'Reloading' For Shooting Vs. 'Re-Manufactured' Cases & Ammo

[JeepHammer]

Just wondering about the guys suggesting this or that,
If they just 'Reload' for shooting in THEIR firearms,
Or if people manufacture their own brass/bullets, or Remanufacture the brass, return it to factory/SAAMI specifications in every way?

Here, and on the 'High Road', I see VIOLENT opposition to simple stuff like case gauges, brass rolling, ect. saying it's completely unnecessary...
And usually in regards to someone having issues with fitment into a particular firearm...
Someone posting a 'Help Me' thread that turns into a crap fight about gauges, accurate measuring equipment, ect...

This baffles me since it's always the same answer,
"You don't need a case gauge or even a caliper, just crank the die down a little more and the case will eventually fit the chamber"...

I *Try* to remanufacture the brass to SAAMI specs most times since most of my cases/ammo will be used in different firearms,
AND,
I don't want to be responsible for my ammo screwing up a firearm it's fired in.
I'm aware there are folks that simply 'Bump' the shoulder/neck a little and run the brass without returning it as close to SAAMI as is practical, I get that,
But I don't understand why someone would recommend it for everyone, no matter what the situation or problem being encountered...

The second thought I have is people that shoot a LOT of ammo, but have only seen videos or took a quick tour of a plant of manufacture making recommendations that seem counter productive to me as a manufacturer/remanufacturer.

I wouldn't presume to present myself as an 'Expert' on electronics simply because I flipped on/off a bunch of light switches every day,
So how does slinging completed rounds down range qualify the shooter as an 'Expert' in remanufacture or reloading?
Most of those guys reload the same round over and over, on equipment they purchased, to a specification that 'Works' for one specific application...

I'm NOT trying to start a crap fight here!
I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are...

I'm aware of 'Fan Boys' that proclaim the loader 'They' have works best above all others, When they haven't actually OWNED all the others or spent considerable time on them...
I'm aware there are 'Plants' on all forums that pump up a specific product, usually for personal gain,
Just rules of the internet. Buyer beware...

I'm also aware there are certain products that just plain work, the first time out of the box, so they are pretty much universally touted as 'The Best' common this or that...

I'm wondering why when you show someone specifications from someplace like SAAMI, then tell someone how to get those specifications the easiest way possible (I didn't say 'Easily', some of this is real work),
Why some of the guys shout you down, Even insulting your abilities along the way?

[44 AMP]

I'm wondering why when you show someone specifications from someplace like SAAMI, then tell someone how to get those specifications the easiest way possible (I didn't say 'Easily', some of this is real work),
Why some of the guys shout you down, Even insulting your abilities along the way?

Simple answer, Human nature.

No matter what the subject is, there is a certain segment of people who believe that their way is the only correct way. Or that their way is good enough and anything beyond that is unnecessary, and a waste of time, effort, and often, money.

Returning everything possible to SAAMI specs certainly works, but it is not the only way to create functional ammunition, FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL ARMS.

SAAMI specs are not laws of nature, immutable until we obtain a higher plane of existence, they are a set of standards agreed upon by a voluntary association of manufacturers. They provide uniformity standards so the ammunition will function safely in all firearms (in proper working condition).

One example is pressure, SAAMI has pressure specs, which are the safe working pressure of the round. They are not a "safety limit" they are a "safety boundary". There is a difference.

[F. Guffey]

'Reloading' For Shooting Vs. 'Re-Manufactured' Cases & Ammo

One day I was approached by a few lawyers, they wanted me to agree with them and there motive was to help their client. I made it very clear to them I needed more information. Their client was being sued over the wording of rebuild and remanufactured with shades of overhauling. I asked to talk to their client; in my opinion he took short cuts and he did not overhaul or rebuild, and then I explained to him why I did not agree with him.

I was sked to inform them if the if lawyers representing the other party contacted me.

THR, there is something about that forum that falls short of resembling anything that would be considered 'High road', there is nothing about being high road that falls under the category of two standards.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I'm NOT trying to start a crap fight here!
I'm just trying to understand why things are the way they are...

And I appreciate that but please understand there are a few socially dysfunctional members on reloading forums. Some are 'Widely Indignant about everything". All Capp would call them 'SWIANE', no one remembers the problems he had with students. He called them SWIANE, Students widely indignant about nearly everything.

And then one day they decided they were going to 'get em'. And he said "Here I am", they had him surrounded, he got a room in the middle of spring break.

F. Guffey

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/78951.Al_Capp

[alexcue]

It depends on my guns and calibers. I have several 9mm's for instance. So they have to fit in all of them. For me, 9mm has to go through a chamber checker. Just cause it plunks in one doesn't mean it will plunk in another. If I chamber check the round and it passes, I'm pretty sure it's gonna work in all of them. Now C.O.L. can be another factor... I have some guns that work with Flat points, others that won't. That's a feeding issue as far as I'm concerned.

40 S&W, it just has to fit in my one gun!

[Nathan]

SAAMI is around to align ammo and reamer makers. Many of us realize that that a chamber can be made close to 308 Win that won't support 308 win ammo.

So the idea is to create some standards such that if my ammo falls within the standard and my gun fits that standard in it that I have a working system.

Add to that 25 different gun makers and 25 different ammo makers and it is clear that the group needs a standard to work toward to have a safe, accurate and reliable system.

[firewrench044]

It is human nature, that their way is the only way
With a little age we find that every body has an opinion
and most of the time its different than yours
( and I am not always right )

I have learned that even an idiot may have a good idea so I listen
to what they have to say

I don't agree with a lot of opinions expressed on these forums
but I do keep an open mind and follow through and check the
idea out and accept or disregard it
( you mentioned bumping the shoulder back only, I also disagree
with that, we have, at our disposal, all types of tools that make
that procedure obsolete, but some insist on continued use of it )

As for some being an A__ H___ about it, that's counter productive
and no help at all, but I am sorry to say that to, is human nature

I too adhere to SAAMI specs. but also do my best to make ammo
better than new ammo

Keep in mind if some one tries to"shut you down" viciously
they have no other facts on their side to stop the argument
so that probably means you are right

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by jeephammer

I'm wondering why when you show someone specifications from someplace like SAAMI, then tell someone how to get those specifications the easiest way possible (I didn't say 'Easily', some of this is real work),
Why some of the guys shout you down, Even insulting your abilities along the way?

Because 99.99% of the time it is not necessary to re-manufacture (as opposed to reload) ammo to SAAMI specs.

Base of your 9mm not quite to SAAMI specs? Is it necessary to roll size your brass to get that last .0005" of bulge out of the base? Very few guns have chambers sized to SAAMI minimum specs, so that last half-thousandth or so that your typical reloading dies can't get out is irrelevant.

The vast majority of reloaders don't even know where to FIND the SAAMI specs for their cartridges, much less how to read or interpret the drawings. If the re-loaded ammo works in their guns, they are fine. No need to worry about going to excessive lengths to make it meet some spec that doesn't matter.

[JeepHammer]

I said up front that I'm NOT trying to start anything here, or anywhere else...

I'm the 'Socially Inept' guy in the room,
I have an engineering mentality, which precludes me from 95% of social 'Niceties' right off the bat.
I don't read facial expressions very well, I miss sarcasm, and I'm even worse at taking things the wrong way on Internet posts...

I do understand 'Gears & Wires' to a pretty good degree,
I spent 16 years as a Marine Grunt, so my formal education is limited to being a self-propelled sand bag.

What I don't understand is the anger injected into posts a lot of times,
Much of the time the guy with the dumbest idea is the most vocal, and the least polite at the same time,
Like there opinion was the ONLY one that mattered, and everyone else was stupid, no matter how well the differing opinions were explained...

Also, the complete and utter refusal to accept facts...
The same old crap keeps getting handed down as 'Fact' contrary to any scientific data or accepted manufacturing practices...
Its just not that hard to accept, especially when someone spells it out for you, posts references, that something is the way it is.
Some of these guys would argue it being daylight at 12:00 noon!

Disrespect of someone that makes a STRONG case, footnoted, well explained, is incomprehensible to me.
If someone teaches me ONE thing, I'm grateful,
Someone takes the time to explain the entire process, footnotes the points they are making with reputable sites or text,
And answers questions I might have gets very high respect.
First for the knowledge they passed along, second for taking the TIME to verify every step of the process, and third for answering my questions to help me better understand what's actually going on.

I know that actual RESEARCH is a dying practice, I for one appreciate when someone is 'Long Winded' (detailed explanation) and tells me not only what worked for them, but warns me of pitfalls they made so I don't waste time/money making the same mistakes!
I make PLENTY of mistakes on my own, I don't need to repeat the same mistakes others have made!

I've noticed it's usually the 'One Line' guys that get bent out of shape also.
Like they have the 'Last Word' and everyone is supposed to know hat they mean...
You ask a question or disagree, suddenly the crap starts...

I grew up in the 'Chuck In The Head' generation,
Ask all the questions you want, but get snippy or sarcastic/insulting and you get the 'Chuck'...
The Internet has yet to provide that instant, physical feedback, and I think that might be the reason some people just don't 'Get It'...

As for 'Repaired', 'Rebuilt', 'Remanufactured',
I've been in a couple of those fights also.
For some reason, there are a TON of people that don't know the difference, and that includes the business owners...

'Manufactured' means just that,
All new components, assembled at the manufacturing location.

'Remanufactured' means everything torn down, tested/inspected, and reassembled to a SPECIFIC set of tolerances laid out in advance.

'Rebuilt' means almost the same as 'Repaired',
Rebuilt means almost anything goes, no specific set of specifications in advance, tolerances can vary from one piece to the next.

'Repaired' simply means the 'Broken' component was fixed, no guarantee the unit wasn't modified beyond manufacturers specification.

I was VERY careful with my wording...
With cases (or loaded ammo), remanufactures means the case is back to SAAMI specification enough it will load/function like a new case.
That includes annealing/heat treating, case sizing, primer pocket sizing, ect.
If it won't pass for new, its not 'Remanufactured'...

[JeepHammer]

I would have to call what most guys do 'Resizing', or at most 'Conditioning' the case for reloading.
Very few even bother to anneal, and nobody I know outside of professionals heat treats the case, then anneals the neck.

I get a bunch are just bumping so it fits in the chamber and will hold another bullet...
What gets me is when they recommend that to someone they know nothing about!

Recently the guy was having an issue with his reloads NOT fitting 2 of 4 rifles he was loading for,
At least 6 replies was to crank the die down a little farther until the rounds fit all of the rifles...
And these were AR's! 'Generous' chambers to say the least,
And the mere suggestion of a case gauge to tell if the SIZING DIE was the issue got crapped on...

When the die WAS cranked down (per recommendation) the headspace was so excessive the firing pin wouldn't strike the primer half the time,
And the rounds still wouldn't load in one of the rifles,
The guy finally reposted, listened, got a case gauge and found the die was defective...
A $20 case gauge would have caught that on the first go-around, saving weeks of work/frustration...

The guy popped for a competition small base die, everything works in all rifles,
And he's happy!
Too bad he had to mess around an extra month and ruin brass with bad advise...

Another example is annealing necks...
The old plumbing blow torch & templaque paint seem to be the 'Go To' all the time when its by far NOT the most effective way to do things...
And yet, when the subject comes up, its still 10 to 1 for the blow torch.
And several insisting that annealing isn't going to do anything!

The commercial annealers usually use a SMALL torch, and often multiple torches to keep heating even & under control,
While more and more are moving to even more controllable & precise electrical annealing.

The idea of annealing 'Doing Nothing But Waste Time' offends me since every single manufacturer, even the 'China' manufacturers heat treat then anneal brass...
There is simply NO POSSIBLE WAY that annealing can 'Do Nothing' TO THE BRASS, its a metallurgical constant that annealing will 'Do Something' to the brass. Period. That's why its a 'Given'...

Its a question of annealing producing POSITIVE RESULTS for you...

*IF* your rifle/loads are finely tuned enough that you ARE seeing results of any kind, good or bad, you are already in the top 2%,
Most guys won't see real results from annealing because they don't have a rifle/load worked out well enough that results get past other, larger issues.

If a guy is asking about annealing, then explain the part about having a load that works with your rifle,
Then explain the results might me positive or negative.
If you don't see results, then you aren't 'Tuned' fine enough annealing shows a change...

Don't just say its a waste of time, does nothing, or direct him to use some arcane way of doing it that produces poor, inconsistent results.
Give him the information, let him decide if he's ready for that particular step of experimentation or not...

[Sarge]

I've only been reloading about 40 years- but I've never had trouble getting reloaded ammo to fit any firearm if I adjusted reloading dies per the manufacturer's instructions.

[jmorris]

I do both.

I have some ammunition that is made for a particular barrel and I have some that will fit an function in any firearm chambered for that caliber.

However, the ammunition that I do have that will work in a particular rifle will put perform any factory loading I have tried and some there is no such thing as factory ammunition available.

[Snyper]

I'm NOT trying to start a crap fight here!

I've seen you use that line quite often on multiple websites, and it's normally followed by: "BUT..."

Reloading isn't always about SAMMI specs, and it's never about sermons by those who pretend to know it all when the evidence shows they don't.

Many here were reloading before you got out of diapers, and don't need instructions.

Much of the time the guy with the dumbest idea is the most vocal, and the least polite at the same time,

Like there opinion was the ONLY one that mattered, and everyone else was stupid, no matter how well the differing opinions were explained...

Look in the mirror.

[polyphemus]

Jeephammer
You have delivered a pontificating screed which contributed nothing to the craft of reloading.

[JeepHammer]

'Snyper' is a fine example of what often shows up...
Assuming that I'm young,
Assuming that I'm Inexperenced,
Insults following,
Then the 'Last Word' as if he should be universally recognized as the expert in all things...

I don't know 'Sniper' or his capabilities,
I've not seen him post his production work,
Don't know a thing about his background,
Have no idea about his abilities or qualifications...

The only thing I can deduce from his post is he's angry at someone or somebody...
A good example of what I was talking about.

[JeepHammer]

'45 Auto',
As a matter of fact, I do roll a lot of handgun cases, particularly ones fired in semi-autos with oval chambers and dratamic feed ramps...
Some are to take the feed ramp bulge out of the case,
Others are to simply make the case ROUND again.

In particular, speed guns in .45 ACP.
Speed guns are very often 'Tweeked' so they feed reliably, and ovaling the mouth of the chamber was (and still is) fairly common...
Which produces an oval case with a pronounced bulge that needs to be addressed.

Glocks in many calibers particularly like to bulge at the feed ramp, and again, rolling the case is the only way anyone I've ever heard of knows to get that case round again.
Probably why case rollers were invented in the first place... Common sense thing there, no need, no invention to fill that need.

Mr. Morris,
I have some true oddballs that I truely enjoy!
I'm a .218 Bee fan,
Not because its super fast, super accurate, super popular, ect.
On the contrary, just the opposite.
Its the great grandfather of all the 'Super' 20 calibers out there, and its just plain fun to shoot!

Try finding a jacketed 'Varmint' round for a .218 Bee!
They don't exist unless you make them, so I get your point.

OK 'Polly', how about this,
Arguing FOR properly sized cases that will fit SAFELY into production firearms.
Arguing for processes that will produce said safe cases,
Reloading those cases within given SAFE limitations.

NOT telling everyone to do exactly the same thing all the time,
Finding out SPECIFICALLY what the issues/situations are before dumping the same old lines over & over...

Dispelling much of the 'Same Old' for a proper, accepted, and provable way to do things...

Case gauge is a fine example,
If you 'Crank Down On The Die', the old standby that makes my hair stand on end,
You have ZERO diagnosis of what the issue actually is, that may 'Fix' one problem, but create another, potentially larger issue.

WITH a case gauge, you can diagnose the case issue,
You can PROVE progress, since you can show changes in the brass,
You can compare your brass against an accepted standard (gauge being the standard),
You will know EXACTLY when you reach SAFE ACCEPTED STANDARDS, because you have a standard, the case gauge...

Recommending 'Hit & Miss' tactics is not just reckless, its dangerous.

How is that for adding to the sport of reloading on the Internet?
Why people that know about reason & standards allow the bullies to answer without calling them out in the first place is beyond me...
If someone has to ask the question in the first place, you KNOW he's not experienced enough to make judgment between experience and bad advise,
Unless you subscribe to the 'Crank Down' method for every question...

[Snyper]

The only thing I can deduce from his post is he's angry at someone or somebody...
A good example of what I was talking about.

No anger at all.

It's just that I've seen you do this same thing on several different forums, and you always seem surprised when you get the same responses from most people.

I've even seen you argue the opposite of data from a posted manual from the manufacturer about the correct size for a black powder ball.

Reality is you just love to hear yourself talk about how much you know, when much of it is simply not correct, and it takes you pages and pages to answer questions no one asked.

You've even tried to school BartB in long range shooting.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ght=jeephammer

[jmorris]

They don't exist unless you make them, so I get your point.

That was not my only point, sometimes ammunition will be more accurate outside SAAMI specifications.

It is pretty common knowledge that some firearms are more accurate with a longer than spec OAL, getting the bullet closer to the rifling, for example.

If "spec" ammo was always better lots of folks wouldn't hand load at all. Some are in the hobby to be able to shoot more but others are here to make things they can't buy.

I have a .22 hornet that for whatever reason shoots about 3" at 100 yards with factory ammunition. If I size the case neck just as far down as the bullet makes contact with it and touch nothing below that point and an OAL .010" off the lands the thing will shoot under 1/2" @ 100. If I loaded everything to SAAMI spec I would have never known how accurate it was.

[JeepHammer]

Mr. Morris, I agree entirely...
And you kind if made my point at the same time.

You KNOW for a fact that seating at 0.010" off your lands gives you better performance...
Now, my point is and has been, without gauging the chamber you wouldn't have known you are 0.010" off the lands.

I wouldn't tell a rookie trying to figure out a chamber fitting problem to 'Crank Down' the die to solve all problems,
Just like I wouldn't tell someone to arbitrarily set their bullet 0.010" longer that cartridge over all maximum without knowing the chamber can take that extra length.

We all hear it all the time,
The guys that say (talking guns, not shooting guns where they have to prove the claims) they shoot 1/8 MOA groups,
And NEVER owned a case gauge, then recommend to some new guy they don't buy a case gauge either...

Now, they almost always say the use a neck sizing die,
Bump the shoulder back 0.002",
And reload the case...

I immediately think "B.S!"

First off, a neck sizing die doesn't bump the shoulder back,
It simply sizes the neck.
A neck/shoulder die sizes both the neck & shoulder...

Secondly, how do they know they are only bumping the shoulder back 0.002" since they have no case length gauge?
Without some way to gauge the case accurately BEFORE they resize,
And no gauge to accurately AFTER they resize,
There is no possible way they can determine if 0.002" or 0.200" was done!

Three, if they don't own a case gauge, how do they know he die isn't loose in the press?!
If you don't have a case length gauge of some sort, there isn't any way possible to ensure consistency between rounds, or between case manufacturers, ect.
All experienced reloaders know that different brands of brass resize differently, the reason for things like competition dies, high tolerance shell holder sets, ect.

Doesn't matter to me if its a datum line adapter on a caliper or micrometer, or one of the faux chamber type gauges and caliper or straight edge and feeler gauges,
You simply can not express +0.002" or -0.002" without that gauge and a standard, usually SAAMI used as the standard.
No base line, no gauge, no accurate way to express or compare measurements.

When you express 0.010" 'Long', that is from the SAAMI standard I have to assume, since SAAMI standards are the only universally accepted in ammunition,
And that one statement both shows me you know how to measure with a gauge, and you used SAAMI as your standard base line...

That also proves my point...

What I don't understand is,
The guys that actually know how to use standards, gauges, other measuring equipment don't correct the 'Crank It Down' or 'Smack It With A Hammer', or 'Heat it till it turns red' types...
Especially when someone is asking for help, trying to learn the 'Correct' way to fix what ever issue they are having...

[JeepHammer]

'Snyper',
I'm only a member of three reloading forums, one of which I've never posted on because of the way they act.
I also don't have several different user names on the forums, or several user accounts on the same forum...

The only reason I can think of for having a different user name is to conceal what Im doing,
The only reason to have several accounts on the same forum is to use an alter-ego to back up/second opinion your own first post to create the illusion of support for some idiotic idea or comment.

So go ahead and continue with a personal attack,
And continue to deflect/refute doing things in an accepted, safe manner,
Preventing a discussion on said same accepted, accredited practices, procedures & equipment to accomplish a repeatable desired result...

That's exactly why I asked about it being tolerated in the first place.
You are proving my point...

I stand by using proper measuring equipment,
Using common, accepted standards as a base line,
Giving proper information to less experenced folks so they don't unknowingly create a dangerous situation,
And sharing information, ideas, ect. so the knowledgable can expand the knowledge base.

[F. Guffey]

JeepHammer, a member had a picture of a winch that had been installed of a 6X6, I was thinking it was you. I have one I am going to sell. do you know anyone that is interested.

And one day a truck rolled off of a hill in a residential neighborhood; the 18 wheel type truck hit a parked car and a house. It seemed they were blaming everybody and everything. I did not want to get involved but did talk to the driver. I started with "Now tell me etc.". I told him to start the story and I would finish it. For them it was not easy to consider bad habits had anything to do with the accident.

F. Guffey

[JeepHammer]

I get it Mr. Guffy,
I have a REALLY difficult time with our new hires, I simply can not drill into their heads how & why we use the equipment we do to ensure QC...
Its like it takes 2 years working with the stuff every day, all day long before it sinks in, and I can't do much with them until they catch on... Some never do...

There is a blueprint/drawing for a reason, there are jigs for a reason, and there is $250,000 worth of measuring & QC stuff for a reason,
"About THAT MUCH" don't cut it, we are design/QC, it has to be 'RIGHT'...
(Blank Stare...)

If its an old PTO driven military winch, wouldn't be interested...

[F. Guffey]

If its an old PTO driven military winch, wouldn't be interested...
__________________

I also have a shuffle horn, it looks a little like a creature from Mars. The PTO is not a problem because it is operated with poles while walking around it. Most people are not interested because they have nothing to attach it to. It is about that time I try to sell them a ship type anchor. I have a 310 with a short piece of chain. I hope you did not mind me asking.

The winch for the 6X6 is rated at 10,000 pounds.

F. Guffey

[sawdustdad]

Keep it up, guys.

[briandg]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, my eyes kind of glazed over after a while.

SAAMI as was said is simply voluntary set of standards that most companies follow to standardize their products.

If you buy a set of dies, it should match pretty much every other set, and after using those dies, you should be within a few thousandths of factory brass dimensions, and those brass cases can be then loaded to proper saami dimensions, then fired without any issues in any chamber that is bored out to the SAAMI specs, as long as the ammo is not in some way off in dimensions because of longer bullet shanks, unusual loading practices, etc. Full length resizing is, in according to the principles of the standards written up by the group, going to return the brass to factory specs and after that it's up to you.

To keep things simple, buy standard commercial brass, reload with standard commercial bullets, and load them to standard depths. It will turn your ammunition into what could be called "remanufactured." it was returned to correct specifications.