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January 24, 2009, 10:39 AM | #151 |
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I disagree, Ken.
There are laws, currently on the books in many States. We haven't even touched upon the current federal regs. But the fact is, the laws are there. It's the enforcement of current laws that are the problem. If current laws are not enforced, why does it make sense to legislate a new, tougher, better law? Fact of the matter is that new laws will generally only affect the law abiding citizen in ever increasing restrictions. We both know that the NRA has been calling for more effective enforcement of existing law, rather than new law. They've been doing this for years. Bottom line. Effective enforcement of current law will achieve all the goals that people scream they want the new law to do. Without further restricting the rights of law abiding citizens. |
January 24, 2009, 11:16 AM | #152 | |
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If the whole issue of dealing without a license is a grey area, shouldnt that be addressed? Can it be addressed in a way that doesnt preclude Cruffle Gunny from occasionally selling his collection? WildfolksloveloopholesAlaska TM |
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January 24, 2009, 11:43 AM | #153 |
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Ah, but that's not saying the "old" law doesn't work. Redefining the meaning of "dealer" does not require a new law. It requires a redefinition.
To be sure, such a technicality is a new law. But not in the manner suggested - prohibiting all FTF transfers without a NICS check (the topic of this thread). Here's my reasoning. Constitutionally, registration can be required, if the Government (State and/or Federal) utilizes the data for Militia purposes. I'm actually fine with that, if the requirement is tied to implementation of the militia clauses. Barring this, the Government has no justifiable reason to know what firearms I, or you, may be keeping for our own lawful uses. NICS checks are constitutional, even under strict scrutiny, but only because of the currently recognized model of commerce clause case law. Should Wickard ever be revisited and overturned (or narrowed), then the NICS check does not carry weight. NOR would FFL schemes. They all become (as they should have been to begin with) a State issue. Since I'm an advocate of Federalism, tell me again, why I should support another expansion of commerce clause legislation? |
January 24, 2009, 11:50 AM | #154 |
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I am not in favor of closing the so-called "gun show loop hole", I'm in favor of cutting all the strings used to knot the loops in the first place!
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January 24, 2009, 02:07 PM | #155 | |
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Sounds more the the enforcement isn't working.....i.e. non existent. By your own admission when the BATF enforced it by issuing a desist letter it worked. |
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January 24, 2009, 02:50 PM | #156 | ||
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WildwearesosocraticAlaska ™ |
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January 24, 2009, 02:56 PM | #157 | |
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Maybe I am confused but I have seen the thread go one way concerning who is and who is not a dealer of firearms. That is one point but the other point is that FTF sales do not require a backgound check and therefore leave open an avenue to nuts and crooks to buy firearms they are not legally allowed to own or possess. IIRC as long as the seller does not know beforehand that the person he sold to is a part of the prohibited class, the seller has done nothing illegal. So, the background check could be construed as protecting said private seller from selling to a nut or crook? Or, are you saying that all these folks I see walking around in gun shows with rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols in their belts who will sell to anybody with cash, no questions asked, should be considered dealers by the BATFE and then arrested for selling firearms without a FFL? Would that fly legally in a prosecution?
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January 24, 2009, 03:11 PM | #158 | |||
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The same example is used for registration. The criminal has not been stopped. Why add to the complexity (and number of) hoops the lawful citizen endures, when the net result is zero, as regards curtailing criminal behavior. The largest peer reviewed study of its kind (which even admitted its anti-gun bias), by the CDC (released Oct. 2003), concluded that firearms laws were problematic in that there was no perceivable effects on criminal behavior: Quote:
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January 24, 2009, 03:28 PM | #159 | ||
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I think there is some larger responsibility here that many of us think is necessary with firearms and so the background check (albeit with accurate data and easy of use technologically) is a way to realize some of that responsibility. I might some day want to sell some of my firearms, and I for one would not want to sell a gun even unknowingly to a nut or a crook but without the background check how would I know? This responsibility is something that might have been taken for granted years ago but no longer. However, keeping with the OP I am assuming that the backgound check is something necessary to public safety and is not in question on this thread. PS Al, how do you get your quotes to say "originally posted by XXX" do you just type that in or is there an auto feature to do that?
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January 24, 2009, 03:41 PM | #160 | |
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We all know that illegal gun trafficing exists.....where do they get them? 1. Corrupt dealers 2. Straw men 3. Theft 4. Private party sales Without running amok here, I ask: what is the least "infringing" way to prevent all of the above. With respect to thieving, its always going to be reactive. What is a proactive method? NICs takes care of honest dealers excpet in the case of #2.... WildifeellikealawschoolperfesserAlaska ™ |
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January 24, 2009, 04:59 PM | #161 | ||
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You've left a couple of necessary players off the list of contributors to illegal gun trafficking. You should also include, 5. Honest dealers 6. Distributors 7. Manufacturers Illicit gun trafficking exists because guns exist.
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January 24, 2009, 05:32 PM | #162 | ||
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Zap - Sorry Ken - GEM WildnicedebateAlaska ™ Last edited by Wildalaska; January 24, 2009 at 07:25 PM. Reason: I'm deleting the part I nailed before to avoid bickering on a tangential issue |
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January 24, 2009, 06:28 PM | #163 | ||||
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January 24, 2009, 06:40 PM | #164 | |
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Best quote of the whole thread:
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NICS is a chokepoint on the sales of all firearms. One person asked how long gun shows could continue if NICS was down during significant periods on weekends. This is a credible point and the issue goes beyond mere tin-foil paranoia. Many things can happen to prevent a NICS check. Weather, equipment failure, accident, fire, power failure, terrorist attack, even a major solar storm. Bad weather in or near the facility used for NICS could deny checks across the country. Localized or regional outages can occur through the other means listed above. Anyone remember a large internet outage in the late 90's due to a backhoe operator digging up a backbone cable in Texas? I sure do. The power to delay the exercise of a right is the power to deny the right. Delaying someone's right by days is not trivial. Especially when the desire is to exercise the right as quickly as possible (i.e. today). I would argue that delaying the right by more than about 90 minutes, fails. Lastly, the government cannot "approve" the exercise of a right. They can only deny it for cause - such as a felon attempting to vote or denial of an assembly because it is not peaceable. That those with ambigious names (John Smith, Sally Brown, etc.) may have their rights denied based on government inability to keep accurate records does not excuse the violation of their rights. If the government cannot deny a NICS check, there is no reason to delay it beyond a "reasonable time". I define that as 90 minutes, as requiring a 2nd trip to the FFL is an unnecessary burden. Let the gov't correct any errors after the fact, not the seller. The kiosk idea has some merit. A pre-approved NICS check with a clearance-number the FFL or seller writes down on the receipt, 4473 or other place for their records. Such a number exempts the FFL/seller from liability and gives the buyer a record too. But if the NICS system is down or unreachable for more than [30 | 60] minutes it is up to the government to correct any error that occurs. I'm not sure if there is a law prohibiting Congress from defunding the NICS system. But that is exactly what congress did for the program by which felons can get their federal rights restored. If that happened, the the entire [inefficient] cost of running the system would then have to be apportioned to the users of NICS - the FFLs. That could make the cost of a NICS check skyrocket to the unaffordable. An addendum should be added to the law that says if congress doesn't fund the program it ceases to exist along with all requirements to perform such a check. Crime, deterrence and punishment Deterrence is telling little Bobby that if he filches a cookie before dinner, he'll get a spanking or be forced to stay in his room. With adults, it is the cost of fines and/or losing their liberties for some period of time. But given crime stats, obviously there are those who think that "a couple o' years ain't nutthin'" in order for them to do what they want. In short, it would appear that the punishment is bearable for a majority of criminals. Change that. Rather than burden the citizens attempting to exercise their rights, increase the penalties for those prohibited persons who violate the law. Make the first offense punishable by 8 years in jail and then double the sentence for each subsequent prosecution. Want to make it more likely that private sales will prevent purchase by prohibited persons? Exempt the seller from liability if he obtains an "authorization" number from NICS using either a telephone number or a website that prompts him for the required information. Without the number, if the purchaser commits a crime or is a prohibited person, the seller may incur some liability (either criminal or civil). (Note: this should not include "registration" information) For buyers, it would be worth the effort to create a website that allows buyers to determine if a gun for sale is listed as stolen or "lost", too. Increase the penalty for being a felon in possession of a firearm. It's a 2nd strike so the penalty should be severe - 8-12 years in prison. Increase the penalties for a prohibited person using (firing) a firearm in a crime. Double the length of a sentence if they actually fire the gun. Increase the penalty for the theft of firearms. A residential burglar who steals a firearm should receive a longer sentence than one who doesn't steal a firearm. Add more time if they transfer possession to another prohibited person. If we turn "gun control" on it's head by increasing the penalties for felons in possession, use of a firearm in a crime and theft of a firearm, then the only people impacted are the criminals. Turn it on it's head completely by eliminating the FFL requirement and most of the paperwork. Keep a NICS type system to make it easier for everyone. Limit and prohibit the criminals from having them and prosecute them vigorously. Final note: we cannot achieve utopia with either method simply because any otherwise decent person can choose to commit their first crime. Laws can only punish for things people have already done, not what they might do. Those who choose to violate the law risk a long time in jail, including the rest of their lives in some cases.
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January 24, 2009, 07:00 PM | #165 |
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BTW, you can't make anyone in a prohibited class register their weapons or charge them with possessing an unregistered weapon because it would violate their 5th amendment right against self incrimination. Making them register would be forcing them to admit they are breaking the law. US v. Haynes.
So any registration law would only apply to those allowed to possess firearms. The prohibited classes would still have to be prsoecuted under a law that prohibits their possession. So a law would be passed that would have no effect on the criminal class but would substantially burden the law abiding. And the laws used today to prosecute criminals who possess firearms would still have to be used if some registration scheme were brought to be. And let's not kid ourselves, NICS for all purchases will lead to retention of the data which will lead to registration. |
January 24, 2009, 07:34 PM | #166 | |
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January 24, 2009, 07:40 PM | #167 | |
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laws are only going to stop the honest and nearly honest, or fence sitters.
there is already a law on the books saying felons cant have guns....and yet thats what is being discussed in a roundabout way. so basically this is another law we need, to reinforce whats already against the law, that isnt working already? no...its a law aimed at legit reasonable citizens, who really dont need it....because the rest of these points are already illegal, and if i understand correctly..they arent working, right? aw crap, just make guns illegal and all the problems will go away.
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January 24, 2009, 07:41 PM | #168 | ||||||
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Bill,
I have to respond to some of this: Quote:
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January 24, 2009, 07:51 PM | #169 | ||
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Deterence and prevention are distinguishable.
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January 24, 2009, 07:56 PM | #170 | |
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January 24, 2009, 09:39 PM | #171 | ||
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They are different words with different meanings. Those differences are not dependent on your view of human behaviour.
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January 24, 2009, 09:43 PM | #172 |
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There is no gun show loophole, any more than there EVER WERE any cop killer bullets.
But most of you are probably aware of how that played out. There are private sales between civilians at gun shows, which is perfectly legal. But there is a gun being transferred without the gov having the details, or collecting any taxes. And I could possibly see certain idiotic and greedy ffl holders supporting this as they would then be able to charge a lot of people a lot of transfer fee's. The gov does not want you to have guns in the first place. Any guns. If you do not already know and understand that much, there is no use presenting any case here at all.
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January 24, 2009, 09:55 PM | #173 | ||
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January 24, 2009, 10:10 PM | #174 |
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The more swift and certain the punishment the more effective the law will be.
The problem in our system is that punishment is neither swift nor certain which reduces the effectiveness of laws. I'm not arguing for summary punishments but that in order to have freedom certain sacrifices have to be made. The many freedoms we enjoy often reduce the effectiveness of laws. In the quest to achieve complete safety and security many are willing to give up many freedoms. Ben Franklin said such people deserve neither, I say in the end they will have neither. Throughout history freedom is rarely taken away in great amounts. It is taken away in small amounts over time. Gun rights inAmerica are no exception. |
January 24, 2009, 10:15 PM | #175 | |
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