Interesting FBI Report

[Deaf Smith]

And yet they overwhelmingly win their encounters. Which to me indicates we worry way to much about things that matter very little. Give me cops that can think, are good problem solvers, can communicate effectively, have good reading and writing skills, and so on. Being a good shot or caring very much about guns is way down on the list, IMO.

No david, they use teamwork. They use their two-way. They get backup. They wear bullet resistant vest. They learn to avoid the fatal funnel. They learn positional awareness, they.... well there's more to a gunfight than guns. One tries to bring about a situation so advantageous the suspects have no desire to fight, or if they do fight, they are in a bad situation from the start.

Reading and writing comes in back at the station, but leaning to talk to people on the street does help keep a fight from happening... things like Verbial Judo.

[SpiritWalker]

I'll take this report with a grain of salt. One problem that most psych weenies have never overcome is their inability to understand or accept the fact that 90% of what a career criminal says about himself is untrue, if not an out-right lie. The truth is generally not in them except by accident.

Interviewing them is a pointless exploration of their self-pity, delusions and fantasies about how tough they are. When what they really are, is afraid of nearly everything and everybody and unable to come to terms with that fear. Like the man said, "That might make them dangerous but it doesn't make them tough."

All that being said, the one salient point IMO is that LEOs really do need to practice effectively firing their issue weapon in high stress situations. That point has been shouted from the rooftops for 30 years that I know of but most cops, like most other people, just want to have a normal life when they get off work, not spend their off hours practicing and preparing for job related duties.

[David Armstrong]

No david, they use teamwork. They use their two-way. They get backup. They wear bullet resistant vest. They learn to avoid the fatal funnel. They learn positional awareness, they.... well there's more to a gunfight than guns.

deaf, deaf, deaf....your regular willingness to comment on things you know little about never ceases to amaze me. Yes, LEOs use all those things--when they can. All of which, BTW, indicate that, as I said, they overwhelmingly win their encounters even if they are not into guns and shooting. However, even when those things are not present or were not present, LEOs overwhelmingly win their encounters.

Reading and writing comes in back at the station,

It comes in at a lot of places besides the station.

[Hardtarget]

For myself...the comment that the BG practices more and was actually "putting hits on target" makes me know that I need to get to the range LOTS more. I think I shot maybe four times last year. Not near enough.
I always felt there was no remorse from the criminal...and no hesitation. This whole thing underlines the problem of the criminal element in society. Kind of scary.
Mark.

[Deaf Smith]

deaf, deaf, deaf....your regular willingness to comment on things you know little about never ceases to amaze me. Yes, LEOs use all those things--when they can. All of which, BTW, indicate that, as I said, they overwhelmingly win their encounters even if they are not into guns and shooting. However, even when those things are not present or were not present, LEOs overwhelmingly win their encounters.

So they overwhelmingly win their encounters when team work, backups, two--ways, bullet proof vest, etc.. , is not present? So if there is no team work, two-ways, BP vest, etc.. they still overwhelmingly win their encounters? Are you talking about parking meeter tickets or jay-walking or what for encounters?

[David Armstrong]

So they overwhelmingly win their encounters when team work, backups, two--ways, bullet proof vest, etc.. , is not present?

Yes.

So if there is no team work, two-ways, BP vest, etc.. they still overwhelmingly win their encounters?

Yes.

Are you talking about parking meeter tickets or jay-walking or what for encounters?

deaf, once again you demonstrate an amazing lack of understanding for something you want to talk a lot about. What kind of encounters have we been talking about? If you haven't been able to figure that out yet I doubt anyone trying to get more detailed will help.

[philapdrcrt]

Quote:
"from my own leo experiance i believe that the people being hired as cops are part of the problem. they aren't gun people and have no interest in or experience with firearms. particularly female officers. cops are some of the worst shots going.

And yet they overwhelmingly win their encounters. Which to me indicates we worry way to much about things that matter very little. Give me cops that can think, are good problem solvers, can communicate effectively, have good reading and writing skills, and so on. Being a good shot or caring very much about guns is way down on the list, IMO. "


maybe so, but i think firearms training needs a lot more emphasis. you see a lot of officers who don't care much about guns, meaning they often carry dirty and/or unlubed/underlubed weapons. you see a lot of officers who barely qualify and don't practice. not every LEO needs to be a gun enthusiast, but every LEO should care about guns.

[Deaf Smith]

deaf, once again you demonstrate an amazing lack of understanding for something you want to talk a lot about. What kind of encounters have we been talking about? If you haven't been able to figure that out yet I doubt anyone trying to get more detailed will help.

Apparently you are talking about parking tickets. LEO's don't sit around alone without just about everything I described. Looks like you pretty much demonstrated what being at a desk to long can do to someone.

[CobrayCommando]

That's a sound plan anyway, but remember, these are crooks that shoot at cops, not crooks that shoot at your average joe or even other gang members. Generally my opinion on those folks is still that they cannot shoot. IMO this study really applies to LE (and non-military LE at that) more than anyone else.

It's still really frightening... I wonder what percentage of violent criminals are cop shooters or more appropriately, I wonder what portion of the average thug population this study group represents.

Good thread OBI WAN

[ccw9mm]

There is a copy posted on CalGunLaws.com: click here.

[TheWanderer]

On the other hand, the study is about the inner city bad guy versus the police and if most of us are nice, law-abiding citizens, I doubt if any of us travel in that universe. In fact, most of us have absolutely no experience with it and might never know it existed.

I wish it didn't exist, and I wish I didn't know about it, or had to travel in it. Not the case however.

[David Armstrong]

Apparently you are talking about parking tickets.

Sigh. Once again, deaf, you stretch so far to try to score a point that it no longer has any relationship to what is being discussed. The fact that you would even consider that the conversatio was about parking tickets shows your lack of understanding on the topic.

LEO's don't sit around alone without just about everything I described.

Once again your lack of knowledge just jumps out and screams "I don't know what I am talking about!" So yes, LEOs regularly do not work as part of a team during a shooting (yes, we are talking about shooting incidents, since you seem to have trouble understanding the topic!), they don't have back-up with them during a shooting incident, they often are not in radio contact during a shooting, and frequently they are not wearing a vest. And yet they regularly win their encounters.

Looks like you pretty much demonstrated what being at a desk to long can do to someone.

What does it do? One can easily find the flaws in your reasoning without being at a desk.

[KALIFORNIST]

I think what deaf was trying to say is that in most situations the police have the deck stacked in their favor from the start,as it should be but if your average cop was in a fire fight with the same deck they wouldn't win nearly as much.If that was what he was trying to say then I would agree.If it isn't what he was trying to say then I guess I am saying it.Criminals are not as stupid and untrained as we might think or hope for that matter.After all they make their living being thugs and are probably used to violence on a daily basis.Thats why cops do what they can to make sure they have the upper hand and thats also why I pay my taxes.

[David Armstrong]

I think what deaf was trying to say is that in most situations the police have the deck stacked in their favor from the start....

You may be right, but that is not dependent on things like teamwork, backup, two-way radio, body armor etc. Even without those coming into play, police regularly win, and have won, their encounters. That is my point. Certainly they help when they come into play, but how often they come into play and if that makes a difference is the bigger issue here, IMO.

[gdeal]

We can conceal carry and go into dangerous locations OR we can NOT carry and avoid stupid locations. Would that be OK?

[David Armstrong]

I think it is John Farnam who said "You shouldn't go anywhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without a gun." The CCW is not a magic protection talisman, and making your decision on whether or not to go someplace based on that seems like poor reasoning to me.

[Deaf Smith]

KALIFORNIST,

Cops win not by how good a shot (or bad) most of the time cuase they have support. The support may be a backup, it may be the body armor, it may be the training to keep out of the fatal funnel when walking up to cars, or their radio to get info on who or whom they stopped, etc... or a combination of those things and more.

Just about every LEO stop is not done in a vaccum. It's not Wyatt Earp by himself accosting three BGs (unless the cop is really stupid, and some have died doing that very thing.. I even have car cam vidos of that kind of thing happening.)

Their skill with weapons is well down the pike as for what really saves their butt. David forgets a heck of alot of deadly enounters don't even have a shot fired cuase the LEOs had advantages like positional or numbers. And even when that didn't stop the ball from rolling, such things as their vest and use of cover played a large part is saving their skins.

As I said, most of the time it's not done in a vaccum where one LEO dosn't have support in some form.

[David Armstrong]

Cops win not by how good a shot (or bad) most of the time cuase they have support.

Oh, I see now. Instead of those specific items you were trying to say were so important, now it is the simple fact that they are LE is the support that makes them win. Nice shift of position, and probably more accurate than your earlier claims.

David forgets a heck of alot of deadly enounters don't even have a shot fired cuase the LEOs had advantages like positional or numbers.

Please. David has probably forgot more about LE tactics and training and deadly force encounters than you've ever dreamed of, and if he did forget half of what he knew he'd still have more than twice as much as you, so you might want to reconsider a few things.

[Blackwater OPS]

David, if it's not training, back-up, or equipment, just what exactly is it that you think causes LE to win more often than not? Mindset?

[David Armstrong]

David, if it's not training, back-up, or equipment, just what exactly is it that you think causes LE to win more often than not? Mindset?

I don't think I've denied the training aspect. If I gave that impression excuse me, as I think that is a big part of it. But yes, mindset is the main player, IMO. And I say that because we see even before we got into all this neat tactical stuff, and had all this good equipment, we still won the huge majority of incidents. When police go into a situation they usually expect to win. Most people don't expect to win when they go up against the police.

I go far enough back in the business that I worked when there was no SWAT, we didn't wear vests, calling for back-up for anything other than a big emergency was considered wimpy, etc. Yet we still won. Some of the new toys and tactics have certainly made things easier, but I don't think they have chaged the outcomes that much.

[Deaf Smith]

You mean one does not train in order to get mindset? Or mindset is not taught at any LEO or other academy? Is mindset just something we are born with?

[Skyguy]

I go far enough back in the business that I worked when there was no SWAT, we didn't wear vests, calling for back-up for anything other than a big emergency was considered wimpy, etc. Yet we still won.

Absolutely!

Nowadays, it takes a politically correct, male/female SWAT team with negotiators, armored personel carriers, body armor, gas masks, tear gas, M4/MP5's, sub machine guns, snipers, flash bangs, etc.....to serve a warrant or make a pot bust. About 5 grand a pop. :)

At Columbine they should have sent in some 20 yr old marines or AB instead of the charade of SWAT guys that continued dancing around that school for three hours after the last shots were heard.
Total embarrassment.
.

[David Armstrong]

You mean one does not train in order to get mindset? Or mindset is not taught at any LEO or other academy? Is mindset just something we are born with?

Sigh, you're really trying to stretch it, deaf. And the sad part is I think you don't even realize how silly you sound. But, in order of the way you asked them: Sometimes. Maybe. It depends.
Again, this would be so much easier if you had just the slightest little bit of experience in this stuff you insist on talking about so much.