250 Ackley improved? - Page 2

Lohman446 · September 9, 2017, 10:14 AM

I get the concept that .257 Roberts is more likely to be found than the AI but I highly doubt the argument it would be "easy" to find on a shelf in most places without ordering it in.

If being able to walk into the local store and find it is a requirement stay with the .243. If being able to order ammo relatively easy the .257 is there. Obviously I don't live in the land of long range hunting either though.

Don Fischer · September 9, 2017, 10:49 AM

I don't think I understand the idea behind improving a cartridge, why? If you wanted something like either a 250 or 257 improved, why not just go with a 25-06? I don't know what either of the two improved have over the 25-06. I've wanted a 250-3000 for a long time but simply can't afford one. I do have a 25-06 and if I wanted something of more power I would not improve it, I'd step up to a 6.5x06, in fact I did!

dieselscout80 · September 9, 2017, 01:15 PM

For me I want to use my current short action as a starting point.

HiBC · September 9, 2017, 02:04 PM

First,the rifle idea is like which person attracts you or which dog do you like.It does not HAVE to make perfect sense to anyone but you.
And no matter what you would like to build,you will always find some folks who will tell you its a bad idea. Sometimes they are even right!!
And there will always be people who will tell you to spend your money to build the rifle they WISH they could build....but don't.

My 2 cents. On its own,the 250 Savage AI is an interesting idea.It would be a surpringly efficient delightful antelope and deer rifle......IMO up to about 350 yds.

I've hunted with a 257 AI for over 20 years.I love it. Longest shot was 430 yds.Aimed at boiler room and hit a neck shot.We can't really know what breeze bullet will fly through over a quarter of a mile of air,and even a 115 gr Ballistic Tip is not the best wind bucker. A BC of .430 and 3100 fps is a bit better than what a .250 AI will do. I make no claim to being a wizard at reading wind.First round cold barrel wind estimation in antelope country gets more "iffy" by a lot with each 100 yds past 300.Its really "iffy" at 600.
FWIW,aiming at the heart/lung and hitting the neck was luck. Luck can go either way.That shot gave me a dose of reality.

I suggest studying the long range ballistics. See what the numbers are at 600 yds. If you talk with most hunting bullet manufacturers,someplace around 2000 fps is minimumto get them to expand and perform.That is also about minimum velocity for temporary cavitation to begin to be a factor in trauma.

So see how faraway you have 2000 fps + and that might be the limits for good game performance.

I wasn't there for the 600 yd shot with the 100 gr bullet. Maybe true.Far more 600 yd shots are claimed than made. Was it lasered? Estimated?
I'dseriously take the 600 yd capability with a grain of salt. Its a very good 300 yd cartridge.Maybe a bit more.

If you want a 250 AI,go for it! Have fun! It will be delightful.

Consider, the bullet manufacturers don't put a lot of resources into 25 cal. I really like the 115 Ballistic tips.IMO,about the best available.Its real good.

But there are better long range bullets in 6mm and 6.5 mm. .244 vs .257 vs .264. The 6.5 is only .007 larger. If I were doing it over...I'd think about that.

The 6.5 Creedmore is up and coming. Starline is making brass.Its used at 1000 yd target shooting.Its about the same package as your .250AI.

In that M-70,a standard +P 257 Roberts load will probably give you the ballistics of your .250 AI. Brass might be a little easier and no fireforming.Still a fine,unique "classy" round.

But,doggone,a .250 AI is a fine idea.Follow your own trail!!

603Country · September 9, 2017, 07:32 PM

A 257AI is ballistically just about equal to the 260 Rem and 6.5CM. If the 250 AI is about equal to the 257AI, just get a 260 or a CM and be done. And you will then be able to also shoot heavier bullets if you want to.

Art Eatman · September 9, 2017, 07:42 PM

I'll bet that the OP's question was answered, way back those many years ago.

ThomasT · September 9, 2017, 09:20 PM

Yes but it is a Rite of passage and an initiation to be a Newbe and raise a Zombie thread. You should know that by now.

std7mag · September 9, 2017, 10:16 PM

True, but i don't own any socks or underwear that old...

HiBC · September 10, 2017, 03:31 AM

OK,to Dieselscout
Probably better to start a new thread next time.

So you have an unfired Rem 700 in .250 Savage And a high round count 243.
Some might say an unfired .250 Savage Rem 700 is uncommon and potentially desirable unmodified.You might be throwing money away to alter it.
But I'm unsure of the classic/collector value of Rem 700's. I don't know.
I'd check twist.Slower than 1 in 10 does not do well (generally) with bullets over 100 gr.

You will find the 6mm bullet selection to be better than the .257 bullet selection.Boldly go .007 larger than 257 and you have the 6.5 bullets to choose from. Hmmmm!

What I might do is start by figuring out what you want to use the rifle for.What target? How far? Study all the cool bullets,Ballistics,etc and decide what bullet you want to shoot,and how fast do you want to shoot it.
We can start there.Just an FYI,Starline is making 6.5 Creedmoor brass.

Don Fischer · September 10, 2017, 12:01 PM

A friend of mine has a 250 AI and I have shot it. Shoot's alright but doesn't chamber a round to smoothly. In the past I did have time's I'd though about an Ackley Improved round but have never done it. People here claiming the Robert's is the way to go but it seem's to me I read where Ackley himself said the best improved round he did was the 250-3000. Something about the gain in velocity over the original was greater than any other he'd done.

I also read recently hoe the Ackley design will increase case life because the case doesn't streath as much on firing. It was suggested you neck size the case until if can't get into the chamber anymore then FL size. Well if you have your FL die set to partial size and fit the careridge to the chamber, that will limit case streach on firing as well. But using the FL die adjusted to you chamber and a neck size collet die you can really reduce streatch. By far the most streatch in a case that fits the chamber come's in FL sizing as you pull the case back over the expander. Next time you do it, measure a case befor and after FL sizing, big difference. That's why you should not bother trimming the case's until after you FL size.

HiBC · September 10, 2017, 02:41 PM

That partial sizing stuff opens its own can of worms.All it does is skip the shoulder bump.
Figure the trig and over the case diameters,partial sizing makes essentially no difference
If you squeeze a banana it gets longer.Same with squeezing down brass.Partial sizing leaves the effect on the shoulder to chance. I want my shoulders bumped and restored.Just not more than necessary.

September 9, 2017, 02:04 PM	#29
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	First,the rifle idea is like which person attracts you or which dog do you like.It does not HAVE to make perfect sense to anyone but you. And no matter what you would like to build,you will always find some folks who will tell you its a bad idea. Sometimes they are even right!! And there will always be people who will tell you to spend your money to build the rifle they WISH they could build....but don't. My 2 cents. On its own,the 250 Savage AI is an interesting idea.It would be a surpringly efficient delightful antelope and deer rifle......IMO up to about 350 yds. I've hunted with a 257 AI for over 20 years.I love it. Longest shot was 430 yds.Aimed at boiler room and hit a neck shot.We can't really know what breeze bullet will fly through over a quarter of a mile of air,and even a 115 gr Ballistic Tip is not the best wind bucker. A BC of .430 and 3100 fps is a bit better than what a .250 AI will do. I make no claim to being a wizard at reading wind.First round cold barrel wind estimation in antelope country gets more "iffy" by a lot with each 100 yds past 300.Its really "iffy" at 600. FWIW,aiming at the heart/lung and hitting the neck was luck. Luck can go either way.That shot gave me a dose of reality. I suggest studying the long range ballistics. See what the numbers are at 600 yds. If you talk with most hunting bullet manufacturers,someplace around 2000 fps is minimumto get them to expand and perform.That is also about minimum velocity for temporary cavitation to begin to be a factor in trauma. So see how faraway you have 2000 fps + and that might be the limits for good game performance. I wasn't there for the 600 yd shot with the 100 gr bullet. Maybe true.Far more 600 yd shots are claimed than made. Was it lasered? Estimated? I'dseriously take the 600 yd capability with a grain of salt. Its a very good 300 yd cartridge.Maybe a bit more. If you want a 250 AI,go for it! Have fun! It will be delightful. Consider, the bullet manufacturers don't put a lot of resources into 25 cal. I really like the 115 Ballistic tips.IMO,about the best available.Its real good. But there are better long range bullets in 6mm and 6.5 mm. .244 vs .257 vs .264. The 6.5 is only .007 larger. If I were doing it over...I'd think about that. The 6.5 Creedmore is up and coming. Starline is making brass.Its used at 1000 yd target shooting.Its about the same package as your .250AI. In that M-70,a standard +P 257 Roberts load will probably give you the ballistics of your .250 AI. Brass might be a little easier and no fireforming.Still a fine,unique "classy" round. But,doggone,a .250 AI is a fine idea.Follow your own trail!! Last edited by HiBC; September 9, 2017 at 02:12 PM.

September 9, 2017, 10:14 AM	#26
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	I get the concept that .257 Roberts is more likely to be found than the AI but I highly doubt the argument it would be "easy" to find on a shelf in most places without ordering it in. If being able to walk into the local store and find it is a requirement stay with the .243. If being able to order ammo relatively easy the .257 is there. Obviously I don't live in the land of long range hunting either though.

September 9, 2017, 10:49 AM	#27
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I don't think I understand the idea behind improving a cartridge, why? If you wanted something like either a 250 or 257 improved, why not just go with a 25-06? I don't know what either of the two improved have over the 25-06. I've wanted a 250-3000 for a long time but simply can't afford one. I do have a 25-06 and if I wanted something of more power I would not improve it, I'd step up to a 6.5x06, in fact I did!

September 9, 2017, 01:15 PM	#28
dieselscout80 Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2016 Posts: 6	For me I want to use my current short action as a starting point.

September 9, 2017, 07:32 PM	#30
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	A 257AI is ballistically just about equal to the 260 Rem and 6.5CM. If the 250 AI is about equal to the 257AI, just get a 260 or a CM and be done. And you will then be able to also shoot heavier bullets if you want to.

September 9, 2017, 07:42 PM	#31
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I'll bet that the OP's question was answered, way back those many years ago.

September 9, 2017, 09:20 PM	#32
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Yes but it is a Rite of passage and an initiation to be a Newbe and raise a Zombie thread. You should know that by now.

September 9, 2017, 10:16 PM	#33
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	True, but i don't own any socks or underwear that old...

September 10, 2017, 03:31 AM	#34
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	OK,to Dieselscout Probably better to start a new thread next time. So you have an unfired Rem 700 in .250 Savage And a high round count 243. Some might say an unfired .250 Savage Rem 700 is uncommon and potentially desirable unmodified.You might be throwing money away to alter it. But I'm unsure of the classic/collector value of Rem 700's. I don't know. I'd check twist.Slower than 1 in 10 does not do well (generally) with bullets over 100 gr. You will find the 6mm bullet selection to be better than the .257 bullet selection.Boldly go .007 larger than 257 and you have the 6.5 bullets to choose from. Hmmmm! What I might do is start by figuring out what you want to use the rifle for.What target? How far? Study all the cool bullets,Ballistics,etc and decide what bullet you want to shoot,and how fast do you want to shoot it. We can start there.Just an FYI,Starline is making 6.5 Creedmoor brass.

September 10, 2017, 12:01 PM	#35
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	A friend of mine has a 250 AI and I have shot it. Shoot's alright but doesn't chamber a round to smoothly. In the past I did have time's I'd though about an Ackley Improved round but have never done it. People here claiming the Robert's is the way to go but it seem's to me I read where Ackley himself said the best improved round he did was the 250-3000. Something about the gain in velocity over the original was greater than any other he'd done. I also read recently hoe the Ackley design will increase case life because the case doesn't streath as much on firing. It was suggested you neck size the case until if can't get into the chamber anymore then FL size. Well if you have your FL die set to partial size and fit the careridge to the chamber, that will limit case streach on firing as well. But using the FL die adjusted to you chamber and a neck size collet die you can really reduce streatch. By far the most streatch in a case that fits the chamber come's in FL sizing as you pull the case back over the expander. Next time you do it, measure a case befor and after FL sizing, big difference. That's why you should not bother trimming the case's until after you FL size.

September 10, 2017, 02:41 PM	#36
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	That partial sizing stuff opens its own can of worms.All it does is skip the shoulder bump. Figure the trig and over the case diameters,partial sizing makes essentially no difference If you squeeze a banana it gets longer.Same with squeezing down brass.Partial sizing leaves the effect on the shoulder to chance. I want my shoulders bumped and restored.Just not more than necessary.