Bayonette legal for home defense? - Page 2

AirborneMosinFan · July 7, 2011, 02:09 PM

**44 AMP** · July 7, 2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

On a side note, I rather doubt that the triangular bayonet blade runs afoul of the Hauge convention as it was used on several military rifles including both the Mosin Nagant and certain SKS variants well into the 1950's and 1960's.

I'm not sure about Czarist Russia, but I am fairly certain (without checking) that the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the Hague Convention, nor Communist China, the two major users and suppliers of the Mosin Nagant and SKS design rifles. They would have no qualms about a triangular bayonet (or anything else convered under the European "rules of warfare".

I think that if you used the bayonet attached to a rifle to repel boarders, when you had other opitions, its certainly going to used against you in court (should it go to court). How successful the prosecution is using that to tarnish your image in the eyes of the jury is questionable, but I'm certain they would try.

One thing that will almost surely be ask is why didn't you just shoot your attacker. Answering that "I didn't want to wake up the neighborhood" probably wouldn't get you any points from the jury, unless maybe you are in the right part of the country.

Remember that the underlying premise of a claim of self defense for the use of deadly force, is that you had to do it. You had no other choice or option. You are admitting you did it, but that you had to do it. "He needed killin'" is no longer a valid legal defense in the US that I am familiar with. Although the sentement still abounds, and you might get agreement, it no longer excludes you from the penalties of law.

SO, you had to use the mounted bayonet to defend yourself. And the bad guy got hurt/died. Other than the scenario that you are surpised and have to grab the closest thing, and it happens to be an unloaded rifle with a bayonet affixed (and unsheathed - if you take the time to take the sheath off the bayonet, that opens up a whole 'nother kettle of fish as to the content of your character) just how do you explain to the authorities (police/prosecutor) just why you had to use it.

Personally, I'd love to hear that. And your lawyer ought to hear it first, then after he tells you that you were an idiot, you can try and figure out a way to keep the law from charging you.

For some odd reason, I'm, getting the mental image of an aged Pacific war vet, have a bad flashback, grabbing the display Arisaka (because the Garand, which IS loaded, is in the bedroom

) and lunging on the gangbanger who broke in, screaming "Banzai this punk!!!!" And, of course, leaving the punk pinned to the wall until the police arrive, so as to not disturb the evidence. OR perhaps sitting on the porch, having a smoke cleaning the blood off the bayonet when the cops show up....

Either way, that's going to be a tough sell in court. The idea of using the bayonet is just so ..farfetched.. today it will boggle the jurors minds.

OK, you bayonetted him, because the rifle wasn't loaded, right? Why didn't you buttstroke him, instead? Why did you have to stab him? (and there better be only one stab wound, or you are REALLY going to have some explaining to do! And no matter what the truth is, it might not help!

good luck

AirborneMosinFan · September 21, 2011, 04:14 PM

I have to say I loved reading your answer

ltc444 · September 21, 2011, 07:54 PM

Concure with Al Norris' comment. Knife laws differ from gun laws. They very from state to state.

If memory serves me right, Arkansas' laws on using a knife were more stringent than using a firearm.

oneounceload · September 21, 2011, 08:03 PM

Quote:

This is hypothetical,

Sorry, sounds more like video game fantasy

you stab someone with a bayonet on a shotgun or EBR - it gets paraded in front of a jury

right or wrong, it is not going to be pretty for you

**Aguila Blanca** · September 21, 2011, 08:16 PM

Mate, a knife is a deadly (or "lethal") weapon in every jurisdiction I can think of. If an intruder is IN my house, armed with a knife, and not running for the door with his back to me ... he's a lethal threat and I'm not about to play Heartbreak Ridge. I'm going to shoot him.

war_elephant · September 21, 2011, 09:59 PM

The only reason I would bayonet someone is if the gun was out of ammo or a wall hanger and the only thing I could get to. Of course all is fair if the perp is a threat to my safety. I will nail him to the wall if I have to. That being said, evening things up is a good way to get hurt. If the bad guy broke into your HOME and you feel that your life is Threatened (and it should if he broke in while you are home) All is fair, shotgun, handgun, bayonet, flamethrower

, Protect your family by any means necessary to end the threat.

csmsss · September 21, 2011, 10:17 PM

Who REALLY stores his rifles with affixed bayonet? These old battle rifles are absurdly long as it is.

Frankly, I find the idea of using a bayonet in home defense quite preposterous.

thallub · September 21, 2011, 10:40 PM

Don't try to fight a guy with a knife: Shoot him. Cops shoot knife armed guys for a good reason. This cop thought he could take on a guy with a knife. Click on the photos. Graphic:

http://blogidaho.blogspot.com/2007/0...th-knives.html

**44 AMP** · September 22, 2011, 02:16 AM

I do have some of my milsurps stored with bayonet fixed (and sheathed). Its a good way to ensure the bayonet stays with the rifle its intended for.

There's an old saying that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the hospital. Loser goes to the morgue.

If the bayonet is off the rifle, its a knife. If its on the rifle, just why would you be using it? (see my previous post).

Dr. Strangelove · September 22, 2011, 03:05 AM

Loved 44amp's first response, hilarious.

A rifle with bayonet is no more or less a deadly weapon in this case than just bashing someone's brains out with a SCUBA tank, or grabbing a wine bottle off the counter and beating someone's head in.

You have to take into account a jury, and most just aren't going to relate to bayoneting someone in your home...

stevelyn · September 22, 2011, 04:14 AM

Quote:

OK, you bayonetted him, because the rifle wasn't loaded, right? Why didn't you buttstroke him, instead? Why did you have to stab him? (and there better be only one stab wound, or you are REALLY going to have some explaining to do! And no matter what the truth is, it might not help!

Butt-stroking requires you to step in closer to your opponent to get in a hit. The bayonet hanging off the end of the barrel gives you the longest reach and keeps you a little further out of the bad guy's reach.

That said, I recommend the OP have a dedicated HD/SD handgun and leave the bayonet charges to military units that get themselves into a pickle.

MLeake · September 22, 2011, 12:04 PM

csmss, my uncle has a WWII Japanese rifle (I think in 6mm or 6.5mm, not sure of make) with bayonet as a wall display. The only scenario where I could conceive of using a bayonet would be if I were at his house when somebody broke in. (He lives in MA; I can't bring my guns if I visit.)

Of course, he has guns and permit, so even then the bayonet would be last resort.

graysmoke · September 22, 2011, 12:45 PM

If you were to kill a bad guy intruder in your home. Even if you killed him with a large kitchen butcher knife....
It was in 'Self Defence'.

Don P · September 22, 2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Why would one use a bayonet in a lethal force scenario when one has a gun?

So the perp has the opportunity to disarm you and stick the bayonet where da sun don't shine

Jim March · September 22, 2011, 01:34 PM

If you stick 'em and THEN shoot 'em, you're pretty much guaranteed not gonna miss.

Stressfire · September 22, 2011, 01:47 PM

Quote:

If you stick 'em and THEN shoot 'em, you're pretty much guaranteed not gonna miss.

Lol, not even sure where to start with that one

Ronbert · September 22, 2011, 02:04 PM

You shoot 'em to help withdraw the bayonet, don't you?

(I wasn't infantry trained so may be mistaken)

m.p.driver · September 22, 2011, 02:08 PM

I have a bayonet from my Army days that will fit my AR,but it has never occurred to me to keep it fixed.Frankly if someone breaks into my house,advances on me or my family with a knife,he's getting a double tap of 185gr. .45 +p.You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

Kreyzhorse · September 22, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Lets say the perp had a knife and you wanted to even it up. Would you be right in your actions?

Why would you want to "even it up"? If there is an intruder in my home who has threatened me with a knife, I want to end the threat immediately. No ifs, ands or buts and the quickest way to do so is to shoot him.

In my opinion, if you used a knife simply because that is what the intruder had, I would find it really hard to believe that you were in actual fear for your life and acted in self defense.

Doyle · September 22, 2011, 07:54 PM

Quote:

The guys and I were sitting around waiting for pt formation and we got into the topic of chosen weapons.

That kind of Army thinking is why we have the Marine Corps.

July 7, 2011, 02:09 PM	#26
AirborneMosinFan Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2011 Location: Kelly nc Posts: 137	Got a new one __________________ "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." - General George Washington

September 21, 2011, 04:14 PM	#28
AirborneMosinFan Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2011 Location: Kelly nc Posts: 137	44amp I know this was a while ago but I have to say I loved reading your answer __________________ "To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." - General George Washington

September 21, 2011, 09:59 PM	#32
war_elephant Member Join Date: June 29, 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 70	The only reason I would bayonet someone is if the gun was out of ammo or a wall hanger and the only thing I could get to. Of course all is fair if the perp is a threat to my safety. I will nail him to the wall if I have to. That being said, evening things up is a good way to get hurt. If the bad guy broke into your HOME and you feel that your life is Threatened (and it should if he broke in while you are home) All is fair, shotgun, handgun, bayonet, flamethrower , Protect your family by any means necessary to end the threat. __________________ Marine, Retired LEO, Firearms Instructor, Life Member NRA Tea Party Member, and general all around trouble maker.

September 22, 2011, 02:16 AM	#35
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,835	I do have some of my milsurps stored with bayonet fixed (and sheathed). Its a good way to ensure the bayonet stays with the rifle its intended for. There's an old saying that in a knife fight, the winner goes to the hospital. Loser goes to the morgue. If the bayonet is off the rifle, its a knife. If its on the rifle, just why would you be using it? (see my previous post). __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 22, 2011, 03:05 AM	#36
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	Fix Bayonets! Charge! Loved 44amp's first response, hilarious. A rifle with bayonet is no more or less a deadly weapon in this case than just bashing someone's brains out with a SCUBA tank, or grabbing a wine bottle off the counter and beating someone's head in. You have to take into account a jury, and most just aren't going to relate to bayoneting someone in your home... __________________ Just remember, when you pull the trigger, the bullets come out going very, very fast. So make sure to keep the weapon pointing away from you.

September 21, 2011, 07:54 PM	#29
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Concure with Al Norris' comment. Knife laws differ from gun laws. They very from state to state. If memory serves me right, Arkansas' laws on using a knife were more stringent than using a firearm.

September 21, 2011, 08:16 PM	#31
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Mate, a knife is a deadly (or "lethal") weapon in every jurisdiction I can think of. If an intruder is IN my house, armed with a knife, and not running for the door with his back to me ... he's a lethal threat and I'm not about to play Heartbreak Ridge. I'm going to shoot him.

September 21, 2011, 10:17 PM	#33
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Who REALLY stores his rifles with affixed bayonet? These old battle rifles are absurdly long as it is. Frankly, I find the idea of using a bayonet in home defense quite preposterous.

September 21, 2011, 10:40 PM	#34
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Don't try to fight a guy with a knife: Shoot him. Cops shoot knife armed guys for a good reason. This cop thought he could take on a guy with a knife. Click on the photos. Graphic: http://blogidaho.blogspot.com/2007/0...th-knives.html

September 22, 2011, 12:04 PM	#38
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	csmss, my uncle has a WWII Japanese rifle (I think in 6mm or 6.5mm, not sure of make) with bayonet as a wall display. The only scenario where I could conceive of using a bayonet would be if I were at his house when somebody broke in. (He lives in MA; I can't bring my guns if I visit.) Of course, he has guns and permit, so even then the bayonet would be last resort.

September 22, 2011, 12:45 PM	#39
graysmoke Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 378	If you were to kill a bad guy intruder in your home. Even if you killed him with a large kitchen butcher knife.... It was in 'Self Defence'. __________________ "Keep your powder dry, and eyes on the target". -R. Lee Ermey

September 22, 2011, 01:34 PM	#41
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	If you stick 'em and THEN shoot 'em, you're pretty much guaranteed not gonna miss. __________________ Jim March

September 22, 2011, 02:04 PM	#43
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	You shoot 'em to help withdraw the bayonet, don't you? (I wasn't infantry trained so may be mistaken)

September 22, 2011, 02:08 PM	#44
m.p.driver Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 552	I have a bayonet from my Army days that will fit my AR,but it has never occurred to me to keep it fixed.Frankly if someone breaks into my house,advances on me or my family with a knife,he's getting a double tap of 185gr. .45 +p.You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.