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Old May 20, 2007, 03:52 PM   #1
douglasschuckert
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Nfa & H.r. 1022

How do people forsee the pending H.R. 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) affecting the NFA community? Mags and accessories will become EXCEPTIONALLY expensive, but what else can people see happen if it does become law?

Do you think we'll loose all the items we currently have, or do you think there will be a grandfather clause allowing us to keep what we already have?
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http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!
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Old May 20, 2007, 05:02 PM   #2
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I would think that it would read something like the Illinois ban. Those who have them can keep them, but if you want to sell yours, then it has to be to a dealer or to someone who already has one in the first place, or out of state. Once out, never back in. I really don't forsee 1022 coming to fruition. I don't doubt it could happen in the future, but I don't think it has a chance right now. The verbage in that piece of legislation is over-broad and I don't believe it has many true supporters.
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Old May 20, 2007, 06:19 PM   #3
douglasschuckert
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I agree with you there, but what consernes the crap out of me, is the democratic legislators and the anti-gun republicans either in office, or about to enter office....


What we've got right now, is a Demacratic majority Congress. Now next January we'll have a President that is anti-gun too. Looking at all the potential candidates, Juliani, Clinton, Obama all have strong anti-gun stances. It would seem to me that right now is a great time to push a piece of crap legislation through.

If we get a POTUS thats anti-gun like Clinton, AND a majority anti-gun congress.... we're screwed. Reguardless of how unconstitutional the law is, the FFL's are done. The SOT's are now non-existant (except for the big ones that have lots of police/military contracts), and we'll be telling our great grand kids of the joys we had shooting pre-ban weapons... As this ban doesn't have a sunset.

This bill is dangerous! Exceptionally so. We cannot sit by doing nothing while this thing gains more and more speed.

We should all be very conserned! We stand to loose ALL of our firearm freedoms.. unless you want a single shot derringer or can have fun with a sling-shot?

How about accessories? You can kiss private ownership of weapon mounted lights (as the weapons to mount them on are now banned), extended mags... (being this law says that all mags over 10 rounds are illegal, reguardless of date of manufacture). ANY firearm that can either have, or be adapted to have a forward ability for a grip, or a weapon that is capable of having a rear grip... even thumb-hole stocks are out.... Say goodbuy to the AR series/AK's/SAS's/H&K's/most shotguns/pistols with light rails/any rifle capable of accepting a mag (as this is labled as being a forward grip according to the law)... etc.. the list goes on and on and on...

This doesn't specify NFA, but it could be rolled into it as well. Now people have to destroy or sell to an SOT their transferables. NO SOT is going to give these people 10k for a banned MP5 that they cant re-sell.... People would be lucky to get 2k for their 18k+ SMG. Then what are the SOT's going to do with them? Sell them to LE Units? Yea right... many of the transferable MP5's out there now were prior LE trade ins...

This really sucks.....
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Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)!
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!
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Old May 20, 2007, 06:39 PM   #4
shaggy
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It would seem to me that right now is a great time to push a piece of crap legislation through.
This was beaten to death in L&P a few weeks ago, but right now is exactly the wrong time for the dems to push any antigun legislation. Do you remember what happened all through 1994? I do. For months the dems tried to push the AWB through Congress to no avail - thanks to the efforts of the NRA and to a lesser degree the CBC. It was only after the dems finally whipped the CBC back into line that the bill narrowly passed. Two months later the NRA and gun owners across this country unleashed a political bloodbath on the democrats that took them twelve years - until 2006 - to recover from.

The dems are anything but stupid; do you think they're going to put that barrel in their mouth and pull the trigger again? They learned their lesson from 1994, and now, in 2007, although they control both the house and the senate, there's more blue dogs among the dems than ever before. Why do you think Nancy Pelosi has declared the gun issue basically off limits? Just a few weeks after the most deadly shooting in US history gun control is still not a hot issue in Congress. In case you haven't figured it out, allow me to clue you in. The dems want the house, the senate, and the presidency. Pushing gun control legislation now would be political suicide and counterproductive to that ultimate goal. If, however, they win the house, senate, and the presidency in '08, all bets are off in '09.
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Old May 21, 2007, 12:12 PM   #5
douglasschuckert
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Shaggy....

Ok. Are we completely forgetting the little unknown trick of 'misdirection'? Its pretty friggin obvious whats going on. The bill is on the various dockets now. Its very smart for them to NOT make a big deal out of it now. Push it as far as it will go without making waves, and hold it there. Make no mistake. Its got a LOT more steam than people realize.

The NRA didn't do a lot of damage to the Dems back in 1994. They fought like hell to stop the first AWB and it still passed. If anything the Dems did damage to the NRA. Its off of that fight that the NRA began to get the rep of a bunch of redneck, gun-toten, ignorant, close-minded people.

The NRA is nothing more than a pest to the gun haters. They have passed anti-gun legislation in the past with the NRA holding their butts screaming NOOOOO!!!!!!!

The NRA has done a fantastic job of keeping the legislation from going to far, but when the house/senate is primarily anit-guners and the president is anti-gun... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happens next. (In 2008 its more-than-likely going to be this way)

With all the attention on the GWOT and Iraq, Its not hard to realize that it would be easy to push something like this AWB thought most of the various hoops quietly now, so when the new Pres is in office, they can launch a massive offensive and hopefully blind-side everyone.

Its the Art of War. Get as far as you can maintaining cover and hold for the 'go'. They are getting as much preliminary stuff out of the way as they can now, going for all that they can, and when the serious opposition begins, they will taper off. They will make a few concessions in the terms of the bill and then when the time is right, go balls out with it.. The longer they can keep this quiet the better for them. We need to blow it out of the water as soon as we can! AS IN NOW!!!!!!!!


This bill is beginning like every other bill out there does. They go for all they can, and through negotiations and heated arguments they 'conseed' on certain extremities (that were factored into the bill as canon-fodder in the first place) so it gives the appearance of a victory to the opposition. This is EXACTLY what happened to the first AWB. Its going to happen again. Its just this time around the have a great deal of trial and error to get this one right.

Dont think that this isn't going to pass. It's going to. Unless the NRA can make a huge deal of it, and put an extremely negative spin on the damn thing; next year this bill is going to bite all us gun-toting weird-o's into a world-o-hurt.

This isn't going to be like the 1st AWB where you could still get your AR's and stuff like that... it's going to be hard-core and more than likely its going to be perm-time.... no sunset clause.

You're going to see small time FFL's dropping off the map like flies (worse than what happened in '94), SOT's are going to go out of business, the big players are going to loose a lot of revenue.

Dont be stupid and think that we have time... we dont. We need to begin to fight this ASAP! Its our duty to put a negative spin on this thing LONG before it gets some serious face time.

You are right.... it cant pass without making a lot of waves, but the longer we wait the more it progresses. If we broadcast to the world how pointless this bill really is and get the nations populace on board with our way of seeing things, then the NRA will have a LOT easier time fighting things when the time comes, and they can win an even greater victory and force the dems to concede on even more issues than if we do nothing.

Dont be stupid or naive by thinking that this isn't going to be serious or make ONE HELL OF AN IMPACT TO OUR FREEDOMS! A lot of the people didn't think it would be a big deal and didn't make a lot of effort to stop it.... well it screwed a LOT of people out of their livelihoods!

This bill is going to get passed! Make no mistake about that. The NRA isn't going to be able to stop it completely. Its going to come down to an argument of concessions. They give here, we give there.... Thats what happened with the first AWB, and its going to happen again....

If we make a HUGE stink about things now... DO OUR PARTS AND WRITE YOUR REPS, the editors of local papers, online internet forums... ANYTHING WE CAN TO DEFLATE THE BILL AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE BEFORE IT REACHES THE NEGOTIATION TABLES, the ant-guners will loose far greater than if we do nothing!

THEY HAVE DESIGNED THE BILL, IN ITS CURRENT FORM, ON PURPOSE!

They will make a special point to make the SMALL issues (to them) seem like the big ones, and argue them with fervor, then when they loose those points (which is what they plan on anyway) it seems like a good 'win' for the NRA/gun people, when in all actuality it was not an issue that was a big deal in the first place... This way they get to have their cake and eat it too all the while making it seem like the NRA got their 'win', and a 'happy medium was reached'.

Its common politics. It happens on EVERY BILL EVER PASSED!

If you read the terms of the currently proposed bill, an idiot can see that it's written in such a way that they can 'concede' on issues and give the appearance of a victory to the opposition. Its also not real hard to see that that are trying to push as much of the current bill up the food chains as they can, as quietly as they can, so when the time comes, they can let the tiger loose and have much more fodder to 'negotiate' with...

It’s completely stupid to think otherwise.

I actually work within the government and have done so for the past 8 years. Before you think I’m stupid, or don’t know what is going on, actually think about things and you will see that Im not too far off kilter.

Warfare is more psychology than fighting. Its not so much ‘out fighting’ the enemy as it is ‘out thinking’ them. – Politics is warfare! Don’t think for one bloody second that they are not moving on this bill, right now….. don’t think that they have not designed it without pre-designed concessions, and DON’T think that they haven’t learned some very valuable lessons during the first AWB, that they are not applying here. If we sit on our hands, this bill is going to overnight EXPLODE onto the scene and we’re going to be standing by sucking our thumbs wondering what the hell is going on.

2008 is RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER!!!
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Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)!
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!
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Old May 21, 2007, 03:06 PM   #6
Csspecs
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Quote:
This bill is going to get passed! Make no mistake about that. The NRA isn't going to be able to stop it completely. Its going to come down to an argument of concessions. They give here, we give there.... Thats what happened with the first AWB, and its going to happen again....
You do understand that this bill has been purposed since around 2000, it never goes anywhere. If you look up the person that wrote it you will see the same thing year after year. Only thing that has changed is the people in charge, that is what has everyone worried.
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Old May 21, 2007, 08:15 PM   #7
James K
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One thing that can be done is to work at your local level to defeat anti-gun congressional candidates. In some districts, that will be impossible, either because the candidates are solidly pro-gun or solidly anti-gun, but there are plenty of swing districts where a few hundred votes makes the difference between a good Representative and a rabid anti-gunner. Do not assume that a Republican will be on our side; Guiliani and Bloomberg are both Republicans (at least in name) and both want to ban guns.

So contribute to, and support with signs and bumper stickers, a pro-gun candidate. Work for that person; man the phone banks, write letters to the editor, and all the rest of a political campaign.

What will not help is sitting on your fanny denouncing the NRA (and of course not contributing) and blaming someone else for the problem.

And don't forget the state races, where even smaller margins sometimes count. It won't make much difference to you whether it is the Feds or the state police who smash down your door, confiscate your guns and drag you off to prison.

Jim
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Old May 22, 2007, 07:34 AM   #8
mxwelch
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The NRA didn't do a lot of damage to the Dems back in 1994.
You do remember that the Dems lost control of Congress for the first time in decades and Clinton in his SOTU address claimed it was because of the AWB. Damage enough...
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Old May 22, 2007, 09:47 AM   #9
douglasschuckert
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Awb???

Well you are right, and Im not slamming the NRA. They are our biggest friend in this fight. If it were not for them, we'd have full-auto, hotpink, capguns that look like something out of 'war of the worlds' right now instead

The fact this bill has been around since 2000 should speak a lot to what is in the works. The fact they are appearing to kick a dead horse.... That horse aint dead... its just hightly drugged :-)

Jim: Its pretty sad when there isn't one candidate (that appears to stand a real chance of making it) that is pro-gun... at least a little bit... BTW: I have by no means denounced the NRA, and guess what??? I do contribute.

What I'm trying to do here is bring people out to at minimum write a letter to their reps & the white house.
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Write your representative and say no to HR 1022!!! (Yet another $%$(&^-up law)!
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Fe...d.aspx?id=2668 - HR 1022 Assault Weapons Ban & Law Enforcement Protection Act (2007) http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/409898348 - Online Petition against! DO YOUR PART, WRITE YOUR DAMN REP, and DEMAND VETO!
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Old May 22, 2007, 11:50 AM   #10
shaggy
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The NRA didn't do a lot of damage to the Dems back in 1994.
Sure...tell that to Marjorie Mezvinsky (sp?). She was an up and coming darling of the democrat party who cast one of the final votes in Congress for the 1994 AWB. She was kicked out of office by the voters of Pennsylvania two months later for her vote. Tell it to Bill Clinton, who has publicly blamed the 1994 republican turnover of Congress on the NRA and the backlash from the 1994 AWB vote. Tell it to Tom Foley - the democratic speaker of the house at the time who not only lost his job as speaker of the house, but lost his seat in congress in that same election.

Quote:
They have passed anti-gun legislation in the past with the NRA holding their butts screaming NOOOOO!!!!!!!
See my answer above. The NRA can't physically restrain a member of Congress from voting against the interests of gun owners. All they can do is promise retaliation at the ballot box for legislators who cross them. Thats exactly what happened in November of 1994, and the dems know there's a very high risk of repeating that in 2008 if they try it again. 1994 was a test of the strength for the NRA and the NRA showed it was still a force to be reckoned with on the Hill.

Quote:
but when the house/senate is primarily anit-guners and the president is anti-gun... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what happens next. (In 2008 its more-than-likely going to be this way)
Thanks for reiterating my earlier point for me. Let me say it again; nothing will happen with HR1022 because the dems want to own the house, senate and the presidency in 2009. Pushing gun control legislation now will more than likely only derail that goal. If they take the house, senate and the presidency in the '08 elections, obviously all bets are off. Regardless, what is the point of gearing up and getting hysterical over a bill with little to no chance of success? If you take an honest look at the political environment now, it looks more like HR1022 was introduced for the purpose of political posturing more than a true attempt to legislate. If you're talking about a bill which may be introduced in '09 its sort of pointless as that bill hasn't even been introduced yet and we don't know what the political landscape will look like at that time and who may be in office.

Quote:
next year this bill is going to bite all us gun-toting weird-o's into a world-o-hurt
Not likely. Few in Congress are in a position to push too hard on such a politically risky issue in an election year; at least not one which has proven in the recent past it can motivate huge voter retaliation at the ballot box.

In 1994 the dems got burned badly for doing just that and they won't likely make that same mistake again. We may not like Pelosi, but don't underestimate her intelligence or political savvy. If they pass another AWB it will only be at the very beginning of a new term - thus allowing plenty of time for angry voters to cool down and forget before the next election cycle begins. They won't do it walking into an important election cycle - it would be political suicide for many members and they know it all too well from past experience. Additionally, keep in mind GWB has no reason not to veto it and the dems know that even if they had the votes to pass such a bill in the first place, they sure a heck don't have the votes to override a veto. IOW, there's no reason for them to push it now and burn political capital with almost no possible outcome but to inflame a highly cohesive and effective voting block at the outset of an election cycle. It would be a very stupid move and you don't need to be Karl Rove to figure that out.

Quote:
I actually work within the government and have done so for the past 8 years. Before you think I’m stupid, or don’t know what is going on, actually think about things and you will see that Im not too far off kilter.
And what exactly do you do for the government? Doug, I don't think you're stupid, but I think you probably read the hysterical letters from the NRA too much without applying much in the way of your own meaningful analysis of the political situation. Don't get me wrong, I like the NRA and I'm a member. I donate and I think they do a pretty good job for gun owners. But any wacko in Congress can propose any kind of crazy hairbrained legislation they want and HR1022 is a perfect example. Just because legislation has been intruduced doesn't mean it has any real chance of success so you have to learn to focus your efforts on what is a real threat and not waste time and energy on what is done more for the photo op and public relations. Let me be clear, 1022 is there mostly for posturing purposes so people like Carolyn McCarthy can go to her constituents and say "Look! I did something - I sponsored a bill." I would hazzard a guess that even McCarthy knows her bill is a dead issue. She may truly want it passed, but Nancy Pelosi will probably keep it bottled up in committee as she knows there's far greater issues at risk...like winning the '08 elections. Moreover, many of the newly elected democrats are blue dogs and less beholden to the usual democrat anti-gun party line than we've seen in the past.

Here's a good example for you; do you remember Senator Daniel Patrick Moniyhan? Every session he introduced a bill in the senate that would have imposed a 1000% federal excise tax on handgun ammo. I'm sure Moniyhan knew it had no chance of going anywhere and few supporters but he put the bill on the table every session just to make a point - it was more of a symbolic act than a real attempt at legislation. Of course, the NRA would capitalize on Moniyhan's gesture for their own PR purposes in their solicitations for donations.

Quote:
With all the attention on the GWOT and Iraq, Its not hard to realize that it would be easy to push something like this AWB thought most of the various hoops quietly now, so when the new Pres is in office, they can launch a massive offensive and hopefully blind-side everyone.
Do you understand that a bill is only good for that session of congress? If not passed, it has to be re-introduced the next time around, and start all over again in committee from square one? Its not as if they can quietly vote on it, and hold off on sending it to the president until after the inaguration. Perhaps I missed your point though; what "hoops" do you think they can push it through to give a new president any advantage?

If you analyze the political situation with calculating logic instead of just letting your emotions run wild, you'd see that absent some unforseen turn of events (and even VT didn't seem to be enough) HR1022 has little chance of passage right now. The closer we get to the '08 elections, the less likely the dems are to press a political hot button that carries a very high risk of derailing their plans for '08/'09. Again, all bets are off after the '08 elections.

Now please understand, I'm not saying we shouldn't join the NRA and write our legislators; we should. I'm not saying we can afford to get comfortable and ignore proposed legislation; we can't. But before getting all worked up it helps to look at the issue logically so you can understand how real a threat it poses. There is ALWAYS an antigun bill of some sort being kicked around in Congress. Always. If you never learn to separate what has a real chance of passing (and why) versus what is more for the sake of political posturing you'll go crazy chasing your tail, needlessly wasting time and effort.
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