Different bullets of same weight and charge

BJung · January 16, 2021, 11:45 PM

A local reloader I talked to last week said he was going to develop a nice load with a 150gr Hornady so he'll have a general idea what he can work around for testing Barnes 150gr bullets. This will save money.

I did a short search of compared loads using different brand bullets of the same weight and would like to know anyone's experience of developing loads with different brand bullets of the same weight with the same powder. Was your charge the same or close? This would save time going through the whole range of testloads, saving time and money.

Theoretically I think there will be a difference because the shape of the bullet and its construction varies. Yet, given the weight of the bullet and the harmonics of the barrel, shouldn't the charge be close? Given my limited experience shooting, the ideal MV for a rifles I planned to shoot was close to the MV to my discovered ideal charge.

nhyrum · January 16, 2021, 11:52 PM

There will be a difference. I haven't done the exact experiment you're talking about, but I've done one very similar. Same boolit, same charge. Only difference between the two was, one batch was sized and lubed with a traditional lube, the others were powder coated then sized as well. In a 10mm, the Lee 180 grain boolit. Lube was slower by about 15 fps, but with a smaller spread. I didn't test accuracy.

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NoSecondBest · January 17, 2021, 12:17 AM

I don’t understand what he means by “an idea what he can work around”. What does that mean? What’s he trying to do? FWIW, a Barnes bullet is all copper and very different from a Hornady bullet. Not only in composition, but in length due to being lighter than lead vol per vol. Does he own a loading manual or two? Barnes has their own load data for their copper bullets and it’s often very different from lead/copper bullets.

BJung · January 17, 2021, 02:54 AM

He lives near but we've only communicated by email so far. His plan to is find a good load with the 150gr Hornady. Then, since the weight and powder is the same, test loads +/- from what's best using the Hornady load but use the Barnes. The idea is to use less Barnes bullets.

nhyrum · January 17, 2021, 03:08 AM

I totally missed that he was going to compare a hornady to a Barnes. Yeah, as stated above, the solid copper Barnes will be longer, and take up more case space with the same oal(the same oal probably won't be used) but that 150 hornady data will be useless for the Barnes data. Monolithic bullets will have a decent reduction in charge weight given the same pressure. They just take up more space in the case.

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hounddawg · January 17, 2021, 05:09 AM

Not enough information to make a judgement

bullet bearing surface will differ, how much depends on the type of bullet. Hornady A tips and Barnes Match burners are probably pretty close. Hornady ELDX and Barnes TTX no way. I know from experience that SMK's and Nosler CC's are almost identical. Sierra Game Kings and Nosler RDF's not.

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...ace-variation/

cptjack · January 17, 2021, 07:23 AM

that is what I do ,point being by reloading you are saving money ,and the fun is testing your loads

buck460XVR · January 17, 2021, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSecondBest

I don’t understand what he means by “an idea what he can work around”. What does that mean? What’s he trying to do? FWIW, a Barnes bullet is all copper and very different from a Hornady bullet. Not only in composition, but in length due to being lighter than lead vol per vol. Does he own a loading manual or two? Barnes has their own load data for their copper bullets and it’s often very different from lead/copper bullets.

^^^This.

While one can do this to a degree with bullets of similar construction and composition, the difference between a cup and core jacketed and a monolithic copper is day and night. Sounds like the "friend" is not very experienced. In the long run, he will not save monies, but waste monies, because anything he develops with the Hornadys will be worthless for the Barnes.

std7mag · January 17, 2021, 11:08 AM

Your friend will have a good load for his Hornady bullets.
He'll have to start all over with the Barnes.

BJung · January 17, 2021, 11:13 AM

I'm not too experienced with this too so that's why I'm asking. I thought it might be a good idea because I can test two rifle test loads instead of one. The time I have shooting is limited and the number of tests I want to do is large.

cdoc42 · January 17, 2021, 03:04 PM

I get the impression that your friend feels if he develops a good and accurate load with a 150gr Hornady, that will be a good starting point for the use of a 150gr Barnes.

Not really. If the good Hornady load is near max, that would hardly be a good start with the Barnes.

I have 3 rifles in .270 caliber. One does best with a 150gr Hornady spire; the second does best with a 140gr Hornady SST. The third does best with a FLAT base Speer 130gr bullet, but spits the Speer 130gr Boat Tail all over the place.

However your friend developed the Hornady load, he will have to repeat the process with the Barnes. I don't think there are any shortcuts.

Shadow9mm · January 17, 2021, 07:08 PM

short cuts make for long delays, hopefully only to the gunsmith, not the ER.

Different bullets can have different over all lengths. This can cause reduced case capacity and give higher pressures.

Different bullets can have greater bearing surfaces (amount of bullet that touches the barrel), causing higher pressures.

Follow the manuals, work your loads up, be safe

**44 AMP** · January 18, 2021, 01:50 AM

You might substitute bullets of the same size, weight and CONSTRUCTION and be within the safety margin, but changing bullets of the same wieght and different construction is an entirely different matter and a safe powder charge for on might not be safe for another.

And, construction includes the bearing surface size and even the hardness of the alloy the jacket is made from.

If the plan is to work up a load with a (cheaper) Hornady bullet and then just seat an all copper Barnes bullet of the same weight he's ASKING for trouble.

and, he might just GET it!

BJung · January 18, 2021, 02:38 AM

Ok, that makes all perfectly good sense. I'll meet him tomorrow for the first time and let him know.

44AMP, you bring a topic I mentioned on another thread. I don't have my information here but hears the deal. About 15 years ago I did a test for my 7rm within the safety margin and found a good node. I have the MV. I've decided on shooting that 7rm again but with a different powder. My following that charge that the node was produced and within the safety limits of the new powder, will I come close to the node of a new charge of new powder. I never done a ladder test using the same bullet and different powder and compared results to know and maybe someone has.

**Unclenick** · January 18, 2021, 11:22 AM

There's no way to know without trying. If you achieve the same velocity using a faster powder, more of the total bullet acceleration happens near the peak, which has to be higher for that reason, and less happens near the muzzle than with the slower powder. This means the quicker powder has the bullet going faster at an earlier point in the bullet's travel down the barrel, so the bullet gets to the muzzle in a shorter period of time. This means achieving the same velocity with two different powders gives you two barrel times, only one of which may be within your sweet spot timing.

Will the difference in your two powders be big enough to do that? Only testing in your rifle will tell you. I know from experience, though, that powders that produce the lowest velocity spread often are not the same ones that produce the best short range accuracy, so the barrel time thing is real and testing is not easy to avoid.

The problem is that more than one variable is being tuned with each charge weight change, so it is the attempt to identify the fewest shots that take all the variables into account in one test series that is vexing. If your gun has a barrel tuner, you can shoot a series of ten or fifteen shots to find a velocity flat spot and then use the tuner to bring barrel vibration into synchronization with rounds loaded in the middle of the flat spot. That still requires additional shots for the tuner, though, so you can still wind up with 50 rounds down range to tune that one component combination. Without a tuner, it can take more because you are messing with seating depth to change the velocity/barrel time relationship. Or sometimes you just luck into it almost right away. Only testing will tell.

WESHOOT2 · January 20, 2021, 05:17 AM

There are no safe shortcuts.

When you change anything, be it tooling, component, or test platform, start low and work up slow.

jmr40 · January 20, 2021, 03:02 PM

If using bullets of similar construction the difference is usually not enough to matter. I'd strongly advise backing off on my powder charge when changing when 1st switching to another bullet even of the same weight and working back up. But in my experience I almost always end up finding the same powder charge will work.

But the solid copper bullets use VERY different load data compared to conventional lead bullets. Copper is a lot lighter and a 150 gr copper bullet will be much longer than a 150 gr conventional bullet

BJung · January 20, 2021, 03:32 PM

I didn't think of it earlier and last night looked up my 7.7 Arisaka initial ladder tests results. My 7.7-150gr Barnes using grouped best with 48gr R19. My 7.7-150gr Hornady SP grouped best at 47.6gr and 48.2gr R19. I haven't followed up with further tests yet. I think that as long as I'm within a safety zone, I'm ok.

Marco Califo · January 20, 2021, 03:36 PM

For copper bullets I would use only Barnes data, or, for example, Ramshot data published specifically for copper bullets. If you do not realize the differences between copper bullets and regular bullets you have no business touching reloading equipment.
https://www.barnesbullets.com/load-data/
https://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

January 16, 2021, 11:45 PM	#1
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	Different bullets of same weight and charge A local reloader I talked to last week said he was going to develop a nice load with a 150gr Hornady so he'll have a general idea what he can work around for testing Barnes 150gr bullets. This will save money. I did a short search of compared loads using different brand bullets of the same weight and would like to know anyone's experience of developing loads with different brand bullets of the same weight with the same powder. Was your charge the same or close? This would save time going through the whole range of testloads, saving time and money. Theoretically I think there will be a difference because the shape of the bullet and its construction varies. Yet, given the weight of the bullet and the harmonics of the barrel, shouldn't the charge be close? Given my limited experience shooting, the ideal MV for a rifles I planned to shoot was close to the MV to my discovered ideal charge.

January 17, 2021, 05:09 AM	#6
hounddawg Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2009 Posts: 4,232	Not enough information to make a judgement bullet bearing surface will differ, how much depends on the type of bullet. Hornady A tips and Barnes Match burners are probably pretty close. Hornady ELDX and Barnes TTX no way. I know from experience that SMK's and Nosler CC's are almost identical. Sierra Game Kings and Nosler RDF's not. https://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/...ace-variation/ __________________ “How do I get to the next level?” Well, you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave.” – Jerry Miculek

January 17, 2021, 11:08 AM	#9
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Your friend will have a good load for his Hornady bullets. He'll have to start all over with the Barnes. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

January 17, 2021, 07:08 PM	#12
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	short cuts make for long delays, hopefully only to the gunsmith, not the ER. Different bullets can have different over all lengths. This can cause reduced case capacity and give higher pressures. Different bullets can have greater bearing surfaces (amount of bullet that touches the barrel), causing higher pressures. Follow the manuals, work your loads up, be safe __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

January 18, 2021, 01:50 AM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	You might substitute bullets of the same size, weight and CONSTRUCTION and be within the safety margin, but changing bullets of the same wieght and different construction is an entirely different matter and a safe powder charge for on might not be safe for another. And, construction includes the bearing surface size and even the hardness of the alloy the jacket is made from. If the plan is to work up a load with a (cheaper) Hornady bullet and then just seat an all copper Barnes bullet of the same weight he's ASKING for trouble. and, he might just GET it! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

January 16, 2021, 11:52 PM	#2
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2016 Posts: 588	There will be a difference. I haven't done the exact experiment you're talking about, but I've done one very similar. Same boolit, same charge. Only difference between the two was, one batch was sized and lubed with a traditional lube, the others were powder coated then sized as well. In a 10mm, the Lee 180 grain boolit. Lube was slower by about 15 fps, but with a smaller spread. I didn't test accuracy. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

January 17, 2021, 12:17 AM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I don’t understand what he means by “an idea what he can work around”. What does that mean? What’s he trying to do? FWIW, a Barnes bullet is all copper and very different from a Hornady bullet. Not only in composition, but in length due to being lighter than lead vol per vol. Does he own a loading manual or two? Barnes has their own load data for their copper bullets and it’s often very different from lead/copper bullets.

January 17, 2021, 02:54 AM	#4
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	He lives near but we've only communicated by email so far. His plan to is find a good load with the 150gr Hornady. Then, since the weight and powder is the same, test loads +/- from what's best using the Hornady load but use the Barnes. The idea is to use less Barnes bullets.

January 17, 2021, 03:08 AM	#5
nhyrum Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2016 Posts: 588	I totally missed that he was going to compare a hornady to a Barnes. Yeah, as stated above, the solid copper Barnes will be longer, and take up more case space with the same oal(the same oal probably won't be used) but that 150 hornady data will be useless for the Barnes data. Monolithic bullets will have a decent reduction in charge weight given the same pressure. They just take up more space in the case. Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

January 17, 2021, 07:23 AM	#7
cptjack Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2014 Posts: 314	that is what I do ,point being by reloading you are saving money ,and the fun is testing your loads

January 17, 2021, 11:13 AM	#10
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	I'm not too experienced with this too so that's why I'm asking. I thought it might be a good idea because I can test two rifle test loads instead of one. The time I have shooting is limited and the number of tests I want to do is large.

January 17, 2021, 03:04 PM	#11
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I get the impression that your friend feels if he develops a good and accurate load with a 150gr Hornady, that will be a good starting point for the use of a 150gr Barnes. Not really. If the good Hornady load is near max, that would hardly be a good start with the Barnes. I have 3 rifles in .270 caliber. One does best with a 150gr Hornady spire; the second does best with a 140gr Hornady SST. The third does best with a FLAT base Speer 130gr bullet, but spits the Speer 130gr Boat Tail all over the place. However your friend developed the Hornady load, he will have to repeat the process with the Barnes. I don't think there are any shortcuts.

January 18, 2021, 02:38 AM	#14
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	Ok, that makes all perfectly good sense. I'll meet him tomorrow for the first time and let him know. 44AMP, you bring a topic I mentioned on another thread. I don't have my information here but hears the deal. About 15 years ago I did a test for my 7rm within the safety margin and found a good node. I have the MV. I've decided on shooting that 7rm again but with a different powder. My following that charge that the node was produced and within the safety limits of the new powder, will I come close to the node of a new charge of new powder. I never done a ladder test using the same bullet and different powder and compared results to know and maybe someone has.

January 18, 2021, 11:22 AM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	There's no way to know without trying. If you achieve the same velocity using a faster powder, more of the total bullet acceleration happens near the peak, which has to be higher for that reason, and less happens near the muzzle than with the slower powder. This means the quicker powder has the bullet going faster at an earlier point in the bullet's travel down the barrel, so the bullet gets to the muzzle in a shorter period of time. This means achieving the same velocity with two different powders gives you two barrel times, only one of which may be within your sweet spot timing. Will the difference in your two powders be big enough to do that? Only testing in your rifle will tell you. I know from experience, though, that powders that produce the lowest velocity spread often are not the same ones that produce the best short range accuracy, so the barrel time thing is real and testing is not easy to avoid. The problem is that more than one variable is being tuned with each charge weight change, so it is the attempt to identify the fewest shots that take all the variables into account in one test series that is vexing. If your gun has a barrel tuner, you can shoot a series of ten or fifteen shots to find a velocity flat spot and then use the tuner to bring barrel vibration into synchronization with rounds loaded in the middle of the flat spot. That still requires additional shots for the tuner, though, so you can still wind up with 50 rounds down range to tune that one component combination. Without a tuner, it can take more because you are messing with seating depth to change the velocity/barrel time relationship. Or sometimes you just luck into it almost right away. Only testing will tell. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 20, 2021, 05:17 AM	#16
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	There are no safe shortcuts. When you change anything, be it tooling, component, or test platform, start low and work up slow. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 20, 2021, 03:02 PM	#17
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	If using bullets of similar construction the difference is usually not enough to matter. I'd strongly advise backing off on my powder charge when changing when 1st switching to another bullet even of the same weight and working back up. But in my experience I almost always end up finding the same powder charge will work. But the solid copper bullets use VERY different load data compared to conventional lead bullets. Copper is a lot lighter and a 150 gr copper bullet will be much longer than a 150 gr conventional bullet __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

January 20, 2021, 03:32 PM	#18
BJung Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2019 Posts: 773	I didn't think of it earlier and last night looked up my 7.7 Arisaka initial ladder tests results. My 7.7-150gr Barnes using grouped best with 48gr R19. My 7.7-150gr Hornady SP grouped best at 47.6gr and 48.2gr R19. I haven't followed up with further tests yet. I think that as long as I'm within a safety zone, I'm ok.

January 20, 2021, 03:36 PM	#19
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	For copper bullets I would use only Barnes data, or, for example, Ramshot data published specifically for copper bullets. If you do not realize the differences between copper bullets and regular bullets you have no business touching reloading equipment. https://www.barnesbullets.com/load-data/ https://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/ __________________ ............