Is 5 Enough? - Page 3

Screwball · July 14, 2017, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dfariswheel

Plastic shot shells WILL deform in the tube.

Never said they wouldn't... just gave an example of ammo that was loaded for 13 months in my defensive shotgun that didn't.

I'll safely say that quality ammo, in a tube-fed shotgun that is in a common home defense role, will be fine from deformation for a least a year. While I posted that picture, I've been firing my defensive loads out of my shotgun yearly since 2009. I've unloaded the shells in the gun prior to taking it to the range, and never saw an issue with any shell. Hornady TAP (00) was what I originally loaded, then Winchester PDX1 (slug/00). The Remingtons (Low Recoil 00) in the Ithaca is more because I had them and being I wanted a separate shotgun that my girlfriend could train/depend on.

pete2 · July 15, 2017, 12:50 PM

You really need belt fed, 200 rounds minimum,

Model12Win · July 15, 2017, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete2

You really need belt fed, 200 rounds minimum,

Oh?

Bluecthomas · July 15, 2017, 10:32 PM

In any case with more than 5 targets, chances are they are grouped. The spreading a short barrel 12 with no choke has at just 20', combined with over penetration, I wouldn't want to be bad guy #6.

My primary hd is a 4+1, I leave the action partially open with +1 just out of the chamber. Pdx slug/00 buck mix as the load. 5 extra rounds in a holder on the stock.
Secondary long hd is a win 1200 28" with extension for 10 round capacity. It has standard 00 in it, but fires a much tighter grouping making the pdx total overkill.

JT-AR-MG42 · July 16, 2017, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Yes indeed, plastic shells WILL deform under the constant and heavy pressure of an extended magazine.

'Course, that's why I keep brass in mine. 6 + 1.

Herco with 11 gauge wads and OO buck. I trust my loads over any factory.

JT

Model12Win · July 17, 2017, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT-AR-MG42

'Course, that's why I keep brass in mine. 6 + 1.

Herco with 11 gauge wads and OO buck. I trust my loads over any factory.

JT

Is that a real U.S. property marked M12 trench gun?

If so, why in the hell would you use such a valuable gun for self defense?

JoeSixpack · July 17, 2017, 12:51 AM

Wow, love the solid brass hulls, where did you get them? I've only ever seen pictures of brass hulls loaded for black powder.

Model12Win · July 17, 2017, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

Wow, love the solid brass hulls, where did you get them? I've only ever seen pictures of brass hulls loaded for black powder.

Brass hulled shotshells were used from WW1 into Vietnam as the paper hulls used at the time swelled up and jammed the guns when exposed to moisture.

ARSG12 · July 18, 2017, 03:23 PM

My answer to the question, "Is 5 rounds enough?", I would say that if it's what you already have and want to know if it will most likely be enough to use in a defensive situation, I'd say "Yes", especially if you attached an elastic butt cuff shell carrier to your stock which would give you quick access to an additional 5 or 6 rounds if the opportunity came up to do a quick reload during a break in the situation.

However, if you don't already have such a shotgun and are looking to buy one specifically for defense, then it might be better to look for something that's higher capacity. Keep in mind however that higher capacity means having a longer magazine and barrel which would put a little more weight out front and make handling a bit different as a result. It might also mean having a barrel that is not threaded, making the shotgun not as versatile for other purposes.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 18, 2017, 06:03 PM

Denny Hansen, from SWAT - our sponsor - has an excellent article on HD shotgun usage and the usual BS that folks spout.

Buy the new issue and give it a read.

Targa · July 18, 2017, 07:27 PM

Could get one of the 14 shot Kel Tecs, that would cover it pretty well if your wanting more.

CalmerThanYou · July 18, 2017, 07:54 PM

The patina in that M12 is super nice.

Model12Win · July 18, 2017, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalmerThanYou

The patina in that M12 is super nice.

I'm sure it won't look super nice after it spends a few months/years in a police evidence locker if it is ever used for defense. Why risk an antique collectible WW2 shotgun?

Model12Win · July 18, 2017, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Denny Hansen, from SWAT - our sponsor - has an excellent article on HD shotgun usage and the usual BS that folks spout.

Buy the new issue and give it a read.

Very cool. Does he mention magazine capacity?

Glenn E. Meyer · July 19, 2017, 10:18 AM

Yes, he goes over why people think 5 is just fine because they won't miss, the rounds will be instantly effective and there won't be multiple attackers.

Oh, well.

Thus, he argues for more capacity and suggested the Aquila minishells with a gadget that makes them usable as some guns have problems with them.

He also debunks the old racking to scare them away mantra, the shot will spread to fill a room, etc.

It all boils down the core debate of the single attacker who goes away if you wave the gun at them, or you fire under stress the instantly effective one shot as compared to the more intense incident where it all goes to hell. That might be rarer but gun folks on the Internets seem to think the average means it always happens.

roashooter · July 19, 2017, 01:58 PM

Quote:

It all boils down the core debate of the single attacker who goes away if you wave the gun at them, or you fire under stress the instantly effective one shot as compared to the more intense incident where it all goes to hell. That might be rarer but gun folks on the Internets seem to think the average means it always happens.

fools on the internet are all convinced any shooting will be with multiple attackers....requiring many reloads/high capacity....

JoeSixpack · July 19, 2017, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roashooter

fools on the internet are all convinced any shooting will be with multiple attackers....requiring many reloads/high capacity....

Better to have it and not need it, Then need it and not have it.
BG's are braver in groups, Or do you believe anything but 1on1 encounters are rare?

B-Shot · July 19, 2017, 02:36 PM

Most revolvers are 5 shot.....5 rounds should be enough if it makes you feel happy and secure, if not add more rounds till you feel happy and secure.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · July 19, 2017, 03:48 PM

Couldn't afford a SPAS-12 so I reconfigured my 870 to serve the same purpose.

Walnut stocked 870 3" mag retrofitted with a {Rem 20" slug barrel having open barrel sights.}~~~ Its my dual purpose home & afield persuade'er.

Having_ Full_Slug(rifled)_&_ Open Cylinder chokes for the 870 allows the pump to do a little casual up-land bird hunting for me occasionally also.

Underneath the 870s 20" barrel a Choate 3 shot-shell extended magazine tube is screwed on. That's 8 rounds of Federal 00 Buck intended for those uninvited home invasion dummy's who are willing fools to confront such firepower.

"A compact in size scatter-gun that will assuredly ruin a bad guys day."

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...-12-gauge-blue

Glenn E. Meyer · July 19, 2017, 08:31 PM

If one looks at the expert reports, 30 to 40% of attacks, etc. have more than 1 criminal. 3 or more are not uncommon.

If you decide that you don't have to deal with such, then you are free to do so.

Of course, we know that that Denny is incorrect, and you will be dead-eyed and lethal with each shot.

A shotgun class or match with multiple targets is an eye opener if you do try such.

Model12Win · July 19, 2017, 08:32 PM

Would a 9-shot Mossberg M590A1 be more ideal for the job?

Glenn E. Meyer · July 19, 2017, 08:49 PM

I would say that for standard shotgun, that's pretty good.

8 to 9 rounds is reasonable. Yeah, you could to the trick double tube guns for more but then I would say, get a carbine.

Tom Givens had the concept of time in the fight. That means how long you can stay fighting before gun equipment issues take you out. Thus, the less capacity the quicker you are out of it. For a shotgun, with 5 - you are out pretty quick. Unless you are the person who hits every target with a stopper, you are out quick.

As I said, reloading under stress is fun. Givens had us do a drill with 4 people in a row. The first guy loaded one round and shot, the guy next to him had to load as he shot and so on down the line. As it reached the end of the line, the first guy had to load two and fire, the next guy loaded two as he fired, then three and four - by the time we got to four - it was tight and screwing up the load and rack was a real possibility.

Also, in another class - moving through a 'shoot house', why surprise - you could miss a real close target. Now how could that happen.

One hoot for double barrel fans at the NTI - you start in a smock which was to simulate being naked. You pick up a coach gun and a box of shell and a flashlight. You have to navigate your house with multiple bad guns - shoot, reload, light and hold on to everything. Remember you are naked, so to speak. It was fun. Shoot the gun, reload , forget that the safety came back on.

After shooting two targets, here's a surprise one popping out - so no rounds in the gun - it was close, so I butt stroked it. OK - having a carbine with 30 would be a better plan - in my mind.

Now, I wouldn't feel helpless with my Defender and 8 rounds but going for less, when more are possible - I just don't see it.

chardin · July 22, 2017, 01:44 PM

I don't care for the handling of shotguns with long, fully loaded magazine tubes. In my judgment, those would hurt my hit probability more than the extra rounds would help. Even with the short recovery time provided by gas operation, those missed shots are wastes of time and opportunity, and a risk to my neighbors.

I'd put more thought into patterning the shotgun and practicing with it than into the magazine capacity.

July 15, 2017, 10:32 PM	#54
Bluecthomas Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2017 Posts: 102	In any case with more than 5 targets, chances are they are grouped. The spreading a short barrel 12 with no choke has at just 20', combined with over penetration, I wouldn't want to be bad guy #6. My primary hd is a 4+1, I leave the action partially open with +1 just out of the chamber. Pdx slug/00 buck mix as the load. 5 extra rounds in a holder on the stock. Secondary long hd is a win 1200 28" with extension for 10 round capacity. It has standard 00 in it, but fires a much tighter grouping making the pdx total overkill. __________________ "We need a revolution every 200 years, because all governments become stale and corrupt after 200 years." Benjamin Franklin

July 18, 2017, 06:03 PM	#60
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Denny Hansen, from SWAT - our sponsor - has an excellent article on HD shotgun usage and the usual BS that folks spout. Buy the new issue and give it a read. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 19, 2017, 10:18 AM	#65
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Yes, he goes over why people think 5 is just fine because they won't miss, the rounds will be instantly effective and there won't be multiple attackers. Oh, well. Thus, he argues for more capacity and suggested the Aquila minishells with a gadget that makes them usable as some guns have problems with them. He also debunks the old racking to scare them away mantra, the shot will spread to fill a room, etc. It all boils down the core debate of the single attacker who goes away if you wave the gun at them, or you fire under stress the instantly effective one shot as compared to the more intense incident where it all goes to hell. That might be rarer but gun folks on the Internets seem to think the average means it always happens. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 19, 2017, 08:31 PM	#70
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	If one looks at the expert reports, 30 to 40% of attacks, etc. have more than 1 criminal. 3 or more are not uncommon. If you decide that you don't have to deal with such, then you are free to do so. Of course, we know that that Denny is incorrect, and you will be dead-eyed and lethal with each shot. A shotgun class or match with multiple targets is an eye opener if you do try such. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 19, 2017, 08:49 PM	#72
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I would say that for standard shotgun, that's pretty good. 8 to 9 rounds is reasonable. Yeah, you could to the trick double tube guns for more but then I would say, get a carbine. Tom Givens had the concept of time in the fight. That means how long you can stay fighting before gun equipment issues take you out. Thus, the less capacity the quicker you are out of it. For a shotgun, with 5 - you are out pretty quick. Unless you are the person who hits every target with a stopper, you are out quick. As I said, reloading under stress is fun. Givens had us do a drill with 4 people in a row. The first guy loaded one round and shot, the guy next to him had to load as he shot and so on down the line. As it reached the end of the line, the first guy had to load two and fire, the next guy loaded two as he fired, then three and four - by the time we got to four - it was tight and screwing up the load and rack was a real possibility. Also, in another class - moving through a 'shoot house', why surprise - you could miss a real close target. Now how could that happen. One hoot for double barrel fans at the NTI - you start in a smock which was to simulate being naked. You pick up a coach gun and a box of shell and a flashlight. You have to navigate your house with multiple bad guns - shoot, reload, light and hold on to everything. Remember you are naked, so to speak. It was fun. Shoot the gun, reload , forget that the safety came back on. After shooting two targets, here's a surprise one popping out - so no rounds in the gun - it was close, so I butt stroked it. OK - having a carbine with 30 would be a better plan - in my mind. Now, I wouldn't feel helpless with my Defender and 8 rounds but going for less, when more are possible - I just don't see it. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

View Poll Results: Is 4+1 enough capacity for a 12 gauge defensive shotgun?
Yes	40	74.07%
No	14	25.93%
Voters: 54. You may not vote on this poll

July 15, 2017, 12:50 PM	#52
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	You really need belt fed, 200 rounds minimum,

July 17, 2017, 12:51 AM	#57
JoeSixpack Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2017 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,048	Wow, love the solid brass hulls, where did you get them? I've only ever seen pictures of brass hulls loaded for black powder.

July 18, 2017, 03:23 PM	#59
ARSG12 Member Join Date: May 15, 2016 Posts: 54	My answer to the question, "Is 5 rounds enough?", I would say that if it's what you already have and want to know if it will most likely be enough to use in a defensive situation, I'd say "Yes", especially if you attached an elastic butt cuff shell carrier to your stock which would give you quick access to an additional 5 or 6 rounds if the opportunity came up to do a quick reload during a break in the situation. However, if you don't already have such a shotgun and are looking to buy one specifically for defense, then it might be better to look for something that's higher capacity. Keep in mind however that higher capacity means having a longer magazine and barrel which would put a little more weight out front and make handling a bit different as a result. It might also mean having a barrel that is not threaded, making the shotgun not as versatile for other purposes.

July 18, 2017, 07:27 PM	#61
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	Could get one of the 14 shot Kel Tecs, that would cover it pretty well if your wanting more.

July 18, 2017, 07:54 PM	#62
CalmerThanYou Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2017 Posts: 323	The patina in that M12 is super nice.

July 19, 2017, 02:36 PM	#68
B-Shot Member Join Date: October 25, 2016 Posts: 77	Most revolvers are 5 shot.....5 rounds should be enough if it makes you feel happy and secure, if not add more rounds till you feel happy and secure.

July 19, 2017, 03:48 PM	#69
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Couldn't afford a SPAS-12 so I reconfigured my 870 to serve the same purpose. Walnut stocked 870 3" mag retrofitted with a {Rem 20" slug barrel having open barrel sights.}~~~ Its my dual purpose home & afield persuade'er. Having_ Full_Slug(rifled)_&_ Open Cylinder chokes for the 870 allows the pump to do a little casual up-land bird hunting for me occasionally also. Underneath the 870s 20" barrel a Choate 3 shot-shell extended magazine tube is screwed on. That's 8 rounds of Federal 00 Buck intended for those uninvited home invasion dummy's who are willing fools to confront such firepower. "A compact in size scatter-gun that will assuredly ruin a bad guys day." https://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...-12-gauge-blue

July 19, 2017, 08:32 PM	#71
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Would a 9-shot Mossberg M590A1 be more ideal for the job?

July 22, 2017, 01:44 PM	#73
chardin Junior member Join Date: September 6, 2016 Posts: 38	I don't care for the handling of shotguns with long, fully loaded magazine tubes. In my judgment, those would hurt my hit probability more than the extra rounds would help. Even with the short recovery time provided by gas operation, those missed shots are wastes of time and opportunity, and a risk to my neighbors. I'd put more thought into patterning the shotgun and practicing with it than into the magazine capacity.

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