August 10, 2018, 08:07 AM | #26 | |
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August 10, 2018, 08:09 AM | #27 | |
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August 10, 2018, 10:11 AM | #28 | |
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People in the Obama administration DID push for more gun control. Some of it was stopped by Congress, most of it was stopped by other people in the administration telling those pushing for gun control to shut up about it, for now...they didn't want gun control pushed, at the time, because they feared the backlash against it would hamper getting Obama's other agenda's passed into law. (and, they were right_) They didn't give up, they just put gun control on the back burner in favor of other social issues, which was something the NRA, and the rest of us didn't expect them to do. And, yes, the panic buying surge did drop when Trump was elected. The reason is simple, and the same as the panic surge of buying before and during the Obama years. We expect Trump not to push gun control. He might, but its not what we expect. We expected Obama to push gun control, but despite what many of his people wanted, he didn't. The fact that we were surprised about that didn't make our expectations a lie, it just made them incorrect. LIES are intentional, errors are not. As to the NRA being the "voice of gunmakers", the only people I ever hear saying that are those seeking to show the NRA as something it is not. Never heard the NRA say "buy this gun" or even "buy any gun", only "you have a right to a gun, if you choose". Likewise, I've heard people say the NRA condones, even promotes murder, which, to me is an obvious lie, but they still say it, and worse, some people seem to believe it. Is the PGA the voice of golf club makers?? Is NASCAR the voice of the auto makers? Are any of the dozens (or more) organizations that promote a particular sport called the voice of the makers of the equipment used in that sport?? Not that I hear, only the NRA is so demonized. Is there a connection, a link, a relationship of some kind between the NRA and gun makers? Sure. But its NOT the one the anti gun shills claim it is. The NRA does not, and never did exist for the purpose of selling more guns to the public so that gun makers can profit.
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August 10, 2018, 10:33 AM | #29 | |
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You correctly inferred my meaning. You agree the NRA probably did influence Congress to block gun control in 2013. Is there some particular reason an extra dose of pedantry was required that I’m not seeing? |
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August 10, 2018, 10:45 AM | #30 |
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The NRA is what it is because of the battle they are fighting on our behalf. The anti-gun crowd may tell you they want "common sense" gun control, but rest assured they have a very different interpretation of that than you or I might. I remember listening to an interview of a leader of the Brady Campaign on NPR. He stated quite clearly that their goal was no civilian ownership of firearms. He said this will not happen overnight, but through incremental changes over the next few decades. Yes, maybe the NRA morphed, but for very good reason.
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August 10, 2018, 11:12 AM | #31 | ||||||
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Here is a history of the NRA:
https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra/ Quote:
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August 10, 2018, 11:16 AM | #32 |
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Most anti-gun voices have shed the common sense gun control dialogue and have gone toward more restrictive bans.
Some of the politicians that we here would consider radical are being rejected as not being radical enough. We don’t have to worry any more that The Republic or The Democracy will take our rights; the Corporatocracy will do that. |
August 10, 2018, 08:19 PM | #33 | |||||||
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In fact, Israel has some pretty restrictive laws on private possession and ownership of firearms. Quote:
All the best training in the world means nothing when you are unarmed. Quote:
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Do you really think that someone must be a "lawman" in order to carry a gun to protect themselves and their loved ones? Or that a certain level of mastery with firearms is a prerequisite to being able to carry one? Shame on you. Shame on you. Shame on you.
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August 10, 2018, 10:40 PM | #34 |
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dogtown, well stated. Who are these people? This is scary. I expect this foolishness from the general public and the morons I rub elbows with on the right coast. But; on a gun forum!
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August 10, 2018, 11:17 PM | #35 | |
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A fellow had an Israeli friend visit him in the US. The conversation turned to guns, and the Israeli was mystified about the "American obsession with owning guns". He wasn't against gun, he just didn't understand why we (as a people) felt such a need to own them. He then said, "if you are going to go through an area where you might need a gun, just go down to the armory and check out an Uzi. Then turn it back in when you're done." When his American friend explained "that's not possible under US law" the Israeli was astounded at "the foolishness" of it. I guess living somewhere like Israel gives one a different perspective on gun control...
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August 11, 2018, 08:24 AM | #36 | |||
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If Hillary won, that would be seen as a mandate for a full gun ban. The pressure would be enormous. So, why do you think the NRA is a voice of gun makers? That really was originated as gun control speak. It is a talking point meant to separate Fudds from the NRA. It works by alienating part time gun owners from the NRA message. It also works because the current NRA brass are fear mongers and are killing off membership with continued messages of fear. Too bad that we couldn’t get more people elected to turn away the fear message. Quote:
You have to remember the key talking points of anti-gunners. Do they support police having gun....yes. Do they support bodyguards having guns.....yes. Do they support armed security having guns....yes. Do they support armed security at sporting event/community events.....yep. Do they support complex licensing so ccw licenses can be limited to their circle of upstanding folks....yes. Do they support control through fees and pricing....yep. Do they support disarming criminals with search and seizure policies in criminal neighborhoods.....nope. So, what guns do they want banned. They want reasonably priced guns owned by average folks restricted. Restricted to a ban on commoners with little effort at reducing criminal or wealthy elite gun ownership. Last edited by Nathan; August 11, 2018 at 09:27 AM. |
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August 11, 2018, 09:45 AM | #37 | |
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I’m certain that a person that can achieve the requirements to become a high school algebra teacher can be taught to safely carry a gun if willing. We used to teach teenage conscripts to handle a gun safely against their will. We have the ability to teach people even better than law enforcement and the military. The NRA could probably get some highly competent teachers trained well if it weren’t so hamstringed by handwringing politicians and Fudds. Police will not be there to prevent you from becoming a victim. After you’ve become a victim, your iPhone cannot be dialed while it’s covered with your own blood (I know this personally). If you survive: your wounds will be treated, your statement will be taken, the assailant will be arrested and in a few days the person will be out of jail to do as they please. You are in charge of your own safety. You can: hire people to protect you, you can protect yourself or you can let an overworked police officer to look for your killer... |
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August 11, 2018, 10:08 AM | #38 | |
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This statement is 100% correct...
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August 11, 2018, 03:35 PM | #39 | ||||
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There are plenty of people in Israel who are legally carrying a gun in public, but they are not "just plain folks" like the gun owners in the United States. If you are legally carrying a gun in public in Israel you are (1) active duty military; or (2) a police officer; or (3) one of the select few* licensed to carry a firearm.
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August 11, 2018, 04:11 PM | #40 | |
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Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk |
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August 16, 2018, 10:49 AM | #41 |
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Well, I don't think NRA changing is the problem. The problem is society is changing. It wasn't that long ago that kids didn't take their shotgun to school and leave it in their truck for after school. As our society has become less parented by the parents and more by the government the people growing up now have lost touch with what it means to be a responsible citizen. The criminal justice system doesn't help the situation when kids are taught that nothing happens for criminal behavior. A slap on the wrist and a little time in lock up and you are out running with the bros again. Then there are "zero tolerance" policies where kids are suspended for even a minor scrap. When relatively good kids are sent to continued education they often fall in with all sorts of bad people.
Now I support the elimination of gun free zones for schools. I think that they just attract criminals. What we need is not for every teacher to be armed, but for arms to be available to administrators and other trusted people such as maintenance workers who are unpredictable in their routines. I don't even think every person that could be armed needs to carry. I believe hidden secure weapons that can be accessed only by authorized personnel during an emergency would suffice. No reason for a kindergarten teacher to carry a 38 in an ankle holster. Relying only on police response is delaying life saving help to school children in a crisis. Some talk about "common sense" gun control but they don't seem to have any of that good old common sense when considering proposals like the one I have outlined for arming schools. Guns can kill or be used to save life. Blindly insisting they can only do more harm than good is foolish. rc |
August 16, 2018, 07:10 PM | #42 | ||||||
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What on earth makes you think the custodian is more trustworthy? What makes you think an administrator is more trustworthy? After all the administrator used to be a teacher. Unbelievable. Quote:
When there is a need for an armed response RIGHT NOW...….oh wait how do I get past the bad guy to the gun locker and whats the combination? Again, unbelievable. Quote:
That's the dumbest comment yet. Either you support the Second Amendment or you don't. You don't. Quote:
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August 16, 2018, 08:56 PM | #43 |
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I don’t ever see a future where there’s widespread use of guns outside of resource officers.
Sure, there are some schools that allow armed staff but I’m sure that that is a rarity. Most ways of making a school more secure get opposed and shut down anyway. No one gives suggestions for anything that will have a chance of actually happening anyway. Do what’s left? Easy, ban specific firearms that are capable of firing rapidly. Not my view on the bans, just how it is. The NRA is the only organization of much magnitude that is even willing to defend gun rights. The most powerful companies in the world along with some of the most powerful governments around the world want our guns gone. A growing number of our own leaders and citizens want our guns gone... This all while fewer entities are on our side. Growing numbers of people consider the NRA a hate group. We should be standing together for all of our rights. Instead we choose to walk on eggshells, cling to an outdated document for protection on our way to bury our heads in the sand. |
August 21, 2018, 09:59 AM | #44 | ||||
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You mean the gun control lobby, which is a "industry lobby" since its function is to raise money for the political industry, mostly as a 501c3 tax deductible raised money channel into US politics -- and more than 90% funded by seven individuals and politically active foundations (all DNC trustees or bundlers) Quote:
We also saw a huge number of Democrats vocally and directly back DC in Heller, meaning a huge number of Democrat politicians were asserting the right to ban even revolvers from persons with background checks and training. You are talking about carry, when there was a major -- and until Heller successful efforts to ban the most common guns to even keep at home. Quote:
The largest mass school shooting in the US was with handgun. Quote:
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August 21, 2018, 10:05 AM | #45 | |
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It is correct to say that Heller was not NRA. NRA had been reticent to deal with court cases. But when it comes to legislation NRA is the only thing that has stood in the way the way of a lot of notable anti Second Amendment legislation |
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August 22, 2018, 01:49 PM | #46 |
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The NRA changed with the times. As Government became bigger and more intrusive, people who viewed the Constitution as a blank slate took over, had a "Government is always right" attitude, saw gun ownership as the cause of crime, the NRA had to meet those challenges.
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August 22, 2018, 11:25 PM | #47 | ||
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The NRA Political Victory Fund sent brochures to gun owners prior to the 2008 election:
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It is plausible IMO that the NRA was fear mongering, and the result was a huge number of weapons and ammunition were sold because of that behavior by the NRA. I agree with Doc Holliday the NRA morphed over time. Last edited by Colorado Redneck; August 23, 2018 at 12:25 AM. |
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August 23, 2018, 12:53 AM | #48 |
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Colorado Redneck, are you ignorant of how are government works or being deliberately deceptive?
The only reason Obama did not sign more bills limiting gun rights is because Congress did not send him more gun control bills to sign. Obama was a chairman of the Joyce Foundation even before he became a state senator. He supported assault weapons bans and super-restrictive gun laws in Illinois that not only registered every gun owner; but that entirely prohibited the ownership of handguns in urban areas. The nicest thing I can say about your commentary is you are ignorant as to your subject and unashamed of it. |
August 23, 2018, 10:37 AM | #49 |
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Political leaders tell us that they would take the guns away if they had the opportunity. Their opportunities don’t materialize or are blocked, then we get called out for fear mongering. Then it repeats. Then we get compared to hate groups for wanting to retain our rights. We should support the NRA.
Gun rights is one of those political land mines that no one wants to push real hard. If it remains an issue, both sides will use it for votes. Anything that can get votes will never be solved. But I think the scale is slightly leaning towards loosing rights at a minimum. Anyone with a mind that can comprehend knows exactly why the 2nd amendment exists and exactly what it says. It is one of the few political debates that could be put to rest, but it gives many politicians some mileage. Powerful leaders want the guns gone. Powerful nations want our guns gone. The most powerful and influential individuals want our guns gone. Immense corporations are want our guns gone and are actually exerting pressure on our rights. Celebrities are constantly campaigning against us. Our universities are wanting guns gone. Some of our government bodies have restricted gun rights severely. The majority of our own population wants guns gone. It’s not fear mongering, it’s just reality. Last edited by rickyrick; August 23, 2018 at 10:46 AM. |
August 23, 2018, 10:41 AM | #50 |
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My post points out the fact the NRA was selling an extremely biased political message. So you deny the organisation has morhped into a very political storefront?
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