Military member buying gun on leave. Advice appreciated.

[bunoo2]

Hello all,

I'm in the Army and currently on leave in Florida from Japan.
I'm wanting to purchase a firearm but unsure of what proper paperwork that is needed to purchase one.

I have a Florida DL but my address is not the same as my address listed as my home of record. My home of record and everything is in Florida just a different address than my DL. I also have my PCS orders to Japan but it is to my understanding that I would need PCS orders to Florida to buy a firearm with just PCS orders and my military ID(CAC CARD)

My mother lives in Florida and that is who I stay with when in Florida. Her address is not my home of record though.
I believe the correct course of action would be to change my address on my drivers license to the proper address but I am unsure as to which address to put on the drivers license.

Thanks for any input.

[Spats McGee]

Welcome to TFL! I've moved your thread down to Law & Civil Rights. Unfortunately, I don't have the answer for you, but hopefully someone will be along to assist.

[Sharkbite]

I dont know Fl Regs but i can tell you how i did it in Co.

I changed my address with the DMV (online here) and wrote my new address on the back of my DL. Here in Colorado there is a space provided on the back for that purpose.

That was perfectly acceptable to 3 different gun shops AND my NFA dealer. However 1 big box outdoor type store refused to accecpt that for the BG check. I had to update my hunting license with the new address to provide a "Govt issued" ID with my new address on it.

YMMV

[Doyle]

Is your military home of record the same as your Mom's address? If so, I would change my DL to that address. That makes everything nice and tidy.

[Chaz88]

When I was active duty I used my Colorado license to buy a couple of guns when I was home on leave. The shop owner called someone to make sure it was alright to sell to me.

That was a long time ago, things might have changed. When I lived in Florida they were military and gun friendly, reading the FL law and talking to a dealer might help sort it out for you.

[2ndsojourn]

How would anyone know your home of record is different than what's on your drivers license?

[bunoo2]

Thanks for the input guys.

I went and talked to one of the FFL's in the area and he was saying unless I lived in Florida permanently, I wouldn't be able to purchase a firearm. I told him that my home of address is in Florida, henceforth why I don't pay state taxes due to being a resident of Florida.
He said that still didn't matter, I'm not a resident unless I'm here permanently.
I don't believe he was correct in that so I thanked him for the input and was on my way.

I went to another and they were telling me I was good to go as long as I had a Florida drivers license. Just put my new address on the form. I feel like that was a little sketchy. I've tried to read as much as I can on this before posting or asking and I believe what he is stating is incorrect due to what I've been reading.

As for the home of record being the same as my mothers address, that's a no.
I moved around a lot so when I enlisted, it was at a different residence than where she lives now.

[rwilson452]

As I recall your military home of record doesn't mean anything for this. If you stay with mom when on leave change your DL to that address. Where will the firearm be stored? I'm rather certain you not going to take it to Japan with you.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by bunoo2

I went and talked to one of the FFL's in the area and he was saying unless I lived in Florida permanently, I wouldn't be able to purchase a firearm. I told him that my home of address is in Florida, henceforth why I don't pay state taxes due to being a resident of Florida.
He said that still didn't matter, I'm not a resident unless I'm here permanently.
I don't believe he was correct in that so I thanked him for the input and was on my way.

Federal law as it pertains to gun purchases says that your state of residence is where you make a home (or intend to make a home). If you're just visiting, that's not your state of residence. If you have an ID that says you live in that state, but you don't actually have a residence there (or intend to have a residence there), then technically you can't use that address on the 4473.

When you move to a new state, you're a resident of that state the moment you set foot in it with the intent of living there. And you can have homes in multiple states; when you're physically living on one of those states where you have a residence (or intend to have a residence), then you're a resident of that state. And when you're in another state where you have a residence (or intend to have a residence), you're a resident of that state. But if you're just visiting another state, that's not your state of residence, no matter what it might say on your drivers license.

Here's a post by Frank Ettin regarding residency as it pertains to buying a firearm:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

For the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968, "State of residence" is defined as (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):

Lawyers prove intent all the time using circumstantial evidence from which one's intentions are inferable. For example, if one is moving to a State with an intention to make that State his home, one would expect him to (1) buy a house or enter into a lease on an apartment; (2) get a driver's license and register his car in that State; (3) change his address to that State for all purposes: (4) open a bank account at a local bank in that State; (5) look for a job in that State (unless retired); (6) move all, or substantially all, his belongings; and (7) generally do all things one would normally do when settling into a new home.

If one claims to be a new resident of a State and hasn't done such things, a federal prosecutor, a federal grand jury, and the jury at his trial for violating the GCA68 rules on interstate transfer of firearms, would be permitted and likely to infer that his claim is a sham.

Now, the question is if you're visiting your parents on leave does that count as a residence? I'm inclined to say no, but that's really a question for a lawyer.

[raimius]

It is not about home of record, but your state of legal residence. Generally, it is what you claim on taxes, but the specific rules are more complex, especially with military residency exceptions.

If your LES states Florida as your residency state and you have a FL driver's license, that is most likely your state of residence.

...that said, I am not a lawyer, so that advice is worth what you paid for.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by bunoo2

As for the home of record being the same as my mothers address, that's a no.
I moved around a lot so when I enlisted, it was at a different residence than where she lives now.

Perhaps I've missed it, but it seems to me there's something missing here.

Your driver's license shows an address that's different from your military home of record. Your military home of record is not your mother's address. What ARE those two addresses? Do you actually have any connection to either of them, now -- today? If you can't go to the place that's on your driver's license or shown as your home of record and walk in the front door -- I respectfully submit that something is wrong. You need to get your documentation straightened out.

[jnichols2]

bunoo2/Aguilla,

Perhaps my 30 years in the Air Force can help you.

There are three addresses to think about, all three can be different.

1. Military Home of Record
This address is of interest only to the military.
It is used primarily to determine travel pay and shipment of goods when you leave the military.
In most cases, it never changes.
The FFL has no need to know this address. It's none of his/her business.

2. State of Residence
This is tied to a State, not a particular address.
You must be a Florida Resident to buy a hand gun in the state of Florida.
You seem to have clearly shown your Florida residence.

3. Your current address
This is where you currently live and sleep (while in Florida).
This address is what must be on your drivers license in most states.
A FFL has to be careful, he can be charged or lose his license if not.
He/she will always require the drivers license have your current address.
This is not necessarily Federal law, but I would do business the same way.

Note: Showing your orders to Japan is irrelevant. It would only confuse.
Being stationed in Japan is a temporary movement of military station. It does not normally change ANY of the three above adresses (unless you like it a lot, and decide to make it your new permanent residence.

I AM NOT A LAWYER !! But I do have expertise in what Military Home of Record is. Also; 14 moves in 30 years helps a body learn about "Current Address" and "State of Residence"

As you stated that your Mother's address is the one on your drivers license, you should be just fine. That certainly seems to be your "Current Address". Don't tell the FFL things that will only confuse him/her.

[dogtown tom]

bunoo2 ...I have a Florida DL but my address is not the same as my address listed as my home of record. My home of record and everything is in Florida just a different address than my DL. I also have my PCS orders to Japan but it is to my understanding that I would need PCS orders to Florida to buy a firearm with just PCS orders and my military ID(CAC CARD)

You would actually have to be living in FL, to claim it as your state of residence. https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

My mother lives in Florida and that is who I stay with when in Florida. Her address is not my home of record though.

"Home of record" has nothing to do with "state of residence" for the purposes of acquiring a firearm.

Doyle Is your military home of record the same as your Mom's address? If so, I would change my DL to that address. That makes everything nice and tidy.

"Nice and tidy" is a felony unless you are actually making your mom's address your home.

2ndsojourn How would anyone know your home of record is different than what's on your drivers license?

Home of record is irrelevant when acquiring a firearm.....no one cares about home of record but the military. What DOES matter is where the buyer actually makes his home...........and that's in Japan. If he is in Florida with the intention of making it his home he could claim FL but would need gov issued photo ID showing his name and that current residence address in FL.

bunoo2 ....I went and talked to one of the FFL's in the area and he was saying unless I lived in Florida permanently, I wouldn't be able to purchase a firearm. I told him that my home of address is in Florida, henceforth why I don't pay state taxes due to being a resident of Florida.
He said that still didn't matter, I'm not a resident unless I'm here permanently.
I don't believe he was correct in that so I thanked him for the input and was on my way.

That FFL is an idiot.

I went to another and they were telling me I was good to go as long as I had a Florida drivers license. Just put my new address on the form. I feel like that was a little sketchy.

Simply having a FL ID doesn't make you a resident of FL. You are correct, it's sketchy.

raimius It is not about home of record, but your state of legal residence. Generally, it is what you claim on taxes, but the specific rules are more complex, especially with military residency exceptions.

If your LES states Florida as your residency state and you have a FL driver's license, that is most likely your state of residence.

100% wrong....and the post directly above your says why you are 100% wrong.

jnichols2 .....Perhaps my 30 years in the Air Force can help you.

There are three addresses to think about, all three can be different.

All three DON'T MATTER ONE BIT!!!!!!

.......2. State of Residence
This is tied to a State, not a particular address.
You must be a Florida Resident to buy a hand gun in the state of Florida.
You seem to have clearly shown your Florida residence.

Really?
He doesn't have a Florida address because he doesn't live in Florida! He's visiting his mom!

3. Your current address
This is where you currently live and sleep (while in Florida).
This address is what must be on your drivers license in most states.
A FFL has to be careful, he can be charged or lose his license if not.
He/she will always require the drivers license have your current address.
This is not necessarily Federal law, but I would do business the same way.

Wrong, any dealer who has taken twenty minutes to actually read the Form 4473 will know that there is no requirement for the drivers license to have the buyers current address. ATF even gives explicit instructions on what alternate government issued documentation is acceptable when the current address doesn't match what is on the ID.

I AM NOT A LAWYER !! But I do have expertise in what Military Home of Record is. Also; 14 moves in 30 years helps a body learn about "Current Address" and "State of Residence"

I heartily disagree that you understand what current address and state of residence mean.

As you stated that your Mother's address is the one on your drivers license, you should be just fine. That certainly seems to be your "Current Address". Don't tell the FFL things that will only confuse him/her.

Simply visiting his mom does not make her home his current residence address.

[raimius]

Dogtown Tom, then which state is he a resident of?

Being stationed overseas does not obliterate a military member's US residency. We can still vote, pay taxes, and buy firearms. (Although I would strongly caution the OP about rules for moving firearms internationally.)

[jnichols2]

Dogtown,

There's a time to keep shut...

He is not legally "visiting his mom".

Military personnel stationed in another state, oroverseas retain their prior residency. Japan never was his residence. They were given that protection by the "Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act".

If he decides to change his residence to another state, he will have to physically go there and take up residence. But he can retain his original Florida residence as long as he remains in the service.

A drivers license and paying state taxes are the two most powerful evidences of residency.

[Doyle]

DogtownTom, they are right. US military members ARE allowed to keep their original residency in their home state. Military service is treated as a temporary absence.

[Theohazard]

Tom is right. The rest of you are providing bad information that is extremely irresponsible. You're basically encouraging the OP to commit a possible felony.

It doesn't matter what his military home of record is. It doesn't matter what his state of residence is for the purpose of voting. It doesn't matter what his state of residence is for the purpose of paying taxes. All that matters is what his state of residence is for the purpose of buying firearms per the Gun Control Act of 1968. That's it.

Originally Posted by raimius

Dogtown Tom, then which state is he a resident of?

For the purpose of buying firearms, he doesn't appear to be a resident of any state. He can only buy a firearm when he actually resides inside the US.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

Dogtown,

There's a time to keep shut...

Nope. He's right, you're the one who needs to "keep shut"; you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You might understand residency as it applies to other things, but you obviously don't understand residency as it applies to buying a firearm.

Originally Posted by Doyle

DogtownTom, they are right. US military members ARE allowed to keep their original residency in their home state. Military service is treated as a temporary absence.

No. Again, Tom is right. We're not talking about residence as it apply to anything but buying a firearm. And for the purpose of buying a firearm per the Gun Control Act of 1968, he doesn't appear to be a resident of any state.

[Doyle]

I'm going to reverse my previous position on this. After seeing what Theohazard wrote I did some further research and found out the ATF issued a ruling back in 2001 to state that for the purposes of the GCA of 1968 (as amended by the Brady Bill) establishes residency of a service member as the state where his PCS orders place him.

There are 2 exceptions to that (also noted in ATF rulings). The first is when PCS orders place him in one state and he actually lives just across the state line and commutes to work. The other is when he is out of the country. Neither applied in the OPs case.

Theohazard was right in that "residency" has different meanings depending on the purpose. For example, with voting - not the same as for firearms purchase.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Theohazard

Tom is right. The rest of you are providing bad information that is extremely irresponsible. You're basically encouraging the OP to commit a possible felony....

A valuable insight.

I notice that not a single one of those other folks spouting off about the law has bothered to do any actual research or cite any actual law. Specifically, no one but you bothered to cite (in post 9) the definition of "State of residence" in the ATF regulations applicable to the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

...I AM NOT A LAWYER !!...

That's obvious. I, however, am a lawyer.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

....But I do have expertise in what Military Home of Record is. Also; 14 moves in 30 years helps a body learn about "Current Address" and "State of Residence"....

Which is worth exactly squat unless you can cite some legal authority to back you up.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

....As you stated that your Mother's address is the one on your drivers license, you should be just fine....

How do you know? Cite your legal authority.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

....A drivers license and paying state taxes are the two most powerful evidences of residency.

Again, cite legal authority supporting your contentions.

And with regard to taxes, I am legally required because of investments to file state income tax returns in States I've never even been to. So how is my paying taxes in those States evidence that I'm a resident?

Originally Posted by jnichols2

...Military personnel stationed in another state, oroverseas retain their prior residency. Japan never was his residence. They were given that protection by the "Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act"....

Exactly where in that law (Chapter 50 of Title 50 of the United States Code), or a federal court decision applying that law, does it say anything of the sort?

[jnichols2]

With all respect, you are ALL getting so buried in legal speak that you are totally missing what the OP is asking about his "current address" under federal and military law.

The OP entered the military from his home state of Florida.
He was, and still is, a resident of Florida.
He wishes to buy a handgun in his home state of Florida.
His concern is about the address on his Florida drivers licence.

I answered his question correctly, and am the only one on this thread that knew the answer.

I know you are a lawyer Frank, but it shows that you are not one with training in military affairs and residency. As an Air Force Chief Master Sergeant I received several years of training in this area.

His drivers license bears the address that he and his mother lived when he entered the service.

He never changed his residence to any other state or country.
IAW the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act, 50 U.S. Code § 4001 - Residence for tax purposes, he is not forced to give up, or abdicate, that residence.

I advised the OP that he appears to be a Florida resident who maintains the current address listed on his drivers license.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by jnichols2

....you are ALL getting so buried in legal speak that you are totally missing what the OP is asking about his "current address" under federal and military law....

And you are simply being ignorant. The issue here is the OP's State of residence under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (which is defined at 27 CFR 478.11, see post 9). That governs his eligibility to buy a gun in a State. His "current address" under military law has nothing to do with the question.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

...I answered his question correctly, and am the only one on this thread that knew the answer. ...

Whatever answer you think you know, that answer has nothing to do with the issue of one's State of residence for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

...I know you are a lawyer Frank, but it shows that you are not one with training in military affairs and residency. As an Air Force Chief Master Sergeant I received several years of training in this area....

You obviously received no training in federal firearms law, specifically the Gun Control Act of 1968 and laws relating to the transfer of firearms.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

...IAW the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act, 50 U.S. Code § 4001 - Residence for tax purposes, he is not forced to give up, or abdicate, that residence...

No, 50 USC 4001 specifically and only addresses a service member's residence for tax purposes. On the statute's face it has no application to the question of a service member's residence for any other purpose whatsoever. If you disagree, cite a ruling of a federal court of appeal supporting your contention.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

....I advised the OP that he appears to be a Florida resident who maintains the current address listed on his drivers license.

Insofar as you purported to give advice on the OP's eligibility to buy a gun, you gave advice well outside the limits of your qualifications.

[dogtown tom]

Frank covered it.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by jnichols2

With all respect, you are ALL getting so buried in legal speak that you are totally missing what the OP is asking about his "current address" under federal and military law.

No. The law as it pertains to residency when buying firearms is very simple. You're the one who is getting buried in legal speak. Go back and read post #9.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

I answered his question correctly, and am the only one on this thread that knew the answer.

No. Again, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You can spout off about residency as it applies to the military all you want, but none of that applies here. All that matters is how the law defines residency as it applies to buying a firearm. I'll quote the relevant part of federal law yet again: For the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968, "State of residence" is defined as (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b)....

And, here's the link that Tom posted previously; it's ATF Ruling 2010-6:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55496/download

And here's an excerpt from that ruling (you may want to pay special attention to the parts I emphasized):

For the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.
[...]
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.

The OP has indicated that he is just visiting his mother in Florida. So if he doesn't make a home (or intend to make a home) in Florida, he can't claim Florida as his state of residence on the 4473. Again, it doesn't matter what other areas of the law defines his state of residence as, all that matters is what his state of residence is for the purpose of buying a firearm.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

He never changed his residence to any other state or country.
IAW the Soldiers and Sailors Relief Act, 50 U.S. Code § 4001 - Residence for tax purposes, he is not forced to give up, or abdicate, that residence.

The moment he left Florida and no longer intended to make a home there, he was no longer a resident of Florida when it comes to federal law regarding the purpose of buying a firearm. It doesn't matter if he's still a Florida resident for other purposes such as voting, tax records, military home of record or the like; all that matters here is the law as it pertains to buying a firearm.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

I know you are a lawyer Frank, but it shows that you are not one with training in military affairs and residency. As an Air Force Chief Master Sergeant I received several years of training in this area.

And you obviously have no training when it comes to the residency requirements for buying a firearm. Those requirements are different than the ones you're referring to.

Originally Posted by jnichols2

I advised the OP that he appears to be a Florida resident who maintains the current address listed on his drivers license.

And you are wrong. At this point you're being tremendously irresponsible. Through your utter ignorance of firearms laws and regulations, you're essentially encouraging the OP to commit a felony. Please stop.

[Theohazard]

Never mind, Frank beat me to it. I guess I need to learn to type faster .

[jnichols2]

Nice try Frank.

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
For the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968, "State of residence" is defined as (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):
Quote:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b)....

The OP is now present in the state of Florida, and has had the intention of REMAINING a Florida resident. He IS NOT seeking to newly become one.

His military station in Japan is a temporary absence, not a change of residency. By your edict, that would also deprive him of the right to vote.

It's lawyers like you that drove the Soldiers and Sailers Relief Act (common name) protection in the first place

The paragraph you cited was intended to prevent military personnel from buying a handgun in a state where they are NOT a resident. Any first year student would know that.

In your first comments to me, I overlooked your holier than thou denigrating comments. I am now replying to what was your second chance. Now, you are simply showing yourself to be a bit supercilious.

Brush up on both your legal and social skills, and you may find better work than passing out advice on an internet forum.

Also; I never "purported to give advice on the OP's eligibility to buy a gun", I advised him as to the address on his drivers license.

You are in over your head on this, and I fully agree with the Baird's advice.