In the extremely unlikely event... - Page 2

raimius · November 23, 2015, 04:33 PM

Yes, impacts can be painful, and even do some damage...sometimes.
Handgun rounds, even against non-armored targets have a relatively low chance of instant incapacitation. To assume that the impact of a handgun bullet against a vest (much less a plate) would instantly knock a determined fighter out of the battle is simply foolish, and unsupported by available evidence.

BlueTrain · November 24, 2015, 07:03 AM

When I was using the term "knockdown power," I was not saying it to imply that the force of the projectile will knock someone off their feet and thrown backwards. That would never happen unless the projectile were very large and moving at a relatively slow speed like, say, a bowling ball. I merely mean that the person receiving a hit or a blow will simply go down. It does not mean they will stay down. It does not mean they are incapacitated, no more than momentarily. It just means they are down, like what happens to a boxer when he is knocked down.

In regards to shootings, if the target (the person being shot at) is behind cover, it is likely that the head will be the part exposed more than anything else. A hit to the top of the head, or for that matter, a blow with a blunt object, will generally cause the person to go down. They may get back up right away but that's all I mean when I use the term. And naturally, results are not guaranteed. The same thing happens to animals sometimes with hits almost anywhere. But animals are not people.

**OldMarksman** · November 24, 2015, 12:14 PM

Posted by BlueTrain:

Quote:

I merely mean that the person receiving a hit or a blow will simply go down.

What keeps the shooter from going down?

manta49 · November 24, 2015, 03:18 PM

Quote:

It does not mean they will stay down. It does not mean they are incapacitated, no more than momentarily. It just means they are down, like what happens to a boxer when he is knocked down.

People have had multiple hits no vest , and did not go down and continued fighting.

Tactical Jackalope · November 24, 2015, 03:28 PM

Quote:

I know saying that folks should train offends some but practicing a failure to stop drill is worth it.

Shoooting a rock at the ranch and being trained by "Daddy" may not be sufficient if you are serious.

LOL... I lost it when I read this.

BlueTrain · November 24, 2015, 03:31 PM

And naturally, results are not guaranteed.

Hasn't anyone here ever been knocked down? I have. But I've also received blows on my head that required stitches and I didn't go down, although I bled like crazy.

Results are always unpredictable because people are so different. Some people, mostly men, I assume, are used to being hit. Others might go into shock at something that wouldn't even faze someone else. They give decorations to men who keep fighting. They just give Purple Hearts to the others. The only thing common to all of them is a temporary lack of good luck.

hub1home · November 24, 2015, 03:47 PM

I carry FMJ 230 Grain hardball in my Ultra Carry. I don't use jacketed because I just don't trust it 100% in functioning correctly. This, I have practiced aiming for the head but I wouldn't hesitated to shoot for the body if that was the better target.

johnwilliamson062 · November 24, 2015, 07:18 PM

I used to think a hit to the body armor was disabling like you see in the movies.

In actual use I have never heard of, seen video of, or anything else of someone going down when hit with a handgun round in even soft body armor that caught the bullet. I have seen videos of guys getting hit with rifle rounds, going down as if sucker punched, and immediately getting back up.
This video of a US soldier being shot is probably the best known. As soon as he figures out what is happening he is back on his feet and moving. He probably got hit in a trauma plate, but that was also a rifle round. A terrorist with armor would likely have a trauma plate anyways I think it was reported as X39.

ISIS etc. don't have armor in the middle east when they are going into combat daily and hoping to live through it.
pelvic girdle.

BlueTrain · November 25, 2015, 06:40 AM

What you have just described is exactly what I mean by knockdown power.

Just remember that Fairbairn wrote that the more he studied the question of knockdown power (which would have been in the 1930s), the less certain he was of anything. Anyway, it should not be confused with lethality.

For what it's worth, in none of the combat videos one sees on YouTube of fighting in the Middle East, particularly in Syria, almost no one is wearing any armor, not even helmets, and they are otherwise always lightly equipped. Also, one almost never sees anything but AK rifles and carbines, PK or PKM machine guns and the various Eastern Bloc sniper rifles in the way of small arms. There may be SKS rifles, Mausers, Enfields or Stg44s around but they never show up in videos. It does, however, make you wonder how all those people get their weapons and ammunition, especially the more sophisticated guided missiles.

**OldMarksman** · November 25, 2015, 08:19 AM

Someone here never took Physics 101.

The folks here mention energy. They should be discussing momentum.

Same result, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZPusyLeMA

NateKirk · November 25, 2015, 10:46 AM

If faced with an attacker wearing body armor I would most likely shoot for the head or legs after finding cover, as my little .380 isn't going to do much against the armor. Changing your carry ammo to account for this EXTREMELY unlikely scenario would be a bad idea IMO.

BlueTrain · November 25, 2015, 11:26 AM

Chances are, you'd never know if he was wearing body armor in the first place. If you could tell just by looking, it would probably be too late.

Fivesense · November 25, 2015, 11:53 AM

Given that many people have discussed carrying extra magazines in the wake of the Paris attacks, one could always consider carrying a mag filled (partly or all the way) with armor-piercing rounds.

Sharkbite · November 25, 2015, 11:58 AM

Folks hit in soft armor with handgun rounds RARELY exhibit any reaction to the hit

Here are 2 examples i am personally acquainted with. Both in LA, both Brinks guards involved in Robberies i had the "pleasure" of responding to. Both guys hit with handguns in soft armor

1. Just outside the USC campus, guy was hit in the back just over a kidney with a 44mag JSP. He was wearing a 3a vest. Didnt go down. Turned and returned fire. Was taken to the hospital and released later that same day. I heard he was passing blood for a cpl days but it didnt slow him down during the response.

2 Just south of LA, another armored car guard was hit in the chest while engaging 3 badguys. The hit was with a 380acp FMJ bullet. Vest was a Safariland multi-flex level 2 vest with soft trama plates. The hit was center chest just right of the second button, striking the soft trama plate.

This guy didnt even know he was hit until someone asked him about the hole in his shirt. The shirt came off and there is a bullet stuck in his vest. He got a little weak in the knees seeing that, but the hit had ZERO effect on his ability to fight.

There are tons of vest saves recorded around the world and VERY few report being "knocked down".

If you want to see the effect in action. Hang a heavy (punching) bag (~70lbs) and put a vest over it. Shoot the vest. Observe how little the bag moved. Thats only 70lbs. Now put that vest on a 170-200lb man and explain HOW be gets knocked down by that small amount of energy.

Sharkbite · November 25, 2015, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Given that many people have discussed carrying extra magazines in the wake of the Paris attacks, one could always consider carrying a mag filled (partly or all the way) with armor-piercing rounds.

Except AP pistol rounds are ILLEGAL in the USA....

AK103K · November 25, 2015, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Chances are, you'd never know if he was wearing body armor in the first place. If you could tell just by looking, it would probably be too late.

It all goes back to the old Mozambique, and why, you would continue to shoot COM, if the first couple rounds had no discernible effect. And again, if youre reasonably close, why bother with COM at all?

Another question here too is, once you start talking vests, quick(er) incapacitation, and perhaps dealing with expanding distances, yet still being in the kill zone, are you still comfortable with the gun and accessories you choose to carry every day? How about your "true" skills and capabilities?

chimo · November 25, 2015, 01:10 PM

Better yet, put the vest on and have someone shoot you...then get back to us about how unnoticeable and pain-free it was.

Even then, results will vary.

AK103K · November 25, 2015, 01:17 PM

No one said it was pain free. People get shot without vests and dont know they were hit.

Just another reason to shoot the threat to the ground, in any fashion that works as quickly and effectively as possible.

Sharkbite · November 25, 2015, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Better yet, put the vest on and have someone shoot you...then get back to us about how unnoticeable and pain-free it was.

No one said it would be a fun experience AFTER the fact. The issue at hand is, does being hit while wearing a vest "incapacitate" the wearer due to blunt force trama?

The answer is RARELY

Mannlicher · November 25, 2015, 01:34 PM

the likely hood of having to face ISIS jihadists is, well, unlikely. I'd not change my normal routine at all. Well, maybe carry an extra mag. Just in case.

November 24, 2015, 07:03 AM	#27
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	When I was using the term "knockdown power," I was not saying it to imply that the force of the projectile will knock someone off their feet and thrown backwards. That would never happen unless the projectile were very large and moving at a relatively slow speed like, say, a bowling ball. I merely mean that the person receiving a hit or a blow will simply go down. It does not mean they will stay down. It does not mean they are incapacitated, no more than momentarily. It just means they are down, like what happens to a boxer when he is knocked down. In regards to shootings, if the target (the person being shot at) is behind cover, it is likely that the head will be the part exposed more than anything else. A hit to the top of the head, or for that matter, a blow with a blunt object, will generally cause the person to go down. They may get back up right away but that's all I mean when I use the term. And naturally, results are not guaranteed. The same thing happens to animals sometimes with hits almost anywhere. But animals are not people. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

November 24, 2015, 03:31 PM	#31
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	And naturally, results are not guaranteed. Hasn't anyone here ever been knocked down? I have. But I've also received blows on my head that required stitches and I didn't go down, although I bled like crazy. Results are always unpredictable because people are so different. Some people, mostly men, I assume, are used to being hit. Others might go into shock at something that wouldn't even faze someone else. They give decorations to men who keep fighting. They just give Purple Hearts to the others. The only thing common to all of them is a temporary lack of good luck. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

November 24, 2015, 03:47 PM	#32
hub1home Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Posts: 182	Shoot for the Head... I carry FMJ 230 Grain hardball in my Ultra Carry. I don't use jacketed because I just don't trust it 100% in functioning correctly. This, I have practiced aiming for the head but I wouldn't hesitated to shoot for the body if that was the better target.

November 25, 2015, 06:40 AM	#34
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	What you have just described is exactly what I mean by knockdown power. Just remember that Fairbairn wrote that the more he studied the question of knockdown power (which would have been in the 1930s), the less certain he was of anything. Anyway, it should not be confused with lethality. For what it's worth, in none of the combat videos one sees on YouTube of fighting in the Middle East, particularly in Syria, almost no one is wearing any armor, not even helmets, and they are otherwise always lightly equipped. Also, one almost never sees anything but AK rifles and carbines, PK or PKM machine guns and the various Eastern Bloc sniper rifles in the way of small arms. There may be SKS rifles, Mausers, Enfields or Stg44s around but they never show up in videos. It does, however, make you wonder how all those people get their weapons and ammunition, especially the more sophisticated guided missiles. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. Last edited by BlueTrain; November 25, 2015 at 06:48 AM.

November 25, 2015, 10:46 AM	#36
NateKirk Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2013 Location: Detroit Posts: 435	If faced with an attacker wearing body armor I would most likely shoot for the head or legs after finding cover, as my little .380 isn't going to do much against the armor. Changing your carry ammo to account for this EXTREMELY unlikely scenario would be a bad idea IMO. __________________ “Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson

November 23, 2015, 04:33 PM	#26
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Yes, impacts can be painful, and even do some damage...sometimes. Handgun rounds, even against non-armored targets have a relatively low chance of instant incapacitation. To assume that the impact of a handgun bullet against a vest (much less a plate) would instantly knock a determined fighter out of the battle is simply foolish, and unsupported by available evidence.

November 24, 2015, 07:18 PM	#33
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I used to think a hit to the body armor was disabling like you see in the movies. In actual use I have never heard of, seen video of, or anything else of someone going down when hit with a handgun round in even soft body armor that caught the bullet. I have seen videos of guys getting hit with rifle rounds, going down as if sucker punched, and immediately getting back up. This video of a US soldier being shot is probably the best known. As soon as he figures out what is happening he is back on his feet and moving. He probably got hit in a trauma plate, but that was also a rifle round. A terrorist with armor would likely have a trauma plate anyways I think it was reported as X39. ISIS etc. don't have armor in the middle east when they are going into combat daily and hoping to live through it. pelvic girdle.

November 25, 2015, 08:19 AM	#35
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Someone here never took Physics 101. The folks here mention energy. They should be discussing momentum. Same result, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZPusyLeMA

November 25, 2015, 11:26 AM	#37
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Chances are, you'd never know if he was wearing body armor in the first place. If you could tell just by looking, it would probably be too late. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

November 25, 2015, 11:53 AM	#38
Fivesense Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2015 Posts: 140	Given that many people have discussed carrying extra magazines in the wake of the Paris attacks, one could always consider carrying a mag filled (partly or all the way) with armor-piercing rounds.

November 25, 2015, 11:58 AM	#39
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Folks hit in soft armor with handgun rounds RARELY exhibit any reaction to the hit Here are 2 examples i am personally acquainted with. Both in LA, both Brinks guards involved in Robberies i had the "pleasure" of responding to. Both guys hit with handguns in soft armor 1. Just outside the USC campus, guy was hit in the back just over a kidney with a 44mag JSP. He was wearing a 3a vest. Didnt go down. Turned and returned fire. Was taken to the hospital and released later that same day. I heard he was passing blood for a cpl days but it didnt slow him down during the response. 2 Just south of LA, another armored car guard was hit in the chest while engaging 3 badguys. The hit was with a 380acp FMJ bullet. Vest was a Safariland multi-flex level 2 vest with soft trama plates. The hit was center chest just right of the second button, striking the soft trama plate. This guy didnt even know he was hit until someone asked him about the hole in his shirt. The shirt came off and there is a bullet stuck in his vest. He got a little weak in the knees seeing that, but the hit had ZERO effect on his ability to fight. There are tons of vest saves recorded around the world and VERY few report being "knocked down". If you want to see the effect in action. Hang a heavy (punching) bag (~70lbs) and put a vest over it. Shoot the vest. Observe how little the bag moved. Thats only 70lbs. Now put that vest on a 170-200lb man and explain HOW be gets knocked down by that small amount of energy.

November 25, 2015, 01:10 PM	#42
chimo Member Join Date: November 19, 2015 Location: Amish country Posts: 56	Better yet, put the vest on and have someone shoot you...then get back to us about how unnoticeable and pain-free it was. Even then, results will vary. __________________ "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- Willam Pitt

November 25, 2015, 01:17 PM	#43
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	No one said it was pain free. People get shot without vests and dont know they were hit. Just another reason to shoot the threat to the ground, in any fashion that works as quickly and effectively as possible.

November 25, 2015, 01:34 PM	#45
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,208	the likely hood of having to face ISIS jihadists is, well, unlikely. I'd not change my normal routine at all. Well, maybe carry an extra mag. Just in case. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

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