My Experiment.....

Bob Wright · September 1, 2012, 03:36 PM

I sure don't want to make anybody mad, but I performed this experiment just to satisfy my on mind on the subject of carrying six rounds in a single action revolver.

I loaded six rounds of empty cases into my Ruger Blackhawk (Three Screw) .44 Special and my Uberti Flat Top Target in .45 Colt. My cases were once fired Mag-Tech .44 Special, and Starline .45 Colt.

I loaded the revolvers then lowered the hammer so the firing pin was indexed between cartridge rims. My first objection to this becomes apparent, the cylinder locking bolt is pressed, under spring pressure, against the side of the cylinder. This itself sort of set my teeth on edge.

Using my thumb and fingers, I applied pressure trying to rotate the cylinder. Using considerable force, I was unable to rotate the Ruger's cylinder. I was satisfied that this could be considered a safe carry.

The Uberti was a different story, however. Only slight pressure was applied and the cylinder clicked into battery position, resting over what would have been a live primer. Definitely unsafe with this revolver.

The difference becomes clear when the guns actions are considered. The Ruger has a coil mainspring, the Uberti a flat mainspring. The coil mainspring exerts even pressure when the hammer is at rest. The flat mainspring is "relaxed" and places little tension on the hammer at rest, so that the rotation attempt lets the cartridge rim push against the firing pin and cam the hammer back slightly, enough to complete rotation.

As was displayed previously, a Colt with additional slots in the cylinder would probably lock the cylinder in place.

Mainspring tensions may vary, this was only two revolvers and one batch of cartridge cases.

My conclusion: I'll continue with the empty chamber under the hammer.

Bob Wright

Jim March · September 1, 2012, 04:23 PM

It's a valid test, but also consider that on the three-screw Ruger, only a very slight backwards pressure on the hammer would allow the cylinder to rotate.

I carry my NewVaq357 daily in a high-ride crossdraw rig. It would be perfectly possible for my left sleeve to catch on the hammer and move it a bit. Not a full cocking stroke mind you, but enough to shift the hammer - and move the gun itself enough to roll around the cylinder.

Add a bit of cylinder rotation to a bit of hammer travel and you're set up for a boom.

Shotgun693 · September 1, 2012, 08:24 PM

Well, if you need more than 5 rounds you could always carry two guns. It's claimed that when Jesse James went to pull a Robbery he'd carry as many as 9 revolvers, some on him and the rest on his horse.

James K · September 1, 2012, 09:54 PM

It is probably not a good idea to carry the .45 SAA or an exact clone that way, because there is not enough room between cartridge rims for the firing pin to rest full down. With other cartridges, like .44-40, it is more feasible.

Today with legions of lawyers swarming through the streets seeking whom they may devour, the hammer down on an empty chamber is best. But in the old days the firing pin between cartridge rims was a reasonably safe way of carrying a fully loaded revolver. (The "$20 in a chamber" and other such nonsense were inventions of Colt's lawyers to try to convince Colt customers to keep their toes and to keep Colt unsued.)

Jim

thickice · September 2, 2012, 10:54 AM

Jim, how would you have a "boom"? On all "New Model" Ruger single actions, you have to pull the trigger to raise the transfer bar into position for the hammer to hit the fireing pin.

dahermit · September 2, 2012, 08:35 PM

Quote:

My conclusion: I'll continue with the empty chamber under the hammer.

This begs the question: For what purpose? Carrying for hunting, or do you actually carry a single-action for self-defense? If you are at the range for shooting, I do not see how loading six instead of five would be a problem.

According to Elmer Keith, the big problem with Colts was that the cowboys would hook their stirrup on the saddle horn when tightening the girth, when they pulled up, the stirrup would be jostled off the horn and drop on top of the Colt's hammer, igniting the primer. I do not know what saddle and stirrups Kieth used but all the times I pulled up on the strap to tighten the girth, my stirrup never came off the saddle horn. Keith was so short, I doubt if a saddle stirup could have ever hit his Colt hammer anyway.

Jim March · September 2, 2012, 08:43 PM

I'm referring to that series of events on a "no safety" SA. On my NewVaq I'm covered, absolutely.

Bob Wright · September 2, 2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

This begs the question: For what purpose? Carrying for hunting, or do you actually carry a single-action for self-defense? If you are at the range for shooting, I do not see how loading six instead of five would be a problem.

I carry a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Special, an old Three-Screw Model, every day, thus:

As to hunting, I don't hunt so much anymore, but did practice the same type of carry during deer season with my Super Blackhawk, also a three-screw.

As to the range, habits instilled long ago of five shot strings still abide with me. Strings of five, or ten shots, are easier to score, and cartridges blocks in the boxes are five across, so it keeps the box neater.

And, that's just the way I do it!

Bob Wright

Bob Wright · September 2, 2012, 09:32 PM

As to stirrps slipping off the saddle horn, not all saddle horns are made for roping, and some are very slight projections, and the wide wooden stirrups will slip off without much jostling.

Bob Wright

dahermit · September 3, 2012, 09:33 AM

I

Quote:

carry a Ruger Blackhawk .44 Special, an old Three-Screw Model, every day,

I had a .44 Mag. Ruger, 3-Screw, 5-inch barrel, Flat Top that burned in a fire. Wonderful gun...I have never forgiven Ruger for going to the transfer-bar and pins; the three-screws were the best. But, I do not remember any .44 Specials being made in that era. Do you mean that you shoot it as a .44 Special but it is acutally a magnum? Or is it a custom gun, or there were .44 Specials being put out by Ruger then?

Bob Wright · September 3, 2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

But, I do not remember any .44 Specials being made in that era. Do you mean that you shoot it as a .44 Special but it is acutally a magnum? Or is it a custom gun, or there were .44 Specials being put out by Ruger then?

dahermit

Forgive me for not explaining better. My .44 Special is an old Three-Screw .357 Magnum Blackhawk converted by Dave Clements to a .44 Special.

Bob Wright

Quincunx · September 3, 2012, 11:47 AM

This also raises another question: given the problem being discussed, did anyone ever just make a SA revolver with only 5 loadable chambers? That is, with the space for the 6th chamber simply left unbored in the cylinder. I can't recall ever seeing such a critter, but my experience with SA's is limited.

Malamute · September 3, 2012, 11:59 AM

There have been a couple true dedicated 5 shooters, but they were oriented with the chambers evenly spaced. It gives more metal around the chambers for heavy loads. Freedom Arms 454's are made that way. I've also heard they recommend only loading 4 rounds.

Wouldn't be much reason to leave a blank chamber on a six round layout. If one wanted/needed that last round, I'd sure want it available, even if I didnt carry it fully loaded at all times.

I have tried the firing pin between the rims on a couple Colts. I had the cylinder turn when carrying them on several occasions before I gave it up. This was with a 44 spl and a 45 Colt in Colt Single Actions. The holster was a half flap type that covered the hammer well, and fairly snugly.

The 44-40 has the same size rim as a 45, or very close to it. I don't believe there's any real improvement in that regard. It may work out with a 38/357, but the 44 spl didn't work well for me.

Jim March · September 3, 2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

This also raises another question: given the problem being discussed, did anyone ever just make a SA revolver with only 5 loadable chambers? That is, with the space for the 6th chamber simply left unbored in the cylinder. I can't recall ever seeing such a critter, but my experience with SA's is limited.

Not in historical times. Recently though some of the cartridge conversion cylinders for reproduction percussion guns like the 1858 Remmington clones are set up that way. Kurst Konversion cylinders I *think*, might have been R&D?

But it's not a period-correct modification.

Hawg · September 4, 2012, 01:24 PM

Kirst has their .45 Colt cylinders set up for five shots and a blank space but I think that's because the .44 cylinders aren't quite big enough for six .45 chambers. Their .38 conversions are six shot. R&D(Howell)got around the five shot deal by boring the chambers at a slight angle. Original Remington conversions were also five shot but were .46 caliber.

James K · September 4, 2012, 04:31 PM

I think thickice's question has been answered.

Regardless, folks in the old days really did carry single actions that way, with the firing pin down between rounds. While I have no problem with urging SA owners today to load only five rounds, the old timers would be darned reluctant to sacrifice a round they might need because of safety concerns they didn't have and would not have cared about. And I am pretty sure they didn't give an hoot in hell about what folks in 2012 were going to think about it.

Jim

Hawg · September 4, 2012, 05:18 PM

Well said Jim.

Malamute · September 4, 2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Regardless, folks in the old days really did carry single actions that way, with the firing pin down between rounds. While I have no problem with urging SA owners today to load only five rounds, the old timers would be darned reluctant to sacrifice a round they might need because of safety concerns they didn't have and would not have cared about. And I am pretty sure they didn't give an hoot in hell about what folks in 2012 were going to think about it.

I's be glad to read the historical accounts of people carrying that way. I've read a fair bit, but haven't seen it. I'm not aying it never happened, but from what I've read, I'd guess it was pretty rare. Again, I'd be glad to see the historical reference, if there is any.

Most of the rest of the post is speculation. And it certainly wasn't anything to do with Colts lawyers regarding people carrying 5 rounds in their guns. If I'm mistaken, I'd be glad to see references to that was well. They'd have to go an awful long ways back to account for the habit of carrying 5 rounds. It certainly wasn't universal, but I beleive more common than not. Some found out it can be a hazard carrying 6. To say nobody cared about a hazard is pretty silly, especially when its simply a guess and speculation.

I don't have as much issue with the difference of opinion as I do some of the statements made about it.

lobatebaka · September 5, 2012, 12:17 AM

As long as you've brought up kirst and R&D converters I really want one for my 1858 Remy .44 . any one have one in 45ACP or 45 LC they'd like to hook me up. I'm already loading for the 45ACP . I have a 1858 old army .44 made by Pietta. Come on guys some one has to have one they can sell me. I want to start having some fun with an old time wheel gun.

Sport45 · September 5, 2012, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quincunx

This also raises another question: given the problem being discussed, did anyone ever just make a SA revolver with only 5 loadable chambers? That is, with the space for the 6th chamber simply left unbored in the cylinder. I can't recall ever seeing such a critter, but my experience with SA's is limited.

That would sure be a game changer in Russian Roulette.

Quincunx · September 6, 2012, 05:37 PM

That would sure be a game changer in Russian Roulette.

ROTFL.

Edward429451 · September 7, 2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Freedom Arms 454's are made that way. I've also heard they recommend only loading 4 rounds.

I own a FA 83, 454 Casull. It is in fact a 5 shot and I only load 5 when I am at the range. The trigger is so sweet on this gun that I wouldn't dream of letting them modify it to a transfer bar system.

OTOH, my Ruger BH convertible is 6 shots with transfer bar and I like it like that. Pretty nice to carry 6 up with confidence. It still has a nice trigger on it too.

Jim March · September 7, 2012, 09:23 AM

The FA 97 series has a transfer bar and still manages to rock a very nice trigger.

The trigger on my Ruger NewVaq (2005 vintage) has been tuned by me - basic spring kit, mild internal polishing (NOT on the sear surfaces!) and a lot of shooting it has given me a trigger that would be hard to match by any gunsmith on any gun, at least SA. I'm still rockin' the transfer bar safety and six-up carry...

September 1, 2012, 03:36 PM	#1
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	My Experiment..... I sure don't want to make anybody mad, but I performed this experiment just to satisfy my on mind on the subject of carrying six rounds in a single action revolver. I loaded six rounds of empty cases into my Ruger Blackhawk (Three Screw) .44 Special and my Uberti Flat Top Target in .45 Colt. My cases were once fired Mag-Tech .44 Special, and Starline .45 Colt. I loaded the revolvers then lowered the hammer so the firing pin was indexed between cartridge rims. My first objection to this becomes apparent, the cylinder locking bolt is pressed, under spring pressure, against the side of the cylinder. This itself sort of set my teeth on edge. Using my thumb and fingers, I applied pressure trying to rotate the cylinder. Using considerable force, I was unable to rotate the Ruger's cylinder. I was satisfied that this could be considered a safe carry. The Uberti was a different story, however. Only slight pressure was applied and the cylinder clicked into battery position, resting over what would have been a live primer. Definitely unsafe with this revolver. The difference becomes clear when the guns actions are considered. The Ruger has a coil mainspring, the Uberti a flat mainspring. The coil mainspring exerts even pressure when the hammer is at rest. The flat mainspring is "relaxed" and places little tension on the hammer at rest, so that the rotation attempt lets the cartridge rim push against the firing pin and cam the hammer back slightly, enough to complete rotation. As was displayed previously, a Colt with additional slots in the cylinder would probably lock the cylinder in place. Mainspring tensions may vary, this was only two revolvers and one batch of cartridge cases. My conclusion: I'll continue with the empty chamber under the hammer. Bob Wright

September 1, 2012, 04:23 PM	#2
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	It's a valid test, but also consider that on the three-screw Ruger, only a very slight backwards pressure on the hammer would allow the cylinder to rotate. I carry my NewVaq357 daily in a high-ride crossdraw rig. It would be perfectly possible for my left sleeve to catch on the hammer and move it a bit. Not a full cocking stroke mind you, but enough to shift the hammer - and move the gun itself enough to roll around the cylinder. Add a bit of cylinder rotation to a bit of hammer travel and you're set up for a boom. __________________ Jim March

September 2, 2012, 08:43 PM	#7
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	I'm referring to that series of events on a "no safety" SA. On my NewVaq I'm covered, absolutely. __________________ Jim March

September 3, 2012, 11:47 AM	#12
Quincunx Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Location: People's Republic of Maryland Posts: 421	This also raises another question: given the problem being discussed, did anyone ever just make a SA revolver with only 5 loadable chambers? That is, with the space for the 6th chamber simply left unbored in the cylinder. I can't recall ever seeing such a critter, but my experience with SA's is limited. __________________ A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. --- Cicero

September 3, 2012, 11:59 AM	#13
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	There have been a couple true dedicated 5 shooters, but they were oriented with the chambers evenly spaced. It gives more metal around the chambers for heavy loads. Freedom Arms 454's are made that way. I've also heard they recommend only loading 4 rounds. Wouldn't be much reason to leave a blank chamber on a six round layout. If one wanted/needed that last round, I'd sure want it available, even if I didnt carry it fully loaded at all times. I have tried the firing pin between the rims on a couple Colts. I had the cylinder turn when carrying them on several occasions before I gave it up. This was with a 44 spl and a 45 Colt in Colt Single Actions. The holster was a half flap type that covered the hammer well, and fairly snugly. The 44-40 has the same size rim as a 45, or very close to it. I don't believe there's any real improvement in that regard. It may work out with a 38/357, but the 44 spl didn't work well for me. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

September 1, 2012, 08:24 PM	#3
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	Well, if you need more than 5 rounds you could always carry two guns. It's claimed that when Jesse James went to pull a Robbery he'd carry as many as 9 revolvers, some on him and the rest on his horse.

September 1, 2012, 09:54 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is probably not a good idea to carry the .45 SAA or an exact clone that way, because there is not enough room between cartridge rims for the firing pin to rest full down. With other cartridges, like .44-40, it is more feasible. Today with legions of lawyers swarming through the streets seeking whom they may devour, the hammer down on an empty chamber is best. But in the old days the firing pin between cartridge rims was a reasonably safe way of carrying a fully loaded revolver. (The "$20 in a chamber" and other such nonsense were inventions of Colt's lawyers to try to convince Colt customers to keep their toes and to keep Colt unsued.) Jim

September 2, 2012, 10:54 AM	#5
thickice Member Join Date: December 15, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 69	Jim, how would you have a "boom"? On all "New Model" Ruger single actions, you have to pull the trigger to raise the transfer bar into position for the hammer to hit the fireing pin.

September 2, 2012, 09:32 PM	#9
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	As to stirrps slipping off the saddle horn, not all saddle horns are made for roping, and some are very slight projections, and the wide wooden stirrups will slip off without much jostling. Bob Wright

September 4, 2012, 01:24 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Kirst has their .45 Colt cylinders set up for five shots and a blank space but I think that's because the .44 cylinders aren't quite big enough for six .45 chambers. Their .38 conversions are six shot. R&D(Howell)got around the five shot deal by boring the chambers at a slight angle. Original Remington conversions were also five shot but were .46 caliber.

September 4, 2012, 04:31 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I think thickice's question has been answered. Regardless, folks in the old days really did carry single actions that way, with the firing pin down between rounds. While I have no problem with urging SA owners today to load only five rounds, the old timers would be darned reluctant to sacrifice a round they might need because of safety concerns they didn't have and would not have cared about. And I am pretty sure they didn't give an hoot in hell about what folks in 2012 were going to think about it. Jim

September 4, 2012, 05:18 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Well said Jim.

September 5, 2012, 12:17 AM	#19
lobatebaka Junior Member Join Date: September 2, 2012 Posts: 6	load 5 leave one empty As long as you've brought up kirst and R&D converters I really want one for my 1858 Remy .44 . any one have one in 45ACP or 45 LC they'd like to hook me up. I'm already loading for the 45ACP . I have a 1858 old army .44 made by Pietta. Come on guys some one has to have one they can sell me. I want to start having some fun with an old time wheel gun.

September 6, 2012, 05:37 PM	#21
Quincunx Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2005 Location: People's Republic of Maryland Posts: 421	That would sure be a game changer in Russian Roulette. ROTFL. __________________ A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. --- Cicero

September 7, 2012, 09:23 AM	#23
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	The FA 97 series has a transfer bar and still manages to rock a very nice trigger. The trigger on my Ruger NewVaq (2005 vintage) has been tuned by me - basic spring kit, mild internal polishing (NOT on the sear surfaces!) and a lot of shooting it has given me a trigger that would be hard to match by any gunsmith on any gun, at least SA. I'm still rockin' the transfer bar safety and six-up carry... __________________ Jim March