Bar room beating of a woman by off-duty LEO

[Kennedy124]

I haven't seen the video, but if I saw a 300lbs fat guy beating a women up ANYWHERE, with or without a badge, I would crush him no if ands or buts.

[seeker_two]

Well...knowing that the man is a member of law enforcement, I'd ignore his current behavior and offer to break open a bottle of Bombay Sapphire with this hard working gentleman.....

...across the back of his skull. (And, if you've seen how a bottle of BS is constructed, you'll understand my choice... )

Then I'd walk away, call my lawyer, and secure a copy of that tape to post on YouTube before CPD could begin to cover up the incident...


Of course, all of this is moot if you live in France (where videotaping any LEO is illegal...)

[DNK]

Kenny, I have to disagree with your statement -

"They're people doing a job just like a teacher or even the garbage man."

While it is a job and there indeed are worthless examples of police, lawyers, and just about every other profession out there that are breathing our oxygen and wasting gravity, the job of a police officer is significantly different from that of a garbage man or teacher.

They are public servants who are held to a higher standard because of what we expect them to do and the authority we give them. In short, we give them guns and the authority to search, detain and even kill ordinary citizens if required in the performance of their duties. I think just those facts make it very different from just another job.

I agree with you, however, that no one should "fear" the police. That tells me there is either a perception problem or real issue in a jurisdiction. In either case, that's something their PD or someone higher up the chain needs to fix.

Now about that worthless bag of crap that beat on that woman...I agree with you totally there. Let me just say that I personally could not stand by and watch some dude, regardless of his size, beat on some woman out of the blue and do nothing. I think we're engaging in a lot of speculation on what would happen in the moment and then the legal aftermath based on the fact that we know, NOW, that this guy was a cop. I'm not an LEO or a lawyer, but I think that any jury would typically be instructed that they could only consider whether you performed the actions of a reasonable person with the knowledge that you had at the time. So to everyone who has said that they wouldn't intervene because he was a cop, the question is - if you see some fat drunk beating up a small female bartender - would you intervene?

Based on this situation I think some other questions are -- You land a couple hits to his chops and then he says, "I'm a cop". Do you pause or continue to pummel him based on the fact that you haven't seen his badge and his behavior belies his status? Now he displays his badge -- You, as a law abiding citizen, of course stop fighting - does he? What do you do if he doesn't? And of course the ultimate TFL question. Now he goes for or has pulled a gun -- I think most TFLers agree that if he hasn't shown a badge - there's probably gonna' be a gunfight. But what do you do if he's identified himself, has pulled the badge, but now he's drunk AND very angry at you AND has a gun.

And probably one of the most important question is - have you been drinking AT ALL? I think drunken off duty cops have very little credibility in "he said, she said" types of situations, but drunken private citizens have even less so. My 2 centavos.

[buckster]

At that moment, he was a criminal. I would of walked over, and broke his knee cap with a side kick and helped the girl to safety. That " don't mess with a cop" does not fly with me. They are not above the law.

[applesanity]

Why do people fear cops?

Because they are subjective enforcers of the law. Look! he's got a gun! We found some drugs in your backseat. The suspect assaulted me. etc.

I have many friends and some family members who are cops. none are better then me or our other friends and we're not better then them.

I wish I had cop friends. They could always bail me out. Unfortunately, I, like most people, are on the receiving end.

Actually there is no us or them.

Yes, yes there is. We don't belong in their fraternal order. We are standing on this side of the thin blue line.

Why do you feel they have more rights then the average citizen.

Because they do. Because cops everywhere are always looking for excuses to disarm the citizenry, so that they and nobody else have guns. Because cops would rather continue napping in their patrol cars then go stop a crime in progress. Because cops still pin it all on the black guy. Because cops still take bribe money. It's not merely my word or your word against a bad cop. It's your word against an entire precinct + the DA.

Look, until you and yours have been royally f***ed around by big-city 5-0, you have no right. No right. Corrupt does not even begin to describe what so many cops are capable of.

I'm still standing by what I said earlier. If you see a bad cop do a bad thing, videotape everything, but don't intervene.

[4V50 Gary]

Interesting point DNK. You pummel him and then he says, "I'm a cop."

Has he stopped striking the woman? If he has already stopped, then you must stop. He may even attempt to place you under arrest but he can't for battery on a peace officer.

The issue may become one of mistaken self-defense of another. Some states allow you to rush to the assistance of another, but if that other was in the wrong and you assault the winner (the one who is right), then what?

[Half-Price Assassin]

well i feel so much better now knowing there are so many undercover supermen out there willing to risk their freedom, for a stranger. in this day in age of people not calling the police, when they are witnessing someone break into another persons car, or calling the police when a teenage girl gets kidnapped in broad daylight (remember that case on the news where some car, or van pulled up and grabbed some young girl at a mall in california, or was it arizona, and NO ONE did a thing)! anyway, back to topic, law enforcement, or not, it would be very unwise to attack a drunk 300lb man with a gun, chances are if you break his knee, he panics, and pulls his weapon, which leads to more choices, do i put two in his chest or lay down with both hands behind my back. and like before, lets pretend this is all happing in that same bar, minus the witnesses, and camera. choose wisely my friends.

[biglabsrule]

cops who break the law, should be punished 10x worst then a non-LEO. and politicans who dont protect the bill of rights should be shiped to China.

kinda true but it's the opposite,

If you do something to a cop you get punished 10x, they must be better than the rest of us? I know alot of cops are on here but doesn't the law say that when it's written to punish someone killing a cop with double the sentence than if I was the victim?

We had a couple guys in my area that robbed a jewelry store. The cops show up and one gives up. The other runs for it and takes pock shots with a pistol as he's running and grazes the neck of a LEO. The LEO later dies in the hospitol. I found it strange that yet the one was in custody when the LEO was shot he was charged with and tried on murder also... a special law to do with the shooting of a LEO, doesn't make much sence to me.

I get the idea, stiffer laws encourage people to not run from the noise or shoot back, "helps make LEO job's less erm dangerous perhaps?", kind of reminds me of affirmative action, gives special privlage, just not fair in the long run...

[Don Lu]

Applesanity,

I share your sentiments.

[kennybs plbg]

Why do people fear cops?

Because they are subjective enforcers of the law

And this is bad for law abiding people?

We are standing on this side of the thin blue line

The only reason the thin blue line exists is to combat the mentality of the people who fear cops to begin with.

kenny b

[Edward429451]

Didn't anyone's dad (except kenny's) teach them to stand up to the bully? My God, some big guy is beating the crap out of a woman over there. Don't just stand there, do something. This is real life where sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. So what. You take your lumps and keep on going, at least you did something, tried. Even if you get the crap beat out of you, you would still have distracted his violence from the woman. It is not ok to be a coward no matter who they are. That COPS tv show teaches people to cower from cops. The odds are real but right is still right. It's not a cop thing anyway, this guy just happened to be an off duty cop.

[applesanity]

And this is bad for law abiding people?

The word you're looking for is "objective," not "subjective."

The only reason the thin blue line exists is to combat the mentality of the people who fear cops to begin with.

Okay here goes.

We had a New's Year's party in NYC. Like any big party, uninvited guests arrive. You know, "I'm a friend of a friend" and so on. Around 4:30, the party is clearly over, so we're trying to kick strangers out. There's these two drunk white guys who refuse to leave. Eventually, they're surrounded by myself and all my friends, so they get the point. Five seconds after they leave, a bottle shatters the front door.

Mind you, this is NYC. There are video cameras everywhere. There's no point to lying.

Two of my friends, (one black, one muslim-looking) go outside to investigate. Sure enough those two guys are outside. They are confronted. And by confronted, I mean, "hey was it you two who just did that?" No more, no less. Then one of those guys totally jumps my black friend, beating him up. My black friend wasn't fighting back, just resisting defensively. At some point the attacker puts his car keys in his fists and stabs my black friend in the eye.

We call the cops. By the time they (white cops) arrive, my friend is a bloody mess. We had all tried to stop the fight, but these guys were drunk and unstoppable. The cops come and they don't believe a thing we say.

"but officers, we're the ones who called you, we're the ones who live here, and one of us is seriously hurt."

"Hey it's your word against theirs"

"there's two freaking security cameras pointed at this block. Just go check them out."

"Oh it's just New Years, you all should just go home."

At which point the two drunken white guys run to there car and drive off. And by run, I mean stumble, because they were piss drunk. One of the cops yells at them, and then mutters, "Oh, f*** it."

"Officers, you just let two guys leave the scene of crime and drive away drunk!"

"IT'S NEW YEAR'S. EVERYONE'S DRUNK."

"But our friend here is hurt. Aren't you going to do something?"

"Look it's late, and I'm tired. If you keep bothering me, I'll arrest you. Now take your friend home and clean him up."

This was all caught on security cameras. There's no point to fabricating a story like this. And you wouldn't believe the harrassment my friend's lawyer got from the DA and the precinct after he tried to file a case. Thin blue line indeed.

I'm only pointing skin colors, because it may have been a racist issue. But most likely, it was probably an a**hole cop issue.

As for this chicago cop story, it's not a matter my risking a couple bruises and cuts. It's not an issue of cowardice. It's the hell that my friends and family will have to go through, if I stand up to a cop. It sounds like this bartender is going through hell herself, simply for filing charges. Some of you guys are just after a little glory while rescuing the damsel in distress. Welcome to the real world.

[Capt. Charlie]

Currently, there are approximately 740,000 law enforcement officers serving in the United States. It never ceases to amaze me how, when a bad cop turns up, the other 739,999 get branded as well. If you worked for a company with only one / one hundredth of that, the odds are that there are at least a couple of thieves among you, and maybe worse. Even though we screen applicants as best we can, a few slip through the cracks, and something like this happens.

It further amazes me that some here think that, when one cop goes bad, almost three quarters of a million others are going to cover up for him . Ever hear of Internal Affairs?

Because cops everywhere are always looking for excuses to disarm the citizenry, so that they and nobody else have guns.

And to imply that our purpose in life is to confiscate your guns? Following that logic, with a number of the staff here at TFL being LEO's, we're really spies and plotting against you .

Be that as it may, you are most certainly entitled to your opinion(s), but this thread is primarily aimed at what tactics should be employed when an aggressor/BG turns out to be a law enforcement officer. It's a valid question. Lets not get this off topic by turning it into a cop bashing session.

[blueorb]

"Capt Charlie
Staff

It further amazes me that some here think that, when one cop goes bad, almost three quarters of a million others are going to cover up for him . Ever hear of Internal Affairs?"


Well, where was Internal Affairs when he was first charged with a misdemeanor? You don't call that "covering up"? The only reason the misdemeanor didn't stick is because of the video. Not to mention the DUI that mysteriously disappeared.
True it is not right to condemn all cops because of a small few but what this guy has gotten away with is ridiculous.

[Capt. Charlie]

True it is not right to condemn all cops because of a small few but what this guy has gotten away with is ridiculous.

Agreed. No question that he should be hung out to dry. Further, there's no question that there are departments out there with major integrity problems. Ask Al Serpico.

But again, we're getting off topic. The issue is, what tactics should be employed when an aggressor/BG turns out to be a law enforcement officer? Back on topic.... please!

[TexiCali Slim]

HE WAS A OFF DUTY COP! he wasn't wearing a uniform so the fact that you wouldnt help that lady because he was a cop doesn't apply. Before you would intervine would you ask if he was a cop? "Sir unless your a cop Im going to insist that you refrain from beating this woman" as to running away and calling on a cell phone, your wasting time that this woman might not have, Your not man enough to take a beating for a women being beat by a 300LB guy? Guns IMO are a last resort maybe before buying 20+ guns for self defense, consider self defense classes or PT.
And by the way you wouldnt be in any trouble beating this guy up for her defense becasue it was all on camera, and he was drunk, he was in plain clothes, and you'd have at LEAST 1 greatful witness to back you up. Even if after you were hitting him he said he was a cop would you really believe him?
My God I can't believe that so many people wouldn't intervine and are actually defending it. Makes me sick.

[WIN71]

First off, the video did not have a happy ending. Had somebody in there picked up a bar stool and waylaid fatso it would have. That said it got me to thinking. The people that would help out must all be here on TFL because short of other off duty cops or marine types you very seldom hear about "normal" citizens coming to the aid of other citizens. Maybe it does happen with some frequency. For some reason I don't hear it very often.

[Trip20]

Ordinary citizens often stand by and watch as others are assaulted even when it would appear to be obvious that the assailant is not a LEO.

I can only imagine the likelihood of assistance coming from a fellow citizen dramatically decreases when the assailant is a known LEO. But, I think in most cases you will have limited knowledge of the parties involved in an assault.

As far as strategies… well I think that differs from person to person due to physical abilities and things of that nature. But there are a few things that should be done in all situations. Namely, have the cops on the way ASAP. That’s the first step unless there is absolute immediate possibility of death or something else that requires immediate involvement.

Then comes time to make a decision… are you going to intervene beyond making that phone call?

If yes, try to get the assistance of other able-bodied bystanders… that’s a plus. It’s easier to overwhelm an attacker with more people.

From that point on… it’s all up in the air depending on how things develop and how well the assailant takes to being confronted. The situation could diffuse immediately, or you could be the next target for the bad guy’s rage.

There are a wide range of possible outcomes and this demonstrates the importance of having more than one tool. I see people refer to OC spray as a “condiment” a lot around here. I also see people deride its effectiveness, but OC spray really is an important tool for those situations where introducing a firearm is a bad idea.

The decision to become involved is a personal decision and there are a lot of factors that influence that decision. But there is one thing I'm sure everyone can agree to. And that is, if the girl in the video were your girlfriend, wife, daughter, or niece you would want someone to step in on her behalf to offer some protection and stop the assault.

Those who's default setting is to never become involved should think about this. It's the same mentality that allowed airplanes to fly into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

[TexiCali Slim]

Those who's default setting is to never become involved should think about this. It's the same mentality that allowed airplanes to fly into the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

Couldn't agree more

[Duxman]

Getting back into topic:

First, the suspect was not in a police uniform - so unless he brandished his badge at the bar or there was some conversation BEFORE the beating that I overheard refering to him as a Police officer, I would assume that he was a civilian. So the question then becomes what would I do if I saw a 300 Ib male beating up a 120 pound female?

I have some martial arts training, so I would probably jump over the bar, kick him in the face or a straight cross to the chin, and continue to hit him until he was no longer a threat. No need to draw weapon at this point.

Now lets say as I was engaging him I noticed that he is going for a gun. Then I would have to defend myself accordingly.

Hypothetical: Lets say I knew he was a policeman - because of one of the two reasons above - and he started hitting the woman.

Tough call - I would probably assume he was armed. That alone would change the way I would deal with the situation. Also the situation might change if I was alone, or with someone. If I was with a buddy, we might just gang tackle suspect and hold him down. If I was with SO, I dont think there is anyway I would engage a police officer who was armed. Unless he was threatening my SO.


Hypothetical #2 - lets say the 120 Ib woman was your SO, or your friend. Would that change the way you would deal with this situation?

Gentlemen - lets hear your thoughts.

[Rangefinder]

What I'm questioning here is WHY the notion he was a cop suddenly changes peoples perception of what's right or wrong and how to intervene. I don't particularly care if he was a cop or the pope--if I see a 300lb guy beating up on a woman, it's essentially my responsibility or even DUTY as a citizen to do whatever I can to stop him. If that means cracking him over the skull with a JD bottle till he can be hauled off to the clinker, great--I'll have a bottle in each hand. If it means putting a pool cue through his throat and letting the coroner put him in the cooler, fine. I don't give a damn who he is or what social status he carries--right and wrong should not hindge on whether or not someone holds a social position.

[markj]

This would not have happened in our bar, a large very large bouncer would have grabbed him and escorted him right out the door while 911 was being dialed by the bar tender. Cops in our town dont go drinking in non cop bars tho so I doubt it would have happened as it did there. No guns allowed in bars so cant shoot even if he pulled a gun.

[KALIFORNIST]

I dont know what Id do in this situation.Kinda of a damned if you do damned if you dont.I would stay out if it till it got to the point where she was gonna be killed or seriously injured,then I would put a bullet in the guy .After that I would call most of my loved ones and tell them I love them before this guys buddies showed up cause there is a good chance I wouldnt survive the night in the local jail.I dont buy this 99.9 % of all cops are nice guys and I know what I would be facing as soon as I was alone with them.For my troubles I might even be charged with assaulting the woman to.All I can hope is this poor young lady woulda been worth my sacrifice and that My lawyer could get ahold of the tape before it disapears.I probably sound like a cop basher and thats ok cause I am realist and I have heard reports on the news that the Victim was actually called and harrased.

[Half-Price Assassin]

First of all no, one here believes all cops are bad. but afew of us here know that more then a handfull are bad, and do not deserve to have jobs, as peace officers. I feel like opening up a poll on the gerneral disscusion forum, entitled, "Would you risk going to jail for 5+ years, have a felony record (meaning no more guns for you), be away from your family (possably lose your wife or girlfriend), for a stranger? it also seems like many "machomen", here would only really act if a woman was attacked. maybe the 120lb woman might return the favor, perhaps? the question alot of you seem to forget is this isnt a school yard bully, who give you a few "bumps", but a cop, that could alter your life, for worse. so the real training here is are you perpared to take on a drunk armed man? cause you sure wont be carrying unless, you like the idea of going to jail for 2 years for carrying a gun in a place that serves liquor. i guess if "I" didnt know it was a cop, sure "I" would get afew guys and stop him. so for this one case, yes "I" would attack the police officer. but i brought up another question, would you do the same if there were no witnesses, and no surveillance cameras? i didnt really having awhole lot more new to add, just didnt want people to think that those with different views, disliked cops, or didnt trust them.

you know after you think about it, this really isnt a tactical question anymore but more of an ethics question. would you risk your freedom, and possibly life for a stranger? any answer either way is not wrong, unless you say i would stand back and enjoy watching a helpless human being have their head knocked in.

[kennybs plbg]

By the time you set up your scale to weigh all the facts, options and what if's she'd be dead 20 years and he'd be retired from the force.

There is only one answer here, to try to stop the attack ASAP and wait for the police to arrive. Your only response is to stop the attack, not be judge and jury.

kenny b