.44 cal 1977 Navy Colt, barrel marked COM

RobertoJ · February 20, 2010, 02:45 PM

Hi there....

I am a pack rat and as such, many years ago, I was given what appears to be a Navy Colt replica, in .44 cal. I stashed it away because I never had an interest in blackpowder.

As far as I can tell, it doesn't look like it has been fired. Is either that or it was cleaned very well before giving it to me.

However, the screw slots are all messed up as in "somebody played a lot with me". I took it apart and the trigger/bolt spring is broken and the cylinder has rotation marks.

I have been able to ascertain that it has the "provisional" Gardone proof and the blackpowder proof for Gardone & Brescia and that it was made in 1977 (it has an "AC" mark).

It has a 7.5 inch octagon blued barrel with a single post (what appears to be brass) front sight (the rear sight is a notch in the hammer), brass frame and what appears to be walnut grips. The brass frame appears to be somewhat roughly finished at the "joints".

As you hold the revolver by the grips, the barrel on the right hand side reads "CAL .44 NAVY MODEL MADE IN ITALY" and in the barrel, underneath the loading lever is marked with the letters "COM".

Does anybody know who manufactured this revolver? I am trying to determine that to know how to order parts.

I do not know if I will get around to fire it but, I would like to restore it to a decent condition.

Can the brass frame be polished to remove imperfections? What should I be watching for in determining if this is a "worthy" piece?

Any and all information will be appreciated.

Thank you.

mykeal · February 20, 2010, 04:02 PM

Unfortunately the .44 cal combined with a brass frame on an 1851 Navy means it's not worth much; it may be rehabbed to be a fine shooter but it won't ever have any material value. It's not a replica of anything that Colt, or anyone else in the Civil War era, ever produced. There are tens of thousands of such guns, many of which have been damaged by overpowering the loads; they are all generally the least expensive (new price) of any cap and ball revolvers.

RobertoJ · February 20, 2010, 04:59 PM

thank you!......this is what I call bad news and good news! obviously, the bad news is that it is not worth much but, I suspected as much so, no surprises there......now, let's see if this puppy can be rehabbed and passed on.

Now, if anybody knows who made it and where I can get the parts for it....

Thanks again for your response.

Hawg · February 20, 2010, 07:33 PM

bprevolver might know. Drop him a pm.

Doc Hoy · February 20, 2010, 09:30 PM

Might also want to call either VTI Gun Parts 860-435-8068 or Dixie Gun Works 800-238-6785 for replacement parts. VTI folks are friendlier but Dixie has an excellent stock.

arcticap · February 21, 2010, 07:15 PM

When it comes to some of the unknown Italian revolver makers, one of the only assumptions that anyone can take for granted is that it was probably produced by a licensed Italian gunsmith or gunsmithing outfit that was registered. The fact that it was sent to the Italian proofhouse means that there's some record somewhere in Italy which we don't have access to. Even if we did, the chances are that we might learn that the raw frame and parts were probably produced by one of the major manufacturers and then the rest of the revolver was assembled & finished by a smaller gunsmithing outfit who contracted to export it. For the most part, many of the parts are interchangable with some hand fitting being necessary in some cases depending on who the original manufacturer was I guess. Some parts may fit right in and others may need a lot of work.

Read the following short thread to understand how difficult it is to determine what the trademark initials on some of the older revolvers actually represents.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...light=database

RobertoJ · February 21, 2010, 08:39 PM

Thank you all, that thread was a treasure trove of data!

I have decided to see if I can find the spring and screws and try to restore it to a like new condition and maybe fire it, or maybe save it for the next generation.

Again, thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond.

sebou · March 3, 2010, 02:48 PM

Hello,
RobertoJ : I'm interesting about your searching.
I guess i saw one time this marks (COM) over a Colt 1851 Navy, but long time ago. Could you put there some pics from your revolver, with marking, please. Maybe i could give you some help.
Thanks,
Seb

Doc Hoy · March 3, 2010, 04:37 PM

If you are able to put this question (What or who is C.O.M.?) to rest, a lot of folks on this forum will be very happy.

Tnx,

sebou · March 4, 2010, 09:26 AM

lol,
yes, sometimes markings over revolver are not the same. As you know, it depending models made, date, serial number, distributor, and the canon made or not by the manufacturer. All marks are important and it's needed to compare with the other manufacturer list i have.

I don't missed all to give some new info about COM.
Seb

madcratebuilder · March 4, 2010, 09:59 AM

Welcome to the forum Seb.

COM is a mark that has not been tied to a maker as far as I know. The brass frame 51 Navy clones in both .44 and .36 are about the most common and least expensive revolver you can find.

I think you idea of restoring is fine. The brass can be filed and/or sanded, then polished. Re-bluing of the steel is fairly easy and inexpensive. As far as the screw heads, that's a common problem from owners not using the correct hollow ground screwdrivers during disassemble. If they are not chewed up to bad you may be able to dress them with a small file and re-blue. As far as replacement parts I would order for a Pietta model and see if the can be made to fit. Most replacement parts do need some fitting. Things like screws are the same in most cases, springs are close. Problems are hammers with different diameter holes, cylinder length, arbor diameter.

If all you need are screws and a few springs, maybe a new hand I think it well be a fun project. Take photos and keep us posted on your progress.

Doc Hoy · March 4, 2010, 01:28 PM

Sebou,

I lived in Italy for a while and I remember that it was not uncommon to have manufactured commercially available items marked with initials which represent a professional group. Some were quasi governmental, others were best described as guilds.

It seemed to me at the time, (Early 80s) that the groups were formed for much the same reason as the "Grange" was formed in the US. It provided a bit of standardization, created an economy of scale to level prices and costs, and gave the group some power to influence either the government or the market.

I remember ONC which meant "Opera Naccionale de Combattante" which was a military and police veteran's group which got involved in security issues. I also remember COM standing for "Commune" which was a marking used on Wine when sold in bulk. (We bought it in bulk because we drank it in bulk).

Wine that was marked "COM" could not be marked with any other individual vintner's label.

I wonder if COM on our pistols is akin to that kind of marking.

sebou · March 6, 2010, 04:15 AM

hi friends,
ok, nice idea to the COM kind of marking, why not...

Doc, i know a little bit Italia, cause my parents are. I went this summer. lol

Well, i have found something about COM. Not really nice for our question about who made the revolver.

Here a pic from a 1851 navy 36 cal COM 1975 (AA):

Here a 1851 cal 44 with Orion Barrel :

Orion made match barrel, i know Orion worked with A.S.M (tingle ), Euroarms (1851 & 1860), and EIE PR (1974) 1851 Navy

if this can help someone to ...

Seb

Doc Hoy · March 6, 2010, 06:11 AM

It is more than we knew before.

Doc Hoy · March 6, 2010, 08:10 AM

This is an interesting topic because I believe the answer could be right in front of us.

To a person who lives in Italy and has even a passing familiarity with the replica arms industry the meaning of this marking could be completely obvious. It would be like "UL" in the United States which is totally obscure to folks outside of the U.S.

I wonder what is the earliest example of the COM marking on a pistol and what is the latest. If those dates correspond with the existence of an importer such as "FIE" we might assume that the group that was contracted to assemble and import for FIE (as an example) did a little business on the side but could not mark the pistols because of legal reasons.

My thoughts are really just a wild guess.

Two questions emerge:

1. What is the span of years over which we have examples of replicas with the COM marking?

2. Does examination of the COM marked pistols reveal any similarities with other manufacturers?

arcticap · March 7, 2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

2. Does examination of the COM marked pistols reveal any similarities with other manufacturers?

A precise measurement of the cylinder length may indicate which major manufacturer's cylinder that it matches.
Then a closer examination of some of the other parts to 1851's from the same major manufacturer and time period might show the origin of the pistol's frame and other raw parts used to build the COM guns.
Similarly taking a look at some of the "independently produced" specialty trucks, kit cars, RV's and even taxi cabs produced here in the U.S. shows that many of their major components were made by the Big 3 American auto manufacturers.

sebou · March 11, 2010, 07:22 AM

Hi all
I found a philadelphia pistol with the COM marking.
Here a pic, if that help someone...

Doc Hoy · March 11, 2010, 10:43 AM

I have been in contact with a professor who travels to Italy once per year. He has connections in Milan which is not far from Brescia.

He has agreed to do a bit of research through correspondence with the goal of determining what C.O.M. means.

I will report his findings here.

Tnx,

Noz · March 11, 2010, 04:42 PM

I thought Pietta was the only company to make the .44 1851s?

Delmar · March 11, 2010, 06:17 PM

I don't think so. I have an old shot to heck Uberti in .44 that I'm pretty sure is an 1851.

Fingers McGee · March 11, 2010, 08:05 PM

Uberti discontinued the brass frame models in .44 around 1994 IINM

FM

sebou · March 12, 2010, 02:39 AM

Delmar, your Uberti 1851 Round barrel looks fine replicas.
I'm just looking for the marks over the frame, it looks not usuals marks ? or am i wrong. I can't see as well as possible on your pic.

Seb

RobertoJ · March 13, 2010, 01:59 PM

Ok here's the revolver I am talking about, see if you can see the COM mark. Sorry, I am not a good photographer.

Doc Hoy · March 13, 2010, 03:08 PM

I have a Pietta, an FIE and a Euroarms. The Euroarms is a CCH frame. It is a byoot. Pietta is a CCH fraem with the black two piece grips. The FIE is a brass frame. But all are .44.

What is the deal with the round barreled revolver in .44 much like Leech and Rigdon or Griswold and Gunnison. Both of those were built in .36 but not .44. So does the .44 which resembles an 1851 pattern accept for the round barrel have a historical prototype?

sebou · March 15, 2010, 08:52 AM

Roberto J, the pics are goods. I can see the COM mark really nice.
At this time, i have not info more about this manufacturer, but i'm still seeking to.

The revolver of Delmar look like an original, such G&G or Manathan, not an Uberti replica prod, but Delmar talk about Uberti, and i guess he know what he says. I'm still trying to look for the mark on the frame, and i can't see Uberti or Italian marks on the pic.

Doc,
I can't believe Colt manufacturing made a protoype of 1851 on cal 44. There is no historic info about that. I think, this period, men were on basic reflexion : .36 to the Navy and .44 to the army. That all !
But nothing is impossible...

Seb

February 20, 2010, 02:45 PM	#1
RobertoJ Junior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 9	.44 cal 1977 Navy Colt, barrel marked COM Hi there.... I am a pack rat and as such, many years ago, I was given what appears to be a Navy Colt replica, in .44 cal. I stashed it away because I never had an interest in blackpowder. As far as I can tell, it doesn't look like it has been fired. Is either that or it was cleaned very well before giving it to me. However, the screw slots are all messed up as in "somebody played a lot with me". I took it apart and the trigger/bolt spring is broken and the cylinder has rotation marks. I have been able to ascertain that it has the "provisional" Gardone proof and the blackpowder proof for Gardone & Brescia and that it was made in 1977 (it has an "AC" mark). It has a 7.5 inch octagon blued barrel with a single post (what appears to be brass) front sight (the rear sight is a notch in the hammer), brass frame and what appears to be walnut grips. The brass frame appears to be somewhat roughly finished at the "joints". As you hold the revolver by the grips, the barrel on the right hand side reads "CAL .44 NAVY MODEL MADE IN ITALY" and in the barrel, underneath the loading lever is marked with the letters "COM". Does anybody know who manufactured this revolver? I am trying to determine that to know how to order parts. I do not know if I will get around to fire it but, I would like to restore it to a decent condition. Can the brass frame be polished to remove imperfections? What should I be watching for in determining if this is a "worthy" piece? Any and all information will be appreciated. Thank you.

February 20, 2010, 09:30 PM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Robertj Might also want to call either VTI Gun Parts 860-435-8068 or Dixie Gun Works 800-238-6785 for replacement parts. VTI folks are friendlier but Dixie has an excellent stock. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; February 20, 2010 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Added numbers

March 3, 2010, 04:37 PM	#9
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Sebou If you are able to put this question (What or who is C.O.M.?) to rest, a lot of folks on this forum will be very happy. Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 4, 2010, 01:28 PM	#12
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I am going out on a limb. Sebou, I lived in Italy for a while and I remember that it was not uncommon to have manufactured commercially available items marked with initials which represent a professional group. Some were quasi governmental, others were best described as guilds. It seemed to me at the time, (Early 80s) that the groups were formed for much the same reason as the "Grange" was formed in the US. It provided a bit of standardization, created an economy of scale to level prices and costs, and gave the group some power to influence either the government or the market. I remember ONC which meant "Opera Naccionale de Combattante" which was a military and police veteran's group which got involved in security issues. I also remember COM standing for "Commune" which was a marking used on Wine when sold in bulk. (We bought it in bulk because we drank it in bulk). Wine that was marked "COM" could not be marked with any other individual vintner's label. I wonder if COM on our pistols is akin to that kind of marking. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 6, 2010, 06:11 AM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Seb It is more than we knew before. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

February 20, 2010, 04:02 PM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Unfortunately the .44 cal combined with a brass frame on an 1851 Navy means it's not worth much; it may be rehabbed to be a fine shooter but it won't ever have any material value. It's not a replica of anything that Colt, or anyone else in the Civil War era, ever produced. There are tens of thousands of such guns, many of which have been damaged by overpowering the loads; they are all generally the least expensive (new price) of any cap and ball revolvers.

February 20, 2010, 04:59 PM	#3
RobertoJ Junior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 9	thank you!......this is what I call bad news and good news! obviously, the bad news is that it is not worth much but, I suspected as much so, no surprises there......now, let's see if this puppy can be rehabbed and passed on. Now, if anybody knows who made it and where I can get the parts for it.... Thanks again for your response.

February 20, 2010, 07:33 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	bprevolver might know. Drop him a pm.

February 21, 2010, 07:15 PM	#6
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	When it comes to some of the unknown Italian revolver makers, one of the only assumptions that anyone can take for granted is that it was probably produced by a licensed Italian gunsmith or gunsmithing outfit that was registered. The fact that it was sent to the Italian proofhouse means that there's some record somewhere in Italy which we don't have access to. Even if we did, the chances are that we might learn that the raw frame and parts were probably produced by one of the major manufacturers and then the rest of the revolver was assembled & finished by a smaller gunsmithing outfit who contracted to export it. For the most part, many of the parts are interchangable with some hand fitting being necessary in some cases depending on who the original manufacturer was I guess. Some parts may fit right in and others may need a lot of work. Read the following short thread to understand how difficult it is to determine what the trademark initials on some of the older revolvers actually represents. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...light=database

February 21, 2010, 08:39 PM	#7
RobertoJ Junior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 9	Thank you all, that thread was a treasure trove of data! I have decided to see if I can find the spring and screws and try to restore it to a like new condition and maybe fire it, or maybe save it for the next generation. Again, thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond.

March 3, 2010, 02:48 PM	#8
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	Hello, RobertoJ : I'm interesting about your searching. I guess i saw one time this marks (COM) over a Colt 1851 Navy, but long time ago. Could you put there some pics from your revolver, with marking, please. Maybe i could give you some help. Thanks, Seb

March 4, 2010, 09:26 AM	#10
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	lol, yes, sometimes markings over revolver are not the same. As you know, it depending models made, date, serial number, distributor, and the canon made or not by the manufacturer. All marks are important and it's needed to compare with the other manufacturer list i have. I don't missed all to give some new info about COM. Seb

March 4, 2010, 09:59 AM	#11
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Welcome to the forum Seb. COM is a mark that has not been tied to a maker as far as I know. The brass frame 51 Navy clones in both .44 and .36 are about the most common and least expensive revolver you can find. I think you idea of restoring is fine. The brass can be filed and/or sanded, then polished. Re-bluing of the steel is fairly easy and inexpensive. As far as the screw heads, that's a common problem from owners not using the correct hollow ground screwdrivers during disassemble. If they are not chewed up to bad you may be able to dress them with a small file and re-blue. As far as replacement parts I would order for a Pietta model and see if the can be made to fit. Most replacement parts do need some fitting. Things like screws are the same in most cases, springs are close. Problems are hammers with different diameter holes, cylinder length, arbor diameter. If all you need are screws and a few springs, maybe a new hand I think it well be a fun project. Take photos and keep us posted on your progress.

March 6, 2010, 04:15 AM	#13
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	hi friends, ok, nice idea to the COM kind of marking, why not... Doc, i know a little bit Italia, cause my parents are. I went this summer. lol Well, i have found something about COM. Not really nice for our question about who made the revolver. Here a pic from a 1851 navy 36 cal COM 1975 (AA): Here a 1851 cal 44 with Orion Barrel : Orion made match barrel, i know Orion worked with A.S.M (tingle ), Euroarms (1851 & 1860), and EIE PR (1974) 1851 Navy if this can help someone to ... Seb

March 6, 2010, 08:10 AM	#15
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Interesting Topic This is an interesting topic because I believe the answer could be right in front of us. To a person who lives in Italy and has even a passing familiarity with the replica arms industry the meaning of this marking could be completely obvious. It would be like "UL" in the United States which is totally obscure to folks outside of the U.S. I wonder what is the earliest example of the COM marking on a pistol and what is the latest. If those dates correspond with the existence of an importer such as "FIE" we might assume that the group that was contracted to assemble and import for FIE (as an example) did a little business on the side but could not mark the pistols because of legal reasons. My thoughts are really just a wild guess. Two questions emerge: 1. What is the span of years over which we have examples of replicas with the COM marking? 2. Does examination of the COM marked pistols reveal any similarities with other manufacturers? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 11, 2010, 07:22 AM	#17
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	Hi all I found a philadelphia pistol with the COM marking. Here a pic, if that help someone...

March 11, 2010, 10:43 AM	#18
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	sebou et al. I have been in contact with a professor who travels to Italy once per year. He has connections in Milan which is not far from Brescia. He has agreed to do a bit of research through correspondence with the goal of determining what C.O.M. means. I will report his findings here. Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 11, 2010, 04:42 PM	#19
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	I thought Pietta was the only company to make the .44 1851s?

March 11, 2010, 06:17 PM	#20
Delmar Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Norhthern Indiana Posts: 307	I don't think so. I have an old shot to heck Uberti in .44 that I'm pretty sure is an 1851.

March 11, 2010, 08:05 PM	#21
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Uberti discontinued the brass frame models in .44 around 1994 IINM FM __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

March 12, 2010, 02:39 AM	#22
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	Delmar, your Uberti 1851 Round barrel looks fine replicas. I'm just looking for the marks over the frame, it looks not usuals marks ? or am i wrong. I can't see as well as possible on your pic. Seb

March 13, 2010, 03:08 PM	#24
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Regarding the 1851 in .44 Caliber I have a Pietta, an FIE and a Euroarms. The Euroarms is a CCH frame. It is a byoot. Pietta is a CCH fraem with the black two piece grips. The FIE is a brass frame. But all are .44. What is the deal with the round barreled revolver in .44 much like Leech and Rigdon or Griswold and Gunnison. Both of those were built in .36 but not .44. So does the .44 which resembles an 1851 pattern accept for the round barrel have a historical prototype? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 15, 2010, 08:52 AM	#25
sebou Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Location: France Posts: 108	Roberto J, the pics are goods. I can see the COM mark really nice. At this time, i have not info more about this manufacturer, but i'm still seeking to. The revolver of Delmar look like an original, such G&G or Manathan, not an Uberti replica prod, but Delmar talk about Uberti, and i guess he know what he says. I'm still trying to look for the mark on the frame, and i can't see Uberti or Italian marks on the pic. Doc, I can't believe Colt manufacturing made a protoype of 1851 on cal 44. There is no historic info about that. I think, this period, men were on basic reflexion : .36 to the Navy and .44 to the army. That all ! But nothing is impossible... Seb