The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 30, 2017, 09:27 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
NYPD and no more revolvers

I had to close down a previous thread on police revolvers due to an individual acting poorly. However, the issue is still of interest. Thus here's an action by NYPD:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ast-revolvers/

The wheel gun is out.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 10:06 AM   #2
vba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2008
Posts: 357
Kind of sad actually. A good revolver especially in the hands of new recruits or non-shooters has many benefits over semi-autos.
vba is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 12:01 PM   #3
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
Trading blued steel and walnut for tactical plastic. Like trading Raquel Welch in her prime for Miley Cyrus. Or Prime Rib for a Veggie Burger. UGgg! I wonder how many of the retired NYPD officers are still packing six shooters?

Last edited by shurshot; November 30, 2017 at 12:39 PM.
shurshot is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 12:34 PM   #4
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
With no disrespect to those who carry revolvers, I am surprised that NYC PD hasn't made the change long before now. A sworn officer carrying a revolver in today's world makes no sense to me. While I am still a fan of "blued steel and walnut" a revolver in any role other than a backup for a cop, especially in an urban environment, is an anachronism in my opinion.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin
K_Mac is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 01:10 PM   #5
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
All of it is about budgets and very little to do with anything else. NYPD's weapons techs would no longer have or be able to get parts for revolvers. No money for that.
"...in the hands of new recruits..." Nope. It's easier to train a complete neophyte(that most recruits are) to shoot a pistol well than it is a revolver. Especially when the revolver's trigger is so heavy and there are no sights. Don't imagine NYPD's rules were any different than Toronto PD's was. Only thing they could change on their issue revolver was the grips. Absolutely no internal work of any kind was permitted.
Doesn't matter what a retired cop does. That'd be on his own nickel.
Raquel's leg is bigger than Miley Cyrus. snicker.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 03:02 PM   #6
ammo.crafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,967
NYPD revolvers

I remember those old S&W model 10s and it was so easy to slick them up.

Times have changes and LEOs carrying revolvers would be at a great disadvantage in today's world.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson
ammo.crafter is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 03:31 PM   #7
DM357
Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2017
Posts: 44
It's understandable. I love my revolvers and I think they are excellent weapons that are still relevant. However, when your job is to actually go into trouble and not just defend yourself from it, things change. I would not choose a six shot .357 or even a .44 if I'm patrolling a neighborhood like West Englewood in Chicago. I'm betting the officers of the NYPD feel the same about some of their neighborhoods.
DM357 is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 05:09 PM   #8
hgmeyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2013
Location: Elgin, IL
Posts: 147
I am a former LEO and carried both, a Mel 19 S&W and then a 1911 Colt. There were high capacity 9mm available Hi-powers and Mdl 59 S&W. They held no attraction for me. My belief was that a well placed shot with a powerful cartridge was the best choice I could make. Magazine capacity and fast reloads were not a first priority, single stack or speed loaders were sufficient. The key was "A well placed shot". Constant practice and training, then and now, is the absolute necessity. "Noises 14 or 6 defeat no threat. I understand all of the theory behind a striker fired hi-cap 9mm. I call BS on a lot of the narrative. LEOs need to be "pistoleros", because it is a skill necessary to the job. Because current management was not trained to that concept, "old timers" like Bill Jordan aren't followed.

Every LEO should feel that their handgun is a part of their hand. But, that requires a level of training that makes current management uncomfortable. Guns are just not viewed positively by them and the politicians. And, training and practice is expensive.

A good revolver in the hands of a "pistoleros is a whole lot more potent than a 17 round whiz bang 9mm in the hands of some LEO who barely "qualifies" and has only minimal skills.
hgmeyer is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 06:01 PM   #9
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,114
Don't feel too bad, or get too romantic and wistful, the vast bulk of NYPD officers have not used wheelguns since the mid 1990s. That's when they mandated that officers transition to 9mm pistols beginning in 1994. Only those officers who had been on the job prior to 1994 could retain their revolvers. Anyone hired since then had no choice as a main. That's 23 years ago. NYPD was late to that show.

So if you began there in 1994 or later you had to have a semi as your main. You could have a revolver as a backup or off duty piece though. They will still be able to use a revolver as an off duty piece.

That's not many officers left who have been carrying a revolver as their main.

Quote:
In May 1926 the NYPD adopted the .38 Special cartridge as the standard issue ammunition for the department and started issuing its officers the Smith & Wesson Model 10 revolver and the Colt Official Police revolver. In 1994 the NYPD replaced the revolver as its main service weapon and adopted the 9mm semiautomatic pistol as its standard issued sidearm, replacing the .38 Special revolver. NYPD officers who were "on the job" on or prior to 1994 could continue to carry their revolvers if they wished. The .38 Special can still be found as a backup or off duty weapon, particularly with long serving personnel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ice_Department

Also of interest:

https://nypost.com/2016/11/28/nypd-v...t-better-guns/

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 06:56 PM   #10
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
Illinois Department of Corrections (IDOC) still rocks wheelers. This is my attempt to copy their rig:



They use Smith & Wesson Model 64s, basketweave black leather holsters, and speedloaders. I recently had the opportunity to witness some of their inmate transportation officers carrying these on a detail in Southern Illinois.

While the revolver isn't the best choice for a front line beat cop, they still have their place in lower threat law enforcement duties. They are also excellent civillian personal defenders.

Six for sure. Long live the wheel gun!
Model12Win is offline  
Old November 30, 2017, 10:13 PM   #11
DM357
Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2017
Posts: 44
That's a heck of a choice for a prison environment, though I'd prefer a .357 and load it with .38s if I needed to. There are some pretty mild shelf choices for the .357 that are still a wee bit more effective, especially with that barrel length. I love that holster choice, beauty and simplicity. What brand of pouch is that?
DM357 is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 03:12 AM   #12
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
Hgmeyer. I agree with you 100%. Higher Magazine capacity shouldn't replace skill and confidence gained through practice and familiarity. The vast majority of LEO's today have no idea who Bill Jordan was, or what skills he empathized, or how lightening fast that man was. I grew up reading his articles. His book "No Second Place Winner", first published in 1965, should be mandatory reading for anyone who carrys for self defense, regardless of the weapon they chose. I own and enjoy shooting numerous semiautomatics. I just don't trust them 100%. I have seen far too many semi auto jams on the qualifion ranges over the years to trust a semi as much as a revolver. Limp wristing / improper grip, ammo issues, improper lubrication, weather, faulty magazine issues and pressing the muzzle up against a hard object causing the slide to slightly disengage, etc. can and will cause semiautomatic pistols to malfunction. While revolvers are certainly not immune from malfunctioning, in my experience they are FAR less likely to do so if properly maintained. Off duty, I trust and carry a revolver.

Last edited by shurshot; December 1, 2017 at 03:36 AM.
shurshot is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 03:55 AM   #13
warnerwh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Posts: 329
Well I hope they sell them and not destroy them. Knowing N.Y. it wouldn't surprise me.
__________________
Portland, Or
warnerwh is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 07:02 AM   #14
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,869
Quote:
"...all [new autos] with 12# triggers...."
Small wonder that the NYPD oft-times hits more bystanders than bad guys...
mehavey is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 09:53 AM   #15
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
Hate to see it. I carried a revolver (Model 28) for most of my 20 years in LE. Later in my career they started allowing certain semis. I tried carrying a M1911, excellent pistol but it didnt suit my needs and I quickly went back to my trusty revolver.

This was Alaska, we dealt with a lot of large animal calls. Putting down moose at traffic accident. Guarding kids at school bus stops from bear/moose hanging around the area.

These critters need penetration which the 45 ACP just didnt have.

My 357 never let me down. I still shoot revolvers better then I do semis. Would have no problem carrying one in LE today.

Never felt outgunned.

Still remember from my Police Admin. collage classes my favorite line from O.W. Wilson's book, POLICE ADMINISTRATION.

"When picking a service revolver, it should be heavy, so's it can be use as a club if necessary"

He certainly had the old Highway Patrolman in mind when he made that statement.

Guess the classic old days of Heavy Revolvers and Hickory Nightsticks are gone forever.

Sad times indeed. At least my department let me keep my service revolver when I retired.

__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 01:43 PM   #16
rwilson452
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Tioga co. PA
Posts: 2,647
We had a young lady that attended last years, "Women on Target" class. she decided she wanted a .38 revolver. I offered to go with her to help. She wanted to do it herself. She came back a few days later asking for help as she couldn't get her dads ammo to fit in it. After I looked at this old gun. I determined it was chambered for .38 S&W not .38 Spl. FFL would not take it back.


The point being a lot of the NYPD don't know much about guns and only shoot when they are required to re-qualify. A lot of urban PD are in the same boat.

Back When I carried as a part of my profession I was burning up about 200 rounds a month. Half in a combat action setup and half bullseye.
__________________
USNRET '61-'81

Last edited by rwilson452; December 1, 2017 at 01:50 PM.
rwilson452 is offline  
Old December 1, 2017, 05:45 PM   #17
ZEBRARANGER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 6, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
Hate to see it. I carried a revolver (Model 28) for most of my 20 years in LE. Later in my career they started allowing certain semis. I tried carrying a M1911, excellent pistol but it didnt suit my needs and I quickly went back to my trusty revolver.

This was Alaska, we dealt with a lot of large animal calls. Putting down moose at traffic accident. Guarding kids at school bus stops from bear/moose hanging around the area.

These critters need penetration which the 45 ACP just didnt have.

My 357 never let me down. I still shoot revolvers better then I do semis. Would have no problem carrying one in LE today.

Never felt outgunned.

Still remember from my Police Admin. collage classes my favorite line from O.W. Wilson's book, POLICE ADMINISTRATION.

"When picking a service revolver, it should be heavy, so's it can be use as a club if necessary"

He certainly had the old Highway Patrolman in mind when he made that statement.

Guess the classic old days of Heavy Revolvers and Hickory Nightsticks are gone forever.

Sad times indeed. At least my department let me keep my service revolver when I retired.

Nice gear photo Kraig.
ZEBRARANGER is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 12:19 AM   #18
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,295
Cue the video from the infamous Empire State Building shooting!

IDOC might still have revolvers, but Arizona DOC ditched the Ruger Service Six about 16 years ago for the Glock 19. Some clearing barrels still have instructions for clearing the revolver on the sign, but the only wheelguns coming on the complex are those carried personally by staff.
armoredman is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 04:59 AM   #19
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 8,273
scores

Been my experience that the 9mm semiauto pistols, I'd hazzard of nearly any brand, would be easier to train the broad spectrum of LE cadets these days, as opposed to the DA revolver. The DA trigger pull requires a bit of hand strength, and some folks, (in my experience it was the ladies) sometimes did not have that. We issued "half guns" at FLETC, DA revolvers with the barrels and cylinders removed, but tweaked to allow the DA pul, and instructed folks so challenged, to work on their hand strength to cycle those devices when ever possible.

When my agency switched to the auto pistol, scores across the board, went up.
Working a semi takes more savvy, the manual of arms is more complex, and you are buying into increased maintenance, but I believe semis are far easier to shoot.
bamaranger is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 06:41 AM   #20
Jeff22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 715
the revolver era ends at NYPD

I believe that NYPD officers buy their sidearms themselves.

Way back when it was a Smith & Wesson model 10 or a Colt Police Positive. Then it was the S&W 64 and the Ruger Speed Six.

Agencies around here began converting from revolvers to auto pistols about 1988. The training took three days and about 750 rounds.

If my choices were a Glock with a NY + trigger spring or a DAO Sig, I'm not sure what my selection would be. I have a lot of experience with the DA/SA Sig and the DAK Sig but I don't think I've ever shot one of the DAO versions.

The DAO thing was never popular around here. Just as well.

Early in my career I carried a S&W 15 Combat Masterpiece. I love those guns and still shoot mine sometimes, but I have always preferred auto pistols for service use.

However, one advantage with a revolver was that you could easily change the grips to fit the shooter's hands. I first started teaching in the police academy in 1988, and there were still a fair number of recruits coming through with revolvers for a few years. If somebody had small hands, we'd get them a set of Pachmayr "Professional" grips with the exposed backstrap, which usually reduced the reach to the face of the trigger enough.

Shooters with small hands often struggle with a double column auto pistol.
__________________
You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!
Jeff22 is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 07:28 AM   #21
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,869
Quote:
Cue the video from the infamous Empire State Building shooting!
EMPIRE STATE BLDG SHOOTING
mehavey is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 09:23 AM   #22
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,824
Kraigwyy - Hoyt holster? That's what I used for five years.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old December 2, 2017, 08:58 PM   #23
madmike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 2000
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 559
I suspect this was largely a formality in case any are still lurking in the admin staff desks. Also, hammerless 12# DAOs (as required by policy) are hardly desirable surplus, other than as curiosities.
__________________
FORGED IN BLOOD, (editor), Sept 2017, Baen Books
THE TIDE OF BATTLE, July 2018, Baen Books
http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com
http://www.SharpPointyThings.com
madmike is offline  
Old December 3, 2017, 01:11 PM   #24
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
"Spray and Pray" by NYPD?

Let's not have speculative discussion about how the NYPD performs in shooting or gun handling.

The NYPD keeps extensive records on the subject and publishes an Annual Firearms Discharge Report. We therefore have data, and speculation isn't necessary or useful.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old December 3, 2017, 01:29 PM   #25
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 4,114
Annual records for a number of police depts. are available from those departments, NYPD, LAPD, etc. They are worthwhile studies and deserve to be read.

It's not useful, IMHO, to mock these agencies in regard to this.

Anyway only a small number of NYPD officers still had revolvers as a primary and those were grandfathered in only for those on the job before 1994. This will mostly effect those carrying them as backups.

tipoc
__________________
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot.
4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
tipoc is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12421 seconds with 8 queries