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Old February 15, 2020, 01:18 PM   #1
Jeryray
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45 load spiting

I just changed my load used in my sig P220 from 4.6BE 200G berrys to 4.2BE 200g Berrys.

I took the factory spring out and used a Wolf 15lb spring. )the factory spring would cause a smoke stack sometimes.

Groups were fine, no jams.

However I feel something spitting and felt something hit me twice. Might have been a flash, nothing hard.

What could cause this?

I went to the lighter load for less recoil and better accuracy (which worked)

TIA
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Old February 15, 2020, 02:36 PM   #2
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"...factory spring would cause a smoke stack..." That's rarely caused by the spring. It's usually the load. Wolff says the current factory recoil spring is green and is 20 pounds. The old SIG factory spring is black and is 15 pounds.
Is 'BE' Bullseye? 4.6 is Bullseye is the MAX load for a cast 200. 4.2 is a tick over minimum. Did you work up the load or just pick one?
"...something hit me..." Where? Spitting from were?
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Old February 15, 2020, 02:41 PM   #3
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Too light of a load can spit burned powder out the ejection port if the pressure isn't enough to seal the brass into the chamber....does the brass look sootier than usual?
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Old February 15, 2020, 03:49 PM   #4
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It's more the hot unburned powder, but the principle is right. If the pressure is too low to seal the chamber with the case "stuff" will come out.
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Old February 15, 2020, 04:13 PM   #5
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About 2 years ago I had worked this load.
Tried 4.0 that was too light.

Original spring was Orange

I won't be able to examine my brass until late tonight.
I can feel the difference between 4.2 and 4.6

This sig is 2 years old, supermatch. Now using a stock P220 slide with red dot installed.
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Old February 15, 2020, 07:37 PM   #6
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I have a light 45 Automatic load that has been doing the same thing lately. I worked it up back in the summer, and in the lower winter temps it seems too light. Getting occasional FTEs along with a bit of blowback in the face. I think I need a bit more powder in the colder temps to cycle reliably and seal the chamber better.
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Old February 15, 2020, 10:24 PM   #7
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OK, looking at my Nickel shells, they definatley show a dark area where the powder is getting by.

So for sure I guess I need more of a load.
I am t 4.2, maybe 4.4 next??
I know 4.6 works but seems at max specs.
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Old February 15, 2020, 11:16 PM   #8
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I had the same issue last fall with my 45 loads. What was hitting me was hot and sandy...obviously powder blow back. As you, I’d intentionally loaded softer loads...not for me, but for my wife to try., but I tested them first. Well honestly, my wife is never going to shoot my 45s. I was never so happy to have proper eye protection. I shot the rest wearing a cleaning rag covering my face...not a good look.

Time to abandon soft loads and get back to proper powered loads.
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Old February 16, 2020, 10:11 AM   #9
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***************************************************************
T OHeir says...Is 'BE' Bullseye? 4.6 is Bullseye is the MAX load for a cast 200. 4.2 is a tick over minimum.
***************************************************************
I see a max of 5.7 Bullseye in a current Hornady manual and 5.6 to 6.0 depending on bullet style in Lyman Manual.

4.0 will give a little above 700 fps for a 200 swc in a 5" gun. This will not usually function in a standard 5" 45.

4.6 should not exceed 800 fps
Lyman shows 4.9 grains for 840 fps for one type of 200 grain bullet as a starting load.
3.5 bullseye as a starting load for 645 fps with their cast 200 SWC.

230 @ 850 = a Power Factor of 195.
200 @ 750 = 150 PF.

I shoot from 3.5 to 4.0 of Bullseye using 200 SWC by the thousand. I do not get sprayed in the face with powder. It does burn dirty below 4.0 grains. I do use a heavy crimp (.463") to help with combustion. Cases are sooty.

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Old February 16, 2020, 01:09 PM   #10
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OK after further testing I found only 1 out of 10 may spit. The case is a little dirtier.

So I was going to go to 4.3 an see what happens.

So is it possible Crimp could have a bearing on this?

Tried two different slides/barrels on my P220. Same results.

4.6 does not see to have those issues.
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Old February 16, 2020, 01:44 PM   #11
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Played bullets are funny. They say make a bullet and pull it. If the copper playing is cut through, then you have too much crimp.

David


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Old February 16, 2020, 01:52 PM   #12
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"...in a current Hornady manual..." Alliant's site says 4.6 for a cast 200. And 5.8 for a jacketed 200. https://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...1&cartridge=35
Berry's being plated. Plated bullets are not jacketed and don't use jacketed data.
No mention of orange on Wolff's site. Mind you, they don't make Sig pistols.
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Old February 16, 2020, 07:37 PM   #13
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All the data I looked up is for cast bullets. If I can post a picture of the page I will.
Is this allowed?

Bullet 452460 cast of #2 alloy, 5.6 grains Bullseye 869 fps, 15,700 CUP.
Bullet 452630 cast of #2 alloy, 6.0 grains Bullseye 909 fps. 17,000 CUP.
Lyman #50 page # 444

Hornady 9th edition Page 852
200 swaged Lead Round nose 5.7 Bullseye 950 fps.

Both books are the latest edition.

I agree that is what it says on Alliant website.

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Old February 16, 2020, 08:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir
Berry's being plated. Plated bullets are not jacketed and don't use jacketed data.
Berry's do not agree with you. From their web site:

https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-rn

Quote:
  • Load data for our Superior Plated Bullets® can be found in any manual or on any powder manufacturer’s website.
  • Cast or jacketed data with the same grain weight and profile will work with our bullets.
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Old February 16, 2020, 09:18 PM   #15
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Alliant Current Data Links (haven't changed since at least 1992)

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...1&cartridge=35
http://www.alliantpowder.com/resourc...inglePages.pdf

For 200 grain Speer GD JHP (which are plated construction) Bullseye Max is 5.8. We are talking about 934 fps, so you are no where near max speed for Berrys.

I do not load auto pistols so low as to not cycle reliably with a factory spring. I personally think that is a big No-No. IMO, (except for specialized rifle reloading) any round you load should be able to function reliably in ANY stock pistol. This is especially true if you must periodically requalify and grab whatever loads are most handy in a pinch. I had to switch pistols with a range gun once when my site came off. Auto pistol ammo by nature should adhere to uniform operating parameters.
45 ACP is not a high pressure round. In fact it is rather low, at 16K to 20K depending on units of measure.

From Berrys ( https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-45-452-200gr-fp ):
"Cartridge Name: 45 ACP
Cartridge O.A.L.: 1.205"
Max Velocity: 1250 fps

Load data for our Superior Plated Bullets® can be found in any manual or on any powder manufacturer’s website.
Cast or jacketed data with the same grain weight and profile will work with our bullets."
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Old February 16, 2020, 09:42 PM   #16
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OK, good information.

I have pulled the 200g head, I use a Dillon taper crimp. I only see a mark where it crimps. No big compression or lead showing.
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Old February 16, 2020, 10:36 PM   #17
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Peak pressure and not velocity is what matters to the integrity of the bullet. The mild loads, like 4.6 grains of Bullseye, are maximums for the target velocity range with the softest swaged lead bullets, above which accuracy may be adversely affected by distortion of the base by higher peak pressure or by an excessive propensity to leading in a typical mass-produced bore. So exceeding these mild maximums should be accompanied by keeping an eye out for the aforementioned problems. But it's not a maximum based on concern about excess pressure.
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Old February 16, 2020, 11:18 PM   #18
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That is insight for lead target bullets, Unklenick.
In this particular thread, OP is asking about Berrys plated bullets. Would the plating prevent the leading issues?

Another thing: Sierra 45 ACP page says " Since it does headspace on the case mouth, we recommend nothing more than a slight taper crimp."

I would go further, and ask: Why do you need to crimp at all?
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Old February 16, 2020, 11:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Califo
I would go further, and ask: Why do you need to crimp at all?
Crimping is to remove the flare that you put in after resizing, to ensure that the base of the bullet can start into the case mouth square (and without shaving lead, if you're not loading plated or jacketed bullets).
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Old February 16, 2020, 11:38 PM   #20
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Thank you for confirming that there is no reason to crimp plated bullets for cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.
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Old February 17, 2020, 06:32 AM   #21
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Crimping helps with combustion on light target loads.

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Old February 17, 2020, 10:08 AM   #22
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OP mentions nickel cases in post #7. I have no experience loading nickel plated brass and have only seen it used commercially in self defense ammo, but his problem with blowback makes me wonder... nickel being a harder metal than brass, does nickel plated brass seal the chamber as well as plain brass at less then max loads?
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Old February 17, 2020, 03:07 PM   #23
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IMO Light target loads (that will not cycle a factory spring) are the beginning and end to the problem. Fix that and forget crimping plated bullets.
Blue Dot would require some taper crimp. Very little. BE does not need crimp. It is a fast powder. Just try a little more of it.
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Last edited by Marco Califo; February 17, 2020 at 05:15 PM. Reason: BE is fast
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Old February 17, 2020, 06:47 PM   #24
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Quote:
OP mentions nickel cases in post #7. I have no experience loading nickel plated brass and have only seen it used commercially in self defense ammo, but his problem with blowback makes me wonder... nickel being a harder metal than brass, does nickel plated brass seal the chamber as well as plain brass at less then max loads?
Yes, Nickle plated cases are harder than bare brass cases are and they resist re-sizing more than bare brass cases.

OP,
There is another alternative to your problem, Redding makes a dual ring carbide resizing die that will leave the body of the brass more to the original size of your chamber than a single ring will.

https://www.redding-reloading.com/on...g-carbide-dies

I started using these a few years ago and yes they are expensive but my brass isn't sooty on the outside any more with medium loads which means the brass is sealing in the chamber now.
Because the body size of the case is larger, coming out of one of these dies, it doesn't have near as far to expand as it would if sized with a single ring die.

That means that nothing is getting past them to come back and hit you or anyone else.
My .357 mag brass quit splitting also. Added bonus.

Just throwing this out there, again, they are not cheap, but they are not a gimmick either. They are for real.
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Old February 17, 2020, 11:15 PM   #25
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Ok ordered the sizer. I also use the redding sizer on my 9mm.

Also I tried 4.3 g BE, was pretty good,once in a while a spat of soot would wind up on the glass on the red-dot.

So I am back to my 4.6 BE, Factory spring...
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