Bullet seating extremely deep in 38 spl case to recreate 9mm Luger performance - Page 3

John C · October 1, 2016, 04:48 PM

TGOS:

All I can say is great work. You've really adapted and overcome to get your guns shooting.

I think you're on the right track, but far off the beaten path. You remind me of P.T. Kekkonen's work on cat sneeze loads. After WWII in Finland, all he had was scrounged Soviet ammo left over on the battlefield. He pulled the bullets from 7.62 Tokarev and used the bullets and powder to keep his Mosin shooting. He dealt with restrictive permits and lack of components.

I think you're fine with your .357 revolver, but you likely are cutting it close with 9mm level loads. Other shooters are loading .38 special target loads in the manner you describe, and that, to me, makes more sense. If I were looking for powerhouse loads, I would buy .410 shotgun shells and scavenge powder from them. Alternately, you could buy .22 Hornet ammo. This powder will be magnum level pistol powder, and you can work up to true .357 level loads. As a bonus, you can recycle the small rifle primers from the .22 Hornet for use in your .38/.357 cases.

I agree with the others that you might get good bang for the buck by milling your own black powder. You mentioned you're on a farm, so it should be reasonably easy to do, making 100 grams at a time.

Have you considered modifying some .38 spl cases to accept 209 shotgun primers? These could be used with VERY low pressure loads, but would allow you to reuse the primers from the shotgun shells you take apart for powder. Another use for 209 shotgun primers is for wax bullet loads for cheap practice. Your best bet might be to trade the 209 primers for small pistol primers, if you can.

Another tip, which you probably know, is to keep brass cases that split. Once you have a few, trim them down to .38 S&W length, then reload these until they split. Then cut them down to 9mm Luger length, and go through the process again. I've done this with .32 S&W long brass. I cut it down to .32 S&W length and load it again.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 1, 2016, 04:55 PM

Dear John C,

If I walk into my local gun shop and ask for 22 Hornet ammo what do you think they will tell me?

What? What is that? Never heard! They even could call me "crazy".

410 shotshells are availlable as well 20 gauge. Just they ara as expensive or even in the case of 410 way more expensive than 12 ga Shells. AND ALL OF THEM HOLD LESS POWDER. That is the clue.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 1, 2016, 04:59 PM

John C

What do you mean by wax bullet loads?

John C · October 1, 2016, 05:09 PM

TGOS;

Just to note, I updated my previous post while you posting, so we may have crossed in the ether.

Wax bullets are used for "indoor" practice (I don't recommend shooting them indoors, but you're on a farm). There are better instructions on the web, but basically you take an unprimed case and stick it in an approximately 1/2 thick block of soft paraffin wax. This cuts a caliber-diameter plug of paraffin in the case mouth. Take a dowel of the correct diameter and push the was plug to the bottom of the case. Then seat a primer. Load in your pistol and shoot. This will shoot the plug of wax at low velocity with reasonable accuracy to 25 feet or so. They're a blast to shoot!

Keep in mind, prime the cases last. Otherwise the plug of was will compress the air in the case, and after a while the air will expand and push the wax plug back up to the case mouth.

Also, don't use any powder. The higher pressure will make a mess of the wax.

I have 50 cases that I use exclusively for wax bullets, and I used a drill to drill out the flash hole to a larger diameter to get more power directed into the case. Don't use drilled out cases for regular loads!

Keep in mind that these wax bullets are still bullets, and use the same precautions when shooting, ie don't shoot these at anything you're not willing to destroy. They're not toys! It's still a firearm!

**Unclenick** · October 1, 2016, 05:52 PM

Typically you HAVE to drill the flash holes out to 1/8" to keep the primer's own pressure from backing them out and jamming cylinder rotation. That backing out happens in normal loads, too, but in that case the pressure from the gunpowder is high enough to back the case up in the chamber and reseat the primer against the breech face. Not so with a primer fired projectile.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 1, 2016, 06:05 PM

John C,

Wax bullets.

I understand I take my scavenged 12 ga shotshells with the primer in and put a wad in and fill the case (wad Cup) with candle wax.

Is that rigth?
What use are These for?

John C · October 1, 2016, 06:17 PM

TGOS;

No, don't do that. I have no experience with 12 gauge wax loads. Not that it can't be done, but it seems improbable.

I guess I wasn't being clear, use .38 special cases with a 1/2 inch thick (or so) plug of stiff paraffin wax. Drill the flash holes out.

My thought is that if you have the tools, ream out the flash holes on your .38 spl cases to take the 209 shotgun primers. These primers have a lot more power than small pistol primers.

Google the subject; I'm sure much more detailed explanations will come up.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 1, 2016, 08:53 PM

Ok John C,

Understood.

I manipulate 38 spl cases to fit 209 primers and use them as wax bullets.

I am not going to do that since that far of manipulating ammo I will not go.

Any advice for what to use for the empty but primed shotshells&wads is much welcome.

John C · October 2, 2016, 01:46 AM

You can use regular primers; they work just fine. But if you REALLY wanted to use every bit, you can modify a few cases to take 209 shotshell primers. Either way, you'll need to drill out the flash holes.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 22, 2016, 11:37 AM

I realised my deeply seated 124 grain TC and the most recent Lee 148 grain Wadcutters are seated similar to the Nagant Military Surplus ammo.

Like here:

{Edit: Unfortunately, you may not copy images from another site to this forum without permission from the source. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.}
I Attribute the ownership expressely to the below Webpage. Here you can appreciate the Nagant rounds.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/24718

They are seated in an 38 spl case in an similar Fashion as These above Nagant Revolver rounds. Difference is just the caliber and my crimp is just undoing the mouth bell from the Expander die.

In hard media like Wood the 148 grain Wadcutters allways expand to about the double of size (shot in an 357 Magnum SAA Revolver). They perform similar, penetrate similar and expand similar to the 9mm Luger loaded with 124 grain Truncated Cone TL lead bullet. But I recommend to Charge a Little more powder to get more Penetration for lead bullets or water quench the cast bullets. These WC and TC eighter in 9mm Luger or 38 spl cases I load to 3.5 grains od scavenged shotgun powder (till now I loaded them to 3.1 grains but Penetration is to less for me).

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · October 22, 2016, 01:20 PM

Here again my original Picture from post 1. Now embedded in this post.

See similarities to the Nagant Revolver round.

Here the Nagant style Lee 148 grain Wadcutter in an 38 spl case loaded to "357 mag" pressures with 3.4 grain powder:

October 1, 2016, 04:48 PM	#51
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	TGOS: All I can say is great work. You've really adapted and overcome to get your guns shooting. I think you're on the right track, but far off the beaten path. You remind me of P.T. Kekkonen's work on cat sneeze loads. After WWII in Finland, all he had was scrounged Soviet ammo left over on the battlefield. He pulled the bullets from 7.62 Tokarev and used the bullets and powder to keep his Mosin shooting. He dealt with restrictive permits and lack of components. I think you're fine with your .357 revolver, but you likely are cutting it close with 9mm level loads. Other shooters are loading .38 special target loads in the manner you describe, and that, to me, makes more sense. If I were looking for powerhouse loads, I would buy .410 shotgun shells and scavenge powder from them. Alternately, you could buy .22 Hornet ammo. This powder will be magnum level pistol powder, and you can work up to true .357 level loads. As a bonus, you can recycle the small rifle primers from the .22 Hornet for use in your .38/.357 cases. I agree with the others that you might get good bang for the buck by milling your own black powder. You mentioned you're on a farm, so it should be reasonably easy to do, making 100 grams at a time. Have you considered modifying some .38 spl cases to accept 209 shotgun primers? These could be used with VERY low pressure loads, but would allow you to reuse the primers from the shotgun shells you take apart for powder. Another use for 209 shotgun primers is for wax bullet loads for cheap practice. Your best bet might be to trade the 209 primers for small pistol primers, if you can. Another tip, which you probably know, is to keep brass cases that split. Once you have a few, trim them down to .38 S&W length, then reload these until they split. Then cut them down to 9mm Luger length, and go through the process again. I've done this with .32 S&W long brass. I cut it down to .32 S&W length and load it again. Last edited by John C; October 1, 2016 at 05:00 PM.

October 1, 2016, 05:52 PM	#55
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Typically you HAVE to drill the flash holes out to 1/8" to keep the primer's own pressure from backing them out and jamming cylinder rotation. That backing out happens in normal loads, too, but in that case the pressure from the gunpowder is high enough to back the case up in the chamber and reseat the primer against the breech face. Not so with a primer fired projectile. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 22, 2016, 11:37 AM	#60
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	I realised my deeply seated 124 grain TC and the most recent Lee 148 grain Wadcutters are seated similar to the Nagant Military Surplus ammo. Like here: {Edit: Unfortunately, you may not copy images from another site to this forum without permission from the source. Please read the board policy on posting copyrighted materials.} I Attribute the ownership expressely to the below Webpage. Here you can appreciate the Nagant rounds. http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...roductId/24718 They are seated in an 38 spl case in an similar Fashion as These above Nagant Revolver rounds. Difference is just the caliber and my crimp is just undoing the mouth bell from the Expander die. In hard media like Wood the 148 grain Wadcutters allways expand to about the double of size (shot in an 357 Magnum SAA Revolver). They perform similar, penetrate similar and expand similar to the 9mm Luger loaded with 124 grain Truncated Cone TL lead bullet. But I recommend to Charge a Little more powder to get more Penetration for lead bullets or water quench the cast bullets. These WC and TC eighter in 9mm Luger or 38 spl cases I load to 3.5 grains od scavenged shotgun powder (till now I loaded them to 3.1 grains but Penetration is to less for me). Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; October 22, 2016 at 05:08 PM.

October 1, 2016, 04:55 PM	#52
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Dear John C, If I walk into my local gun shop and ask for 22 Hornet ammo what do you think they will tell me? What? What is that? Never heard! They even could call me "crazy". 410 shotshells are availlable as well 20 gauge. Just they ara as expensive or even in the case of 410 way more expensive than 12 ga Shells. AND ALL OF THEM HOLD LESS POWDER. That is the clue.

October 1, 2016, 04:59 PM	#53
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	John C What do you mean by wax bullet loads?

October 1, 2016, 05:09 PM	#54
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	TGOS; Just to note, I updated my previous post while you posting, so we may have crossed in the ether. Wax bullets are used for "indoor" practice (I don't recommend shooting them indoors, but you're on a farm). There are better instructions on the web, but basically you take an unprimed case and stick it in an approximately 1/2 thick block of soft paraffin wax. This cuts a caliber-diameter plug of paraffin in the case mouth. Take a dowel of the correct diameter and push the was plug to the bottom of the case. Then seat a primer. Load in your pistol and shoot. This will shoot the plug of wax at low velocity with reasonable accuracy to 25 feet or so. They're a blast to shoot! Keep in mind, prime the cases last. Otherwise the plug of was will compress the air in the case, and after a while the air will expand and push the wax plug back up to the case mouth. Also, don't use any powder. The higher pressure will make a mess of the wax. I have 50 cases that I use exclusively for wax bullets, and I used a drill to drill out the flash hole to a larger diameter to get more power directed into the case. Don't use drilled out cases for regular loads! Keep in mind that these wax bullets are still bullets, and use the same precautions when shooting, ie don't shoot these at anything you're not willing to destroy. They're not toys! It's still a firearm!

October 1, 2016, 06:05 PM	#56
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	John C, Wax bullets. I understand I take my scavenged 12 ga shotshells with the primer in and put a wad in and fill the case (wad Cup) with candle wax. Is that rigth? What use are These for?

October 1, 2016, 06:17 PM	#57
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	TGOS; No, don't do that. I have no experience with 12 gauge wax loads. Not that it can't be done, but it seems improbable. I guess I wasn't being clear, use .38 special cases with a 1/2 inch thick (or so) plug of stiff paraffin wax. Drill the flash holes out. My thought is that if you have the tools, ream out the flash holes on your .38 spl cases to take the 209 shotgun primers. These primers have a lot more power than small pistol primers. Google the subject; I'm sure much more detailed explanations will come up.

October 1, 2016, 08:53 PM	#58
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Ok John C, Understood. I manipulate 38 spl cases to fit 209 primers and use them as wax bullets. I am not going to do that since that far of manipulating ammo I will not go. Any advice for what to use for the empty but primed shotshells&wads is much welcome.

October 2, 2016, 01:46 AM	#59
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	You can use regular primers; they work just fine. But if you REALLY wanted to use every bit, you can modify a few cases to take 209 shotshell primers. Either way, you'll need to drill out the flash holes.