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Old November 30, 2016, 10:16 AM   #26
Kevin Rohrer
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"Deaf" and "Double" among others had good advice. In answer to the OP, if the problem is outside, stay inside. If the problem is inside with you, leave if practible, or find solid cover away from the problem.

Also think outside the box if you need to exit. First floor stores in malls all have back doors they use for moving stuff in and out. Don't be shy about going in the back room and having a clerk tell you where it's located.
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Old November 30, 2016, 10:12 PM   #27
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Best response is to..

determine where you are relation to "event",
Contact 911 and give accurate information, keep on line using earbuds with mic,
Do not "brandish" firearm, etc. keep it covered UNLESS in direct contact, then follow your training / inclination.
Maybe delay exiting to avoid "stampede" and possible hold open a viable exit and remain calm.

Let other's panic, you keep your cool.

Remember arriving LEO's are going to "Neutralize" armed persons.

No hard and fast rules, you are going play it as it develops.
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Old December 1, 2016, 11:11 AM   #28
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Never go here or there - lots of hindsight bias here.
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No there isn't. . . Avoiding a possible situation by not being with the Black Friday masses at the mall
If I may be so bold as to rephrase Dr. Meyer's point, it is nowhere close to true that the only mall shootings are on Black Friday. You can wait until Sunday, or December 23rd, or whenever, and there could still be a mall shooting. Or there could be a shooting wherever you decided you did want to go on Black Friday. On what day can you venture to the mall, or anywhere else, with an absolute assurance that there will be no violence? Avoiding areas of unrest and unsafe neighborhoods are one thing, but several posts think blaming victims for being at the mall when a gang incident occurs in the parking lot is not helpful advice, and I agree.
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Old December 15, 2016, 05:29 AM   #29
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Old December 15, 2016, 11:27 AM   #30
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But you are never around for a mass shooting.
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Old December 18, 2016, 04:13 PM   #31
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If I cannot determine the direction of the threat, I will simply walk to the nearest exit and leave. If I can tell where the threat is, I will move opposite that direction. Its always a good idea to know where the ground floor delivery corridors are in the mall, they are a quick exit if you need to get out fast.
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Old December 18, 2016, 05:03 PM   #32
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Black Friday, the mall, it is smoke and mirrors. You are at a location, any location and crap happens. Have a plan, have a backup plan, be able to develop a plan on the run.

Always carry, carry enough gun. Master your carry gun. Are these times the times to carry a mouse gun? Know where other people special to you are located. Do not get involved in others altercations unless you do so in a decisive manner.

I am a retired LEO and my wife is disabled, I am not leaving her to hunt BG's, not my problem. If BG is close enough to be a threat or in my way to safety then I will end him/her/them.
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Old December 29, 2016, 09:21 PM   #33
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I carry a real gun. Glock 19 Gen 4, TruGlo fiber optic sights. I can shoot it.
Plus a G17 spare mag. Flash light, folding knife, always.

At the ripe old age of 81, my job is to look after my Wife, period.

If I have to shoot half a dozen youths, to protect my Wife, I will. But being at a Mall in the dark, not happening, we shop B/4 4 PM.

So be wide awake, Situation Awareness, period. Our second Marriage, has lasted 23 years, we know how to dovetail together.

No matter what we will survive!
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Old December 29, 2016, 10:11 PM   #34
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Smugly condemning folks for doing what they like to is something we in the gun community are used to. We should be careful not to do it to others.
Very well said sir.
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Old December 30, 2016, 09:06 AM   #35
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It's been interesting to read all these responses. I'm just beginning to consider CCW. One thing I always wonder is, how much safer am I really, carrying a pistol?

Sometimes I wonder if I'd be safer with body armor

I look at the various scenarios that get reported, like the ISIS groupie at OSU with his car and his knife. I can clearly see how that would have ended differently had the cop not been right there when he launched his attack. What if the cop had been 2 minutes away instead of 30 seconds? What if, when the cop arrived on the scene, one or two CCW carriers had been there with pistols drawn, saving lives, and the cop thought THEY were the criminals? After all, the first announcement that went out across the campus was "ACTIVE SHOOTER" when the real attacker had a knife.

Or this mall scenario. How closely involved do I have to be in a potential attack before the pistol makes me any safer? In almost any scenario, I'd have to run and/or hide. Get my kids to safety any way I can. If it's a gang fight gone wrong (can it ever go right?) I need to get as far as possible from a stray bullet--I'm not their target. The heater on my hip won't keep me safe from stray gunfire.

Or some disgruntled whacko shows up in a strip mall with an AR and starts blasting in random directions at crowds. Am I going to circle back and tack down the gunman with my pistol?

It seems that the instances in which i would actually be able to use my pistol in self defense would be an extremely small % of the total possible scenarios.
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Old December 30, 2016, 09:23 AM   #36
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A firearm isn't a magical talisman that blocks all evil. It is just a tool. If you end up in a black swan event like a terror attack in a public place, it may not be the best option available; but it does give you options.

And, in at least several instances, people armed only with pistols have stopped or mitigated active shooters who were better armed. For example, in the Kenya attack, one guy entered the mall with a pistol and 13 rounds and ended up saving several dozen people by holding an exit open and teaming up with other armed civilians and off-duty police. There was also a case in Pennsylvania where a mentally disturbed person attempted to shoot up the hospital where he was being treated - it didn't get much press because his first victim (his doctor) drew a .32 and stopped the attack immediately after being shot.

That doesn't mean a pistol is always going to help (as Mark Wilson shows); but again, it gives you an extra option in a bad situation.
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Old December 30, 2016, 10:10 AM   #37
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BR has some good points. A gun is only a tool. Whether or not it makes you safer falls completely into its application by you in a dangerous situation.

Carrying a gun does not make situations safer, though it may make you feel safer, and this is something many people actually confuse.

Carrying a gun isn't for everybody. Depending on your concerns and hesitance, it may not be for you at this time. That is okay. Great responsibility comes with carrying and deploying a gun in a dangerous situation. Deploying your gun may actually increase your personal level of risk. After all, there is a good chance that if you start shooting at the gunman(men), they will stop shooting at other people and try to shoot YOU.

BR mentioned Mark Wilson in Tyler - Dead. Then there was Byron Wilson who tried to stop a gunman on the streets of Houston earlier this year - shot through both legs, shoulder, and likely crippled. It should be pointed out that both of these people would have been safer had they not responded to the shooting. Both interjected themselves into shooting situations from locations of safety. Brendan (Dan) McKown was the CCW involved in the Tacoma mall shooting. He carried a gun for the express purpose of in case something like a mall shooting happened. He worked in a mall. It happened. His gun did not protect him and did not make him safer, but this is no fault of the gun. This was all his fault. Once the shooting was happening, he feared being shot by responding cops if he drew he gun and he reasoned that the gunman was too far away for him to hit. So Dan stood up from behind cover/concealment and yelled at the gunman who promptly shot Dan 5 times, leaving him as a cripple for life.

No, the gun does not make you safer. YOU make you safer. Whether or not you employ a gun in making you safer if your decision.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; December 30, 2016 at 10:17 AM.
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Old December 30, 2016, 10:45 AM   #38
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Just amazing. The biggest problem in carrying a pistol, in my mind, can you hit a man sized target, past 25 yards. And the #2 problem? Being savvy enough to know if you should?

Or will you just make yourself a target? For the ones you do not see.

Our latest, newest Mall in Orlando. The Millennium Mall, I have been dragged through quite a few times, not keen on shopping. This Husband!

But I have noticed the plain doors, tucked away on the ground floor level (in fact took a trip down one passage one time) depending on the size of the attacking group (in this mythical Terrorist group) would blockers be placed outside?

Seems like you put your every day pistol, and spare magazine on when you head out from home, what happens whilst you are out?
Is not yet to be known, you will just have to cross that bridge when you get to it.
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Old December 31, 2016, 10:32 AM   #39
Nanuk
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Sometimes I wonder if I'd be safer with body armor

I look at the various scenarios that get reported, like the ISIS groupie at OSU with his car and his knife. I can clearly see how that would have ended differently had the cop not been right there when he launched his attack. What if the cop had been 2 minutes away instead of 30 seconds? What if, when the cop arrived on the scene, one or two CCW carriers had been there with pistols drawn, saving lives, and the cop thought THEY were the criminals? After all, the first announcement that went out across the campus was "ACTIVE SHOOTER" when the real attacker had a knife.

Or this mall scenario. How closely involved do I have to be in a potential attack before the pistol makes me any safer? In almost any scenario, I'd have to run and/or hide. Get my kids to safety any way I can. If it's a gang fight gone wrong (can it ever go right?) I need to get as far as possible from a stray bullet--I'm not their target. The heater on my hip won't keep me safe from stray gunfire.

Or some disgruntled whacko shows up in a strip mall with an AR and starts blasting in random directions at crowds. Am I going to circle back and tack down the gunman with my pistol?

It seems that the instances in which i would actually be able to use my pistol in self defense would be an extremely small % of the total possible scenarios.
We call that paralysis by analysis.
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Old January 2, 2017, 02:23 AM   #40
Koda94
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Quote:
It's been interesting to read all these responses. I'm just beginning to consider CCW. One thing I always wonder is, how much safer am I really, carrying a pistol?

Sometimes I wonder if I'd be safer with body armor

I look at the various scenarios that get reported, like the ISIS groupie at OSU with his car and his knife. I can clearly see how that would have ended differently had the cop not been right there when he launched his attack. What if the cop had been 2 minutes away instead of 30 seconds? What if, when the cop arrived on the scene, one or two CCW carriers had been there with pistols drawn, saving lives, and the cop thought THEY were the criminals? After all, the first announcement that went out across the campus was "ACTIVE SHOOTER" when the real attacker had a knife.

Or this mall scenario. How closely involved do I have to be in a potential attack before the pistol makes me any safer? In almost any scenario, I'd have to run and/or hide. Get my kids to safety any way I can. If it's a gang fight gone wrong (can it ever go right?) I need to get as far as possible from a stray bullet--I'm not their target. The heater on my hip won't keep me safe from stray gunfire.

Or some disgruntled whacko shows up in a strip mall with an AR and starts blasting in random directions at crowds. Am I going to circle back and tack down the gunman with my pistol?

It seems that the instances in which i would actually be able to use my pistol in self defense would be an extremely small % of the total possible scenarios.
no one is safer carrying a pistol, the pistol just gives you more options to defend yourself. In any of the scenarios you mentioned a pistol most certainly could be what you need to defend yourself just as much as it may not be needed. The general consensus here is to remove yourself from any situation, but if you cant I'd rather have a pistol even if I don't need it.
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Old January 2, 2017, 05:30 AM   #41
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We turned the TV off, ours sits in the bedroom, (no TV downstairs) at 11 pm.

I slept till 4 am. 5 hours of solid sleep. Old Guys sleep in chunks, this one does anyhow.

Read and clean off E-mails. Jump on to the Gun Blogs, like this excellent one.
Enjoy reading the thought patterns of somewhat like minded people, such as I.

Just about every time we venture out, new Jeep Cherokee is indoor garage kept, always. We are locked into a dry, clean vehicle. Good visibility all around, garage door down, remote set monitored alarm. In our little bubble.

The first time we are in areas of possible physical danger, of an urban kind, is when we park. I have been in poor places for possible defense, all my life, not able to carry a concealed firearm, UK/Germany/Australia/Canada.

Prior to 911 I was able to obtain a Florida CCW, by submitting a State Hunting Lic. as proof of shooting ability. So on my many trips into the USA, once I entered the land of the free, I could be armed. From the mid 80s.

Using my Sons address, till I obtained my Citizenship. Then seamlessly renewed my expiring Florida Lic, with my own dwelling address.

By far the most suitable pistol, in my eyes, the Glock 19, is worn every day.
I liken it to the Insurance slip, kept in my wallet, to be used if required, but always carried. But once I park, I am aware of my surroundings, reference any threats. To me or mine. Once your feet take you into the places we all go to, could be the place that your CCW Pistol is called into play.

It had better be a pistol you can shoot well, that works first time, all the time.
Carrying 16 rounds, why not?
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Old January 2, 2017, 07:58 AM   #42
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Avoiding Black Friday at the mall is something I may want to do, but I have a family.....so, I sometimes go to support.

If this happened and I were in the parking lot near the shooting.....Draw, Keep eye on shooters, move family to safety. Fight if the opportunity arises while keeping family safe. Stay on foot to be mobile. Family on phone to 911.

If inside mall away from event. Move to farthest away indoor location near 1-3 exit opportunities.....call 911. Stay on foot. If violence moves into mall, retreat out your opposite side exits and consider safest routes of evacuation, rides from friends, etc. The key is don't just randomly do things. Leaving maybe a good choice, but often malls are located in either isolated areas or areas I don't want to be out in the open by. Once you leave on foot as a family, you are a pretty soft target.
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Old January 2, 2017, 04:28 PM   #43
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Fight if the opportunity arises while keeping family safe.
I might phrase that, "Fight if the need arises . . . "
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Old January 5, 2017, 10:19 AM   #44
Glenn Dee
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It was an armed concealed carry civilian that took the fight to the shooters, and assisted in rescuing many hostages.

I believe the time to prepare for such a situation is before you get into it. That or become a total recluse. I can only share my own plans and observations. Every time one of these incidents happen I do some research and become better educated. I look for details , like did they work in pairs, what was their killing ground, what kind of weapons were they armed with, did they plan for the arrival of authorities. My friends and I do some gaming over coffee.

I've made adjustments to my EDC, plan an escape route upon arrival, if I'm with other we decide on a rally point to meet in case of an emergency.

I refuse to allow these people to win, I for one will always fight back. Even if that's just to survive.
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Old January 5, 2017, 04:11 PM   #45
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I avoid malls like the plague.
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Old January 17, 2017, 09:19 PM   #46
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Targa nailed it. I agree with him 100%
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