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Old August 25, 2009, 04:01 PM   #1
poline
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Disapointing FPS

Lee manual says Win 231 2.3 gr will produce 737fps for S&W 32 long. The most I get out of a 3inch barrel is 591fps a low of 473fps and avg of 537fps with a 98gr lrn bullet. I'm using Winchester small pistol primers. I'm using a 3/4 turn crimp. Does anyone have any thoughts as to why my fps are so very low?
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Old August 25, 2009, 05:11 PM   #2
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does lee post what weapon they test these loads in? if so, might look that up or call lee and ask
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Old August 25, 2009, 05:18 PM   #3
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Short barrels generally produce lower velocties in a given load. DO NOT go over the max load to try to match the published velocity. ALSO, the published velocities are rarely right on. But, as stated above, a call to Lee to find out what gun they used to get the data would be a good start.
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Old August 25, 2009, 06:03 PM   #4
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I am guessing that you are shooting the .32 Long in a revolver. If so, the size of the barrel-to-cylinder gap can have a big effect on velocity. You can measure your revolver's gap with a cheap set of shim-type thickness gauges. Depending on the cartridge, velocities of the same load can vary by a few hundred fps from revolver to revolver.

Also, Richard Lee gets his load data from the powder manufacturers. Winchester often published velocity data from test barrels, which have NO cylinder gap and therefore give unrealisticly high velocities.

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Old August 25, 2009, 06:43 PM   #5
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TO SL1

Thank you, very much.
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Old August 25, 2009, 08:27 PM   #6
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One other question...

Are you weighing your powder charges or using the Lee cavities/dippers alone? The Lee charts that cross-reference powder weights to the various sizes of cavities and dippers are notoriously optimistic. Rarely will you get the listed weight when using them. Usually you'll get less weight, and sometimes a lot less... The only way to know for sure is to weigh them on a reloading scale.
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Old August 25, 2009, 08:32 PM   #7
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I personally, use and recommend a digital scale... they're cheap (around $20-$25) and worth their weight in GOLD!
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Old August 25, 2009, 11:04 PM   #8
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To RidgwayCO

I understand and have experienced the Lee cross reference and dipper thing. Which is why every load I have tested has been pain stakingly weight out on a Lee safey scale, which I cross chsecked with a dital scale, which i checked with weights.
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Old August 26, 2009, 07:52 AM   #9
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poline, that sounds like an excellent process. The only reason I brought up the low charge weights was because a lot of new reloaders treat the Lee charts as gospel, and then get velocities way below what they were expecting.

I really enjoy using my chronograph, but the sad thing about them is the way they can shattered your expectations about how much velocity your "monster" loads are actually generating...
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Old August 26, 2009, 08:31 AM   #10
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QuickLOAD predicts 732 fps from a 6" closed barrel with no barrel/cylinder gap, so I expect that is what they used. For a pistol round's velocity to grow 100 fps/inch of barrel in the 2 to 3 inch range is typical, and to grow maybe half that much per inch in the 5" range is also pretty normal. It varies because of the difference in how close the bullet is to the end of the barrel when the pressure curve and its resulting acceleration are at their peak values.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

You are not at a maximum charge for a bullet that is seated out to the full 1.28" maximum COL of the .32 S&W Long cartridge. Unfortunately, a lot of books give a maximum based on their wadcutters, which are seated flush with the case mouth. That deeper seating raises pressure considerably. But if you have the bullet out at full length you can use a bit more powder. You'll note that Hodgdon's online data for HP38 (same powder as 231) at 2.3 grains gives 861 fps with a hollow base wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth (5 3/8" barrel). That's the higher pressure's effect. Try 2.5 grains, or even work up toward 2.7 grains while watching for pressure signs.

Note that when I say HP38 is the same powder, that is literally true. It is not merely equivalent. Hodgdon distributes Winchester as well as their own brand name, and their tech told me there are currently three Winchester powders that are also packaged for the Hodgdon line under Hodgdon designations. These are:

HP38=231
H110=296
H414=760
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Old August 26, 2009, 12:14 PM   #11
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To RidgwayCO

Thank u, I undestand! Still the sad,sad, thing about this is I'm not even getting the starter load fps. George Arms sells a S&W 32 Long factory load 85gr jacketed hollow point that they say will go 850fps. Out of my 2 1/2 inch barrel and with my chronongraph it goes 830fps. Thus my disappointment with the 573fps vs the 737fps starter load with 2.3gr win 231 98gr bullet.
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Old August 26, 2009, 12:16 PM   #12
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Thank you, very much.
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Old August 26, 2009, 12:21 PM   #13
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I don't think there ARE any pressure signs

that you can watch for when you are loading a cartridge with a SAAMI pressure limit of only 15,000 psi. A proof load is only about 19,500 psi, and that shouldn't be giving you any of the pressure signs in Unclenick's list, either.

So, if loading for an old gun that was chambered for the .32 S&W Long, then the ONLY way to be watchful is to watch what you load. On the other hand, if you are loading .32 S&W Long cartridges to be used in a revolver that is chambered for the .32 H&R Magnum or the .237 Federal, then there is enough safety margin if you happen to get a little above the .32 S&W Long pressures.

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Old August 26, 2009, 12:22 PM   #14
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To IllinoisCoyoteHunter

Thank you, very much.
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Old August 26, 2009, 12:40 PM   #15
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TO SL1

Where does one find this SAAAMI Listing for shell pressure limits? This is interresting. Still if the pressure limit is 15000psi and the test load is 19500psi doesn't this mean that the test load is dangerous? What do I know? That's the problem I know very little, but I'am going to kept trying.
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Old August 26, 2009, 01:03 PM   #16
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Poline,

Most reloading manuals will tell you the SAAMI pressure limit for the cartridges that they have data for. And, QuickLOAD has that data for cartridges in its database (for the cartridges that are under SAAMI jurisdiction).

The "proof loads" are approximately 30% (by pressure) overloads that the manufacturer fires ONCE in each gun as a test that there is not some manufacturing flaw that makes it unsafe. The idea is that just firing a cartridge that is right at the SAAMI limit might not fail a gun THE FIRST TIME if there was some flaw, even though it might fail later. So, the 30% overload demostrates a margin of safety for loads that are at the SAAMI pressure.

However, REPEATED firings of such overloads will eventually damage the gun to the point that it is unsafe to continue firing it. But, you typically won't realize that until it comes apart. Repeated firing of loads right at the SAAMI limit will also wear-out guns, but in different ways that are (almost always) not dangerous, such as eroding the barrel so that it becomes inaccurate.

So, yes, it is unsafe to handload "proof loads" for home use. And, I doubt that the proof loads are shot at the factory by somebody just loading it up and holding it in his hand while he points it down-range and pulls the trigger. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that some safer method is used to fire those loads.

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Old August 26, 2009, 05:35 PM   #17
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TO SL1

That's a lot of info, thank you for that explaination.
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Old August 28, 2009, 01:09 PM   #18
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The aggravating thing to me about reloading manuals is to find that a powder won't give nearly the velocity reported with a specific charge. When a "powder" companies data DOES give the velocity shown in their reloading tables and accuracy is good, then they have a customer for a long time. I've found that Winchester 231 is one of those powders that never came close to giving me the velocity reported in any of my handguns and Winchester 748 rifle powder is another. May just be me, my guns, or my components but some powders do what they are advertised to and some won't come close. I know some data is tested in different guns than mine or different length barrels. There are a lot of shooters out there who think they are getting 800 plus fps in the 45's who are actually getting 600 fps or 9mm shooter who think they are getting 1100 fps and are actually shooting only 900 etc. A chronograph tells the truth. I do use Win 748 in some rifle loads but Win 231 won't be on my shelf again.
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Old August 28, 2009, 01:30 PM   #19
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Having loaded home cast lead bullets in a .32 S&W Long, I do not know why you are concerned about velocity. It makes a wonderful target and plinking round. I worked up loads looking for loads that produced the best accuracy. I was never concerned with velocity. Accurate loads, no matter what the velocity, work well on anything that you should hunt with it (rabbits, squirrels, etc.) Anything application for a purpose that you think requires more velocity (personal defense, etc.) would be better undertaken with a hotter chambering like .357, 9mm, etc.
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Old August 29, 2009, 02:59 AM   #20
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I have a Ruger single six Bisley with adj sights.Gift from a friend. It is a 32H+ROne of the more delightful loads to use in it is the Fiochi 32 S=W long wadcutter.Try a box,and chrono them.It will give you some ideas.
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:02 PM   #21
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To dahermit

I just love these little revolers and I'm sure that no matter where this velocity thing goes too. I will also think of the S&W 32 long as wonderful target and plinking round. This is the rational for my concern with velocity. My goal with this round is to duplicate the orginial factory round with smokeless powder and according to Hodgdon that would be 750fps with a 98gr lead bullet. (orginial load being 13.0 gr black power) out of a six inch barrel. Thinking out loud, I guess I can't expect 750fps out a 2.5 barrel, I should problemly drop my expectations to 650fps.
My second goal is to get the very most I can out the round for self-defense. I will not shot the Georgia Arms load 85gr Jacketed hp 850fps S&W32long very often, but I want it for a self-defense load and I want to to duplicate it.
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:50 PM   #22
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2.6 grains of 231 (overmax) with 90 grain lead bullets in 32 S&W brass give about 800fps in my Ruger SP101.
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Old September 1, 2009, 01:21 PM   #23
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the diameter of your barrel and your reloading bullets may not agree with each other. too small [say .311] and blow by gases reduce velocity. too large [say .314] and excess friction will slow down the bullet also. FWIW.
you may slug the barrel with fishing weight lead or BP balls.

plus everythin said above; i think your answer is somewhere here; possibly a combination of.
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Old September 3, 2009, 04:19 AM   #24
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Thank u
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Old September 3, 2009, 04:21 AM   #25
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Thank u
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