1911 "nicking" bullets during feeding?

ScottRiqui · January 26, 2013, 11:52 PM

I have a full-size Remington R1 1911, and while cycling some dummy rounds with the Missouri Bullets 230 gr LRN, I noticed that when I eject the cartridge after chambering it, there's a nick on the bullet. With the OAL at 1.25", the nick is right on the tip of the bullet. As I shorten the OAL, the placement of the nick moves away from the tip, further down the shoulder, but it's still there.

The ammo still cycles and chambers fine, and I've never had a problem with 230 gr round-nose ammo in this gun, but this same gun won't feed 185 gr LSWC worth a damn, so I'm wondering if there is some underlying problem, and it's only the rounder profile of the 230 gr bullets that's keeping them from jamming up the way the 185s do.

The nick is about 2mm wide, and looks like the nose of the bullet is either catching up momentarily on the top of the feed ramp, or the rearmost edge of the barrel.

The magazine is a Wilson Combat 47D.

1911Tuner · January 27, 2013, 05:58 AM

It's the lower edge of the barrel ramp.

What's happening is that the bullet nose is brushing the barrel ramp instead of gliding over the top corner and lifting it slightly. The soft lead contacts the sharp edge, and gouges it. It's not a major issue as long as it feeds and you don't hear a "Ka-Chunk" sound as the slide goes home.

Could be due to a little "wrong" in the feed ramp angle...the barrel ramp angle...or too little gap between the top corner of the feed ramp and the lower edge of the barrel ramp. With the barrel pushed as far back in the frame as it can go, that gap should be .030-.035 inch. It can be a little more...a little...but not less.

polyphemus · January 27, 2013, 12:24 PM

Two questions please.
Can we see a picture of the damage to the bullet?
How is the the issue then resolved?

1911Tuner · January 27, 2013, 02:37 PM

Quote:

How is the the issue then resolved?

As long as it's not causing a problem, it's not worth fiddlin' with.

polyphemus · January 27, 2013, 02:54 PM

Much obliged.This one's tricky and my first thought was try another barrel because modifying the feed ramp is a recipe for disaster and for that matter
the barrel's too.There's some virtue to using the ammunition the pistol was
designed for.

ShootingNut · January 27, 2013, 04:39 PM

Have you tried a C.O.L. of 1.260 with your 230 gr. LRN?
Might be worth a try if you haven't.
SN

Dashunde · January 27, 2013, 04:51 PM

Just tossing this out there...
During regular operation there would be no bullet remaining in the case, perhaps the extra length of the complete dummy rounds are hitting a sharp edge on the inside around the port?

Have you tried cycling one in normally then ejecting it very slowly to be certain whether its getting damaged on the way in or out?

ScottRiqui · January 27, 2013, 05:30 PM

After I saw the nick the first time, I was careful during the next hand-cycling to let the round 'dribble' out of the ejection port. It's definitely getting the 'nick' during feeding.

I'll try an OAL of 1.26", just to see if it makes a difference. I probably won't invest much more time with it, though - this is just a range gun, and as long as it continues to feed 230 gr LRN reliably, I don't mind if they get a little nick on them on their way into the chamber. I'll just save the 185s for a different gun.

Thanks so much for all the replies.

1911Tuner · January 27, 2013, 06:11 PM

Quote:

this is just a range gun, and as long as it continues to feed 230 gr LRN reliably, I don't mind if they get a little nick on them on their way into the chamber. I

There ya go. Lead gets nicked up pretty easily. As long as it'll run...run it.

ScottRiqui · January 27, 2013, 06:55 PM

Just loaded up some more ammo for it. Lengthening the OAL to 1.26" leaves the nick right on the tip of the nose, but it's bigger than before - almost more of a 'gouge' than a nick. The round still chambered, though. Going to 1.19" leaves me with a much fainter mark, about halfway between the tip of the bullet and the case mouth.

I'll take it to the range in the next few days, and if everything feeds, I'll just leave it alone. While it would be nice to have one of those "feeds absolutely anything" 1911s, I have no problem sticking with 230 LRN if it works.

ShootingNut · January 27, 2013, 08:19 PM

I had a nice Smith & Wesson 1911, but got tired of having
hiccups with ammo. Traded her for one of those "eat anything" .45's,
an XDM that does eat anything.

lamarw · January 27, 2013, 08:27 PM

You might want to mention this to Remington when you send the pistol for its first year annual physical (Platinum Plan).

Hopefully, Remington will remmy the problem. It does not happen with my R1.

ScottRiqui · February 8, 2013, 08:04 PM

Well, I went back to the range, and even with LRN, it's failing to feed about once out of every 15-20 rounds. I've called Remington and will be sending it back tomorrow.

Looking at some other threads, I think I may have found something contributing to the problem, *if* I did the test correctly.

With the slide off, I set the barrel in the frame and slid it backward as far as it would go, and there's virtually no gap at all between the edge of the barrel ramp and the top of the frame ramp. I've read that there's supposed to be about a 1/32" gap, but I don't know if that's the case for all 1911s.

Hopefully it'll all be resolved when it comes back.

ScottRiqui · February 13, 2013, 11:23 AM

Okay, the gun should be back with Remington now. I was surprised at how long it took me to find a UPS "Customer Service Center", rather than just a drop box, UPS Store, or Alliance shipping partner.

Hopefully I should know in a week or so what the tech found out and what they're going to do with the gun.

I didn't notice the lack of gap between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp until after I had talked to Remington, initiated the claim and arranged the return. Surely, that gap is something that the tech will look for, or notice on his own, right? I don't need to call up and add the new information to the repair claim?

polyphemus · February 13, 2013, 01:32 PM

"I've read that there's supposed to be about a 1/32" gap, but I don't know if that's the case for all 1911s."
It is the case and there's no need to strip the pistol to check that,I think it would be routine inspection prior to purchase.I've had a gunshop employee try
to sell me pistols (plural) which stopped short of battery and show me how they
did (go) by slamming the slide.A few similar stories too,can't beat doing some
homework before you walk in and then resisting the pressure to buy until you
are satisfied.

ScottRiqui · February 13, 2013, 01:38 PM

Eh - it's my first 1911, and I'll admit that I didn't know that I was supposed to check the ramp-to-barrel gap on a brand new gun. Next time I'll know.

ScottRiqui · February 19, 2013, 08:44 AM

Well, the pistol arrived from Remington yesterday afternoon, so the total round trip was just under one week. I certainly can't complain about that.

Looking at the paperwork that was returned with the gun, the technician replaced two grip screw bushings, as well as the slide stop. I'm not sure what either of those had to do with the problem, but if they want to throw new parts on the gun for free, I'll let them.

His notes also said that the "feed ramp was rough" and that he polished it. Looking at the ramp/barrel gap, it looks like it might be a tiny bit wider than it was before. I'm taking it to the range after work today, so we'll see how it does.

Just on a whim, I also packed a box of the 185 gr LSWC rounds that were causing the gun to choke so badly a few months ago. I had given up being able to use those bullets with this 1911, but maybe after this recent work I'll have better luck.

polyphemus · February 19, 2013, 11:54 AM

Thanks for posting the factory report,it is interesting.
He polished the feed ramp,really?I find that odd seeing as production pistols
don't have a polished ramp and are"rough".Also did you check barrel play and
clearance?Was the slide stop hard to work in and out before?
I'm not sure how critical polishing the surface is,the pistol should work just fine
(and does)if the surface is correctly machined to specs.
The grip screws,yep Troublesome buggers they can be.

ScottRiqui · February 19, 2013, 09:41 PM

Well, went to the range today and put about 100 rounds through it in 230 gr lead, 230 gr FMJ, and 185 gr LSWC.

The 230 grain bullets feed fine now. The 185s are still a little "iffy" - on about one round in 10, the slide won't quite go all the way back into battery. I can thumb it closed the rest of the way and it will shoot then. I'm not too upset about it - I'll just save the 185s for a different gun. The owner's manual says that the gun is meant for 230 gr FMJ, so I really can't complain to Remington that it won't feed semi-wadcutters.

The tech didn't fully polish the ramp - it was just smoothed out a little bit. Most of the factory finish is still on the ramp, so I know he didn't remove much material at all.

The strangest thing is that the trigger is MUCH better now. It feels significantly lighter, and not as "creepy" or "draggy". Can changing the slide stop pin affect the trigger pull? I didn't have any problems with the slide stop pin before, but maybe Remington just re-designed the stop pin profile for some reason and is changing them out on guns that come back for service.

There still doesn't seem to be much of a gap between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp - barely a sliver. But the tech was right there, so he must have thought it was okay.

polyphemus · February 20, 2013, 07:53 AM

1911's were designed to fire .45acp 230 grain FMJ so it is hard to complain
when they balk at something else,personally I wouldn't even know how any of
my pistols handle other types of ammo.Why the slide hangs short of battery on the 185's and not on the 230's stumps me but the barrel should have
some play and show a small.015"+- gap to the feed ramp.I suspect that the
smoother trigger action is simply proper lubrication,it makes a noticeable difference.Other than that shoot the daylights out of it and good luck.

January 26, 2013, 11:52 PM	#1
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	1911 "nicking" bullets during feeding? I have a full-size Remington R1 1911, and while cycling some dummy rounds with the Missouri Bullets 230 gr LRN, I noticed that when I eject the cartridge after chambering it, there's a nick on the bullet. With the OAL at 1.25", the nick is right on the tip of the bullet. As I shorten the OAL, the placement of the nick moves away from the tip, further down the shoulder, but it's still there. The ammo still cycles and chambers fine, and I've never had a problem with 230 gr round-nose ammo in this gun, but this same gun won't feed 185 gr LSWC worth a damn, so I'm wondering if there is some underlying problem, and it's only the rounder profile of the 230 gr bullets that's keeping them from jamming up the way the 185s do. The nick is about 2mm wide, and looks like the nose of the bullet is either catching up momentarily on the top of the feed ramp, or the rearmost edge of the barrel. The magazine is a Wilson Combat 47D.

January 27, 2013, 05:58 AM	#2
1911Tuner Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: NC Piedmont/Foothills Posts: 666	Nick It's the lower edge of the barrel ramp. What's happening is that the bullet nose is brushing the barrel ramp instead of gliding over the top corner and lifting it slightly. The soft lead contacts the sharp edge, and gouges it. It's not a major issue as long as it feeds and you don't hear a "Ka-Chunk" sound as the slide goes home. Could be due to a little "wrong" in the feed ramp angle...the barrel ramp angle...or too little gap between the top corner of the feed ramp and the lower edge of the barrel ramp. With the barrel pushed as far back in the frame as it can go, that gap should be .030-.035 inch. It can be a little more...a little...but not less. __________________ If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck

January 27, 2013, 12:24 PM	#3
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	Two questions please. Can we see a picture of the damage to the bullet? How is the the issue then resolved?

January 27, 2013, 02:54 PM	#5
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	Much obliged.This one's tricky and my first thought was try another barrel because modifying the feed ramp is a recipe for disaster and for that matter the barrel's too.There's some virtue to using the ammunition the pistol was designed for.

January 27, 2013, 04:39 PM	#6
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	Have you tried a C.O.L. of 1.260 with your 230 gr. LRN? Might be worth a try if you haven't. SN

January 27, 2013, 04:51 PM	#7
Dashunde Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Posts: 2,018	Just tossing this out there... During regular operation there would be no bullet remaining in the case, perhaps the extra length of the complete dummy rounds are hitting a sharp edge on the inside around the port? Have you tried cycling one in normally then ejecting it very slowly to be certain whether its getting damaged on the way in or out?

January 27, 2013, 05:30 PM	#8
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	After I saw the nick the first time, I was careful during the next hand-cycling to let the round 'dribble' out of the ejection port. It's definitely getting the 'nick' during feeding. I'll try an OAL of 1.26", just to see if it makes a difference. I probably won't invest much more time with it, though - this is just a range gun, and as long as it continues to feed 230 gr LRN reliably, I don't mind if they get a little nick on them on their way into the chamber. I'll just save the 185s for a different gun. Thanks so much for all the replies.

January 27, 2013, 06:55 PM	#10
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Just loaded up some more ammo for it. Lengthening the OAL to 1.26" leaves the nick right on the tip of the nose, but it's bigger than before - almost more of a 'gouge' than a nick. The round still chambered, though. Going to 1.19" leaves me with a much fainter mark, about halfway between the tip of the bullet and the case mouth. I'll take it to the range in the next few days, and if everything feeds, I'll just leave it alone. While it would be nice to have one of those "feeds absolutely anything" 1911s, I have no problem sticking with 230 LRN if it works.

January 27, 2013, 08:19 PM	#11
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	I had a nice Smith & Wesson 1911, but got tired of having hiccups with ammo. Traded her for one of those "eat anything" .45's, an XDM that does eat anything.

January 27, 2013, 08:27 PM	#12
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	You might want to mention this to Remington when you send the pistol for its first year annual physical (Platinum Plan). Hopefully, Remington will remmy the problem. It does not happen with my R1.

February 8, 2013, 08:04 PM	#13
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Well, I went back to the range, and even with LRN, it's failing to feed about once out of every 15-20 rounds. I've called Remington and will be sending it back tomorrow. Looking at some other threads, I think I may have found something contributing to the problem, if I did the test correctly. With the slide off, I set the barrel in the frame and slid it backward as far as it would go, and there's virtually no gap at all between the edge of the barrel ramp and the top of the frame ramp. I've read that there's supposed to be about a 1/32" gap, but I don't know if that's the case for all 1911s. Hopefully it'll all be resolved when it comes back.

February 13, 2013, 11:23 AM	#14
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Okay, the gun should be back with Remington now. I was surprised at how long it took me to find a UPS "Customer Service Center", rather than just a drop box, UPS Store, or Alliance shipping partner. Hopefully I should know in a week or so what the tech found out and what they're going to do with the gun. I didn't notice the lack of gap between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp until after I had talked to Remington, initiated the claim and arranged the return. Surely, that gap is something that the tech will look for, or notice on his own, right? I don't need to call up and add the new information to the repair claim?

February 13, 2013, 01:32 PM	#15
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	"I've read that there's supposed to be about a 1/32" gap, but I don't know if that's the case for all 1911s." It is the case and there's no need to strip the pistol to check that,I think it would be routine inspection prior to purchase.I've had a gunshop employee try to sell me pistols (plural) which stopped short of battery and show me how they did (go) by slamming the slide.A few similar stories too,can't beat doing some homework before you walk in and then resisting the pressure to buy until you are satisfied.

February 13, 2013, 01:38 PM	#16
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Eh - it's my first 1911, and I'll admit that I didn't know that I was supposed to check the ramp-to-barrel gap on a brand new gun. Next time I'll know.

February 19, 2013, 08:44 AM	#17
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Well, the pistol arrived from Remington yesterday afternoon, so the total round trip was just under one week. I certainly can't complain about that. Looking at the paperwork that was returned with the gun, the technician replaced two grip screw bushings, as well as the slide stop. I'm not sure what either of those had to do with the problem, but if they want to throw new parts on the gun for free, I'll let them. His notes also said that the "feed ramp was rough" and that he polished it. Looking at the ramp/barrel gap, it looks like it might be a tiny bit wider than it was before. I'm taking it to the range after work today, so we'll see how it does. Just on a whim, I also packed a box of the 185 gr LSWC rounds that were causing the gun to choke so badly a few months ago. I had given up being able to use those bullets with this 1911, but maybe after this recent work I'll have better luck.

February 19, 2013, 11:54 AM	#18
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	Thanks for posting the factory report,it is interesting. He polished the feed ramp,really?I find that odd seeing as production pistols don't have a polished ramp and are"rough".Also did you check barrel play and clearance?Was the slide stop hard to work in and out before? I'm not sure how critical polishing the surface is,the pistol should work just fine (and does)if the surface is correctly machined to specs. The grip screws,yep Troublesome buggers they can be.

February 19, 2013, 09:41 PM	#19
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	Well, went to the range today and put about 100 rounds through it in 230 gr lead, 230 gr FMJ, and 185 gr LSWC. The 230 grain bullets feed fine now. The 185s are still a little "iffy" - on about one round in 10, the slide won't quite go all the way back into battery. I can thumb it closed the rest of the way and it will shoot then. I'm not too upset about it - I'll just save the 185s for a different gun. The owner's manual says that the gun is meant for 230 gr FMJ, so I really can't complain to Remington that it won't feed semi-wadcutters. The tech didn't fully polish the ramp - it was just smoothed out a little bit. Most of the factory finish is still on the ramp, so I know he didn't remove much material at all. The strangest thing is that the trigger is MUCH better now. It feels significantly lighter, and not as "creepy" or "draggy". Can changing the slide stop pin affect the trigger pull? I didn't have any problems with the slide stop pin before, but maybe Remington just re-designed the stop pin profile for some reason and is changing them out on guns that come back for service. There still doesn't seem to be much of a gap between the frame ramp and the barrel ramp - barely a sliver. But the tech was right there, so he must have thought it was okay.

February 20, 2013, 07:53 AM	#20
polyphemus Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2012 Posts: 1,055	1911's were designed to fire .45acp 230 grain FMJ so it is hard to complain when they balk at something else,personally I wouldn't even know how any of my pistols handle other types of ammo.Why the slide hangs short of battery on the 185's and not on the 230's stumps me but the barrel should have some play and show a small.015"+- gap to the feed ramp.I suspect that the smoother trigger action is simply proper lubrication,it makes a noticeable difference.Other than that shoot the daylights out of it and good luck.