblestone road. Second thing I do with any new cap&ball revolver is to take a small bright flashlight and look into the muzzle as I draw back the hammer and look for misalignment of the chambers to the bore(grooves in the barrel). The reflection of the light can show where the cylinder face is showing in the grooves and sometimes as high as the lands and beyond. Chamber alignment to the grooves of the barrel is a good indicator of how accurate the gun can be. Good alignment is good for accuracy.If the alignment is out some then that can be "adjusted". If the alignment of some chambers is good and others not then a new cylinder is needed. If the misalignment is too far off then it's too much trouble to fix and if the gun is new it should go back to the store. If the misalignment is just a little off then that can be adjusted.I don't read much about people checking the alignment of the chambers to the grooves of the barrel with new guns. I wonder why. Since the chambers are smaller than the groove dimension of the barrels on "most" cap&ball guns there will always be a little cylinder face reflecting in each groove in the barrel and it should be equal in each groove. Gotta look close. I just ordered a Pietta 1851 Colt Navy from Cabelas and sent it back. The alignment of the chambers to the barrel grooves was too far off to make it worth fixin on a new gun. The bolt head,even after being adjusted to strike the cylinder ramps as light as possible,danged the ramps right near the edge of the cylinder notches after only a few cycles and deformed metal into the notch sos the bolt didn't fully engage the notch to lock the cylinder into battery. Everything else on the gun was beautiful. Nice looking gun.I liked the way Pietta bottoms the arbor in the barrels arbor hole just right. The gun I got had bolt problems where it rides the cam on the hammer and I had to file a little to get the bolt to snap back onto the top of the cam sos the next chamber could be brought to the barrels breech. There were burrs here and there that I smoothed up and the action was smooth after that. The wedge was jammed in the gun like a hinge on a door to the vault at FT. Knox. I'm convinced that Pietta uses a slight bit of metal deformation to attain a good fit of the wedge in it's place in the barrel/arbor. Anyhow machining burrs in the arbor slot was one reason the wedge was so difficult to remove the first time. Smoothed them up too. What I didn't like was the fact that three Pietta cylinders(one in the gun,a spare that I ordered and one from my other new Pietta "51" Navy) were all out of alignment exactly the same amount with this gun. That tells me the cylinders are machined very close in tolerances and what I didn't like was that all three being out the same amount meant the frame window for the bolt head was off a good bit with this gun. Well I guess I'll wait a few weeks for the replacement to come back to me. Crap. See yas Buds.

[pohill]

Lots of good info there, Wayner. Cabelas should pay attention.

[Steve499]

Wayner, I wrote that wrong!! I was thinking to say the chambers were LARGER than the groove diameter on the pocket navy by Uberti but I said it backwards. I have a problem with buying a revolver which has the chamber diameter smaller than the groove diameter, seems to me that's the first step to accuracy that you can take before you buy if the dimensions are given. I know a lot of revolvers seem to shoot fine with the chamber diameter smaller than the grooves but I don't see how.

I always do the light down the barrel as the cylinder is turned to check for alignment. The Pietta 1858 Remington I have had one chamber that was off just the slightest amount. The Uberti pocket navy had all five chambers lined up perfectly. I had a Palmetto that was so mis-aligned I would have been afraid to shoot it! It went back.

Steve

[Remington kid]

Wayner, The remingtons have been my favorite for many years now and have never found any of the problems you mention above and I bought my Remingtons and my 51 Colt from Cabelas. I did have to smooth up the action on them and other things that I did to them was something I would have done to any reproduction guns. Chamfered the loading ramps on them as well as the cylinder mouths, chamfered the the outside edge of the nipples on all four cylinders and the extra 24 nipples I have.Lightened the trigger pull and the hammer springs so that they run super smooth. Dovetailed front sights.
As I said above , not all of this was something that had to be done , just wanted them to be to my personal liking. I have four cylinders that I can switch between the two Remingtons and they all line up perfectly
When I ordered my Remington's I also ordered two extra parts kits for both of them and have never had to replace a part and I shoot them constantly.

This new 51 that I bought from Cabelas could not be any nicer for fit and finish but I have reduced the trigger pull and hammer spring. The sight on this gun is point on and I wont have to change a thing. I was told that they raised there sights on the newer one's and this may be the case on this one. Acording to the letters on it , it was built in 2005.
So far I have only fired about 150 rounds from the Navy but have had zero problems with and I have relieved some of the metal on the frame by the hammer and a few other things and that really helped cure the cap in the works problem common with open tops. This by no means makes me think that I won't have problems down the line, anything is possiable.
A friend of mine has two Uberti Remingtons and has a lot of problems with one and no problem with the other. We still had to smooth up the action on both of them and the finish on them was no any better than my Pietta's. He paid way more than me for nothing.
When I'm are buying a reproduction revolver I don't expect it to have chrome blueing and the finish of a Weatherby but as you pointed out you want things to line up and work right and maybe I was just lucky with the Pietta's I bought from Cabelas but if that's the case, then so are many other guy's on this site and many others who are very happy with there Revolvers from Cabelas.

[mec]

I am pretty sure you new 51 has no alignment problems. That nice, round group you showed would do credit to a k-38. All of my present and recent Uberti .44s read .450" on the chamber mouths and land to land- could be off by .001 either way but the barrels and chambers are as close to that figure as I can measure.

I also got ideal measurments with two Pietta LeMats- though the dimensions were more like .447-448"
Also, all of the above have perfect alignment between barrel and individual chambers. I do have an unmarked Navy (no proofs, no maker, no nothing). the chambers are way out of line with the barrel but it will still group 3" or so at 50 feet.

[Remington kid]

Mec, Have you found that the Pyrodex will not tolerate any moister at all? The reason I ask is that I loaded my 51 last night with 25g Pyrodex "P" and then placed a dry wad over it with a little grease over the wad and then a 380 ball. Then I let it sit over night and planed to shoot it this morning.
Steped out on the back porch of my work shop and pulled the hammer and squeezed the trigger , just got a "POP". Sounded like a squib load but it did put a hole in the target so I tried the next one and got the same thing. On the last shot it was just a metalic "Pop" and then fire sizzled out between the barrel and the cylinder.
Took it back in the shop and tore it down. The barrel was full of half burnt powder in chunk form and a ball was stuck half way down the barrel. Got it cleaned up and there was no harm done at all.
The only thing I can figure is that the lube contaminated the powder through the felt wad after I compressed the ball and letting it sit all night. This is the way I have loaded many times useing Goex 3 F with no problems at all in my Remingtons even after sitting for several days.
Shot about 10 cylinders today from the 51 just to check it out and there was no problem at all when I loaded with the Pyro "P' ,wad, ball and grease over the ball.

[mec]

I haven't had that happen exactly. I have attempted drying out the chambers and loading them the night before i go shooting-no wad or compressed grease. They are more prone to hang fires when left loaded overnight with pyrodex than with goex and also for the first cylinderfull of the day. My theory is that there is some oil remaining in the works- maybe under the nipple threads, that gets into the powder. When I leave an already shot one loaded overnight, as I have done on weekend and camping trips, slow ignition doesn't seem to be a problem.

[Remington kid]

Thanks Mec, Thats a bummer for me. When I'm tracking bear in the early summer(spring) I have left my Remingtons loaded for several weeks with the Goex and never had a problem with it. Sure hope someone around here starts carrying the Goex again. Maybe I'll have to save up a couple of hundred dollars and head up to the log cabin shop in Lodi ,Ohio and stock up on Goex.

[Wayner]

MEC, when you said you had .450 champers and land to land + or- .001 or so I don't understand the logic. Isn't the chamber to "barrel grooves" dimension the comparison to make? I reamed most of my guns chambers to match the grooves in the barrels. I get good accuracy that way and more consistancy abeit a flyer now and then. An example....I shot at the mud above a stone on the other side of my pond and put the balls in the same hole that was about 3" across sos I figure the group about 2-3". The distance across the pond has to be at least 40-45 yards. I never stepped it off though. I tried once when I was drunk and only made it half way before I realized I can't walk on water and went in. ha ha Anywhooo, I may shoot at a sapling about 3" across and 35 yards away and plink it at least 4-6 times with a cylinder full. When I'm havin a good day. Ect. Ect. What I'm sayin is I think I get good accuracy with the chambers sized to match the grooves in the barrel. You seem to know what you're talking about with these guns so what's your take on my opinion about the chambers to grooves matching? I thought I read that you wrote a book? Got a copy for me? Anywhooo, I should learn to bench shoot instead of testing my guns one handed style sos I can keep a record. I may shoot leaves in the mud at the back of the pond at 35 paces with my Uberti 1860 Army and 25gr. FFg 777 pretty consistantly but it's hard to save leaves with holes in them. ha ha When I size chambers to match barrel grooves the gun seems to shoot everything from FFg Qoex to Pyrodex pistol to 777 powders all with good accuracy. I got the idea from shooting cast lead bullets and cartridges and learning that the bullet being right at groove diameter or .001-.002 over groove diameter works well. I stuck the cylinder from my Pietta "Shooters" model in my standard model Pietta Remington and was a little amazed that day at how accurate it was. More pressure to the sound of it but.... accurate. Seemed like I hit everything that day. The chambers of the "Shooters" cylinder are .455 and the barrel grooves of my standard Remington Pietta are .452. That's .003 chambers over the grooves. Anywhooo, a well centered chucking reamer, four flute,straight flute can do a really good job reaming chambers. I should mention that reaming the chambers only as far down as the ball will ever seat is a good idea I guess especially with the 1860 Colt Army and the rebated cylinder.You know, all the known to be accurate cap&ball revolvers like the Pedersoli's and the Rugers and the Uberti 1862 Pocket Police and Pocket Navy and the Pietta "Shooters Remington and the "Wayners" (ha ha ha ) have about equal chambers to barrel grooves dimensions. The Pedersoli Rodgers and Spencer has .450 chambers and .451 barrel grooves and the Pedersoli Remington has .453 chambers and .451 barrel grooves. The Ruger Old Army has chambers .002-.003 over barrel groove diameter and the Pietta "shooters" Remington has equal chambers and barrel grooves at .456. The Pietta "distressed finish" Remington, 1860 Army and 1851 44cal. have equal chambers and barrel grooves. I'd like somebody in Italy to tell me why so many of the other cap&ballers have undersized chambers. Anywhoo, I'm glad Remington Kids guns from Cabelas turn out to be good ones. I guess I'm not lucky. I've had to get down and dirt rollin and scrapin and scratchin every inch of the way the last 55 years for just about everything. ha ha ha ha

[mec]

I meant to say groove to groove

[Old Dragoon]

WayneR,
I think MEC was saying the same thing you just said.
I think it all depends on the final dia of the forcing cone...IF the Chamber Dia and the Groove Dia are Equal or for sure if the chamber dia is larger. I want my chambers to be at least equal to the groove Dia.orin the case of the "Shooter" cylinder, larger. Hence your .454 dia cylinder shooting so good in the .451-452 grooves Pietta. Your forcing cone sized the .454 ball to it's dia. When you look at the point the grooves flow into the forcing cone, that dia should be the same. That is what determines the final dia of the projectile and that is the point of expansion, that if it is the same dia., expansion should continue for a ways down the bore. That is what determines the expansion of the projectile to allow it to fill the grooves.

Now if the chamber Dia is amaller than the grooves, likely it is smaller than the forcing cone. then all you can depend on is projectile expansion(Obsturate? (sic) and that just doesn't cut it.

Luckily, when I measured all my cylinder bores they were .451-.452, and when I mesured the grooves they were also .451-.452, as close as I can measure with my Dial Calipers both inside at the forcing cone/groove juncture, and by measuring a bullet slugged in the bores(one each) the Gunfighter 4 3/4" bbl (now) is different in the fact that that lands are shallower (bigger bore) by a gnats whisker.

[Wayner]

Mec, you have a book you wrote? I want one of them to read. ha ha How about it? Old Dragoon, were your chambers equal to the barrels grooves out of the box or did you ream them? I was wondering if Alesandro Pietta finally, after some prodding, finally started putting the guns out with equal grooves and chambers.Uberti doesn't as far as I've seen in the past. Uberti has always had a bigger gap between chambers and barrel grooves. My 1851 Colt Navy Uberti had chambers at .372 and barrel rooves at .385! That's .013! I reamed the chambers about halfway down to .385 so now I use a .390 ball. My Walker has grooves in the barrel at .464 sos I reamed the chambers part way down to .464 and use a .472 ball. I've clipped ground hogs out at the 100 yard mark and beyond with that big boy. Of course it takes luck too and good eyes. Now adays my eyes are weak sos I don't shoot the way I did years ago. I always shoot one handed though and have for years. It feels funny to shoot two handed and I can't do it well anymore really. ha ha ha

[Old Dragoon]

All three of my '58 Piettas were new in the box and unfired, two had not even been turned one was dry fired quite a bit as the hammer was deformed, nipples were ok.
No reaming. All I did was check them out with the dial calipers. I have since recrowned the muzzles and polished the forcing cones. I did shoot lap each one two shots and lapped them lightly to get rid of any snags. One is a 2000, one a 2002 and the Gunfighter 4 3/4 is a 2005. This is the one that had the indentations in the bore at the frontsight and rammer latch locations that caused me to cut her down. This pistol is the one also that has the shallower rifling(bigger dia bore(lands). I consider this one the latter of the three as of now. I will finish the rammer/catch this evening and refinish tomorrow night.I hope to shoot this one Sat Morning and I'll let you know how she shoots after all the work.

[mec]

Book is Percussion Pistols and Revolvers at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com. For pretty pictures and low price, get the e-book. The pictures are in color and you can zoom them up. In print, they are black and white and a bit utilitarian.

My Ubertis are all recent and all have the above mentioned measurements. The walker has kind of a long free-bored forcing cone. This is a 50 yard group shot while chronographing. I was resting the gun over my knees. The bullet is the original type picket bullet


I seldom shoot bench groups- except when trying to learn something about the relative accuracy of various bullets or such. When I do shoot them they tend to announce that the chamber-bore dimensions are in good relationship.
A group I shot right after this one with .451 Ball was even better:

It is no great accomplishment bench shoot a group like this at 50 feet but it does tend to indicate that the gun is accurate.
I believe this would have been a real good bench group. but I shot it standing up. As I recall it was the first cylinderfull out of this uberti dragoon. I suspect the two fliers would have retracted into the group from a steady rest.

On the whole, I can do a little better with an 8 3/8" 29 but it's close enough for what I want to do with these smoke wagons

[Wayner]

Well,I guess it's good you guys don't have to ream any chambers. My guns were wanting in the accuracy dept. where consistancy is concerned. The fouling problems shooting subsequent shots thru a blackpowder fouled bore was addressed by the use of lube pills under the ball or wool wads saturated in more lube mixed with beeswax to make the lube more of a solid than a paste. The inconsistancy was what bothered me. I could shoot some good targets but the good ones were not indicative to what the guns were really doing. I figured the looseness of the balls swagged by an undersized chamber left space in each groove for gas to squirt thru and cause the guns to shoot kind of the way one shoots when it has a worn crown. Obsturation didn't seem to be happening consistanly. I reamed chambers to match the grooves in the barrels and the inconsistancy seemed to be eliminated abeit not totally. I wouldn't make up stories and say I never get flyers you know. Anywhooo, I've noticed a big improvement in the consistancy of the guns accuracy after the reaming of the chambers to match the grooves of the barrel. I figure the balls are obsturated more consistanly with the resistance the ball gives the powder blast when the ball hits the rifling and fully engages it. I measured the three new Pietta Remington cylinders I have and one went .444-445 in the chambers the other went .445-447 and the other .445-.446. The barrels are real close to .452. The Dixie catalog list the specs. for Pietta Rems at .446 chambers and .451 barrel grooves. Dixie catalog lists the 1860 Colt Army Uberti at .449 chambers and .452 barrel grooves. The guns don't always come the way the specs. are listed with the Piettas being the most consistant with the sizing of the chambers and barrels. I have two 1860 Armies by Uberti and they are fine guns but the barrels are .453 and .455 with them and the chambers were anywhere from .447 to .450 in each cylinder with the chambers all a little different than the others.Reaming the chambers to be at least what the largest chamber is at,say, .450 couldn't hurt consistancy. I first used a tool from Brownells with pilots to make the forcing cones and the muzzles crowns smooth and concentric with the axis of the barrels bore but the inconsistancy with accuracy was still there even with cleaning the fouling in the barrels every shot. When I finally reamed the chambers to match the barrels grooves the inconsistancy finally abated a good bit. When I hit upon the idea to use a shim on the top end of the arbor where it is seated in the barrels arbor hole in the barrel (Colts)the accuracy seemed to be "right there". The barrels could not move at all with the force of the powder blast and the lead ball. I like the way Pietta bottoms the arbor in the arbor holes of the barrels with Colt clones and seem to have a tighter fit of the arbor in that hole diameter wise. Wish Uberti did that. Anywhooo, that is one little story in Wayners world with shooting cap&ballers. ha ha ha

[mec]

Bates has an armi san marco dragoon with three different chamber mouth measurements. He reamed them out to consistent diameters and the gun started to shoot very good groups.

He also has an old brass frame from either Pietta or Uberti ( Uberti no longer uses brass. This one has the same thing- at least three distinctly different chamber mouths. It would seem easier to get them all the same size than to screw them up in this manner. It made me think maybe they finish the chambers all at once with a six-reamer head on a friction clutch.

[Wayner]

I don't know what a six reamer friction clutch is anywhooo. ha ha I do know that from what I see with Pietta guns is that the cylinders are close tolerance from chambers to chamber and the cylinders are seemingly all real close compared to one another. I like that. Getting a spare cylinder isn't so much of a "send it back several times until finding one that works" thing with the Pietta's. I'm a Uberti man myself but the improvements Pietta has been making with the new machines I guess they got is turning me into a Pietta man. Anywhooo, Pietta chambers are closer to the size of the barrels grooves than Uberti sems to come in the box. Some Piettas like the "shooters Remington and the "antiqued finish" Colts and Remingtons have chambers equal to the barrels grooves. Why Pietta does that with some guns and not others is beyond me. Of course a lot of things are beyond me. When is Beretta going to do more improving with the Uberti cap&ballers???? Heeelllooooow Beretta! Can you hear me?

[mec]

I don't know about that last. It may be they have heard you in reverse. I saw a new Uberti Navy the other day. They have run out of the cherry tinted log they have been using for grips the last couple of years and now have another flavor. The wood looked good but there was an unsightly gap where wood meets frame.

[Remington kid]

Here is what I get from my Pietta Navy .36 1851. Barrel is .360, chambers are .366 and very consistent. The balls I have been useing are .380 and they leave a perfect ring on lead from all 12 chambers (2 Cylinders) when compressed with the loading lever.
The .380 barrel sluged ball you see is elongated as it should be and I have no problems with the accuracy of this Revolver.I must admit that I was a little taken back when I saw just how close all the chambers are.
The .375 balls would probably been fine in this Revolver also but the .380 works great so why fix it if it aint broke
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[mec]

Perfect. the smaller Pietta chambers should work very well with .375 balls.

[Remington kid]

Mec, The problem is that I listened to everyone else and they all said I would want to shoot the .380 ball and that the .375 would be to small . I ordered the .380 Lee double cavity mold and that's what I've been useing. Already casted several hundred They shoot good and no problem to load so I guess I'll stick with them.