November 29, 2009, 01:34 PM | #1 | |
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When eating out
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When you are dining out, what is your method of maintaining situational awareness. Here 4 officers, trained, were taken out by one BG. Why would you, or I, be different ?
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November 29, 2009, 01:43 PM | #2 |
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Situational awareness is what it's all about. These guys had to be stark raving Condition White. When we go out to eat, if I can't get a seat with my back to a wall and/or with the entire restaurant in full view, we go somewhere else. Period.
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November 29, 2009, 02:32 PM | #3 | |
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A very rare instance indeed.
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November 29, 2009, 02:40 PM | #4 |
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so you guys are saying you could go from typing to shooting
before someone who already has there gun out and shooting. lets not assume the officers had any control of situation |
November 29, 2009, 03:47 PM | #5 |
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Seems from the posted info they were condition white, not paying attention in uniform ( marked targets). As civilians who knows who is armed, and yes back to the wall whenever possible with a view of the door making it even better. If the above mentioned is not available I stay and eat. Like it was stated what are the chances
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November 29, 2009, 04:56 PM | #6 |
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I learned as a rookie to ALWAYS WITH NO EXCEPTIONS sit where I can see the entrance. If possible with my back to a wall... but thats not always possible. I will however peruse everyone who enters the resturant. At the same time I'll be judging each person in the resturant, and everyone coming as a possible threat. An old timer told me to do this every time i went out to eat. Make it a habit. Now I cant turn it off. I'm retired several years now, and still do it out of habit.
I know nothing about what happened in Washington today, so I wont comment. I'm not going to assume the officers were in condition white... I can think of several scenarios where the officers would not have felt threatened. I'm not one to blame the victims. This is a sad, and tragic day for law enforcement. I'll be putting a black mourning band on my retirement shield. I've lost more than a few friends in the line of duty... I pray for their families, and their department. I know what they are going through. |
November 29, 2009, 06:48 PM | #7 |
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They were in a group - Redistribution and reduction
They were openly carrying and had marked police cars parked outside - show of force They were trained and had they backing of the law for their actions. I can see why they felt safer. I would have also. I would have let my guard down and most likely would have been stretched out right beside them if it had been me. How often do people go into a coffee shop and shoot four armed cops in uniform having lunch and tapping on their laptops? Well, till today never. Just goes to show you that you never know what kind of day you are going to have. This is terrible and undeserved.
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November 29, 2009, 08:10 PM | #8 |
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At today's IDPA match we had a drill where we fired two rounds into three targets from the draw. It is done is a couple of seconds. If you don't detect the BG as a threat, you are downed. If an ambush sets up with a person who looks innocuous, you are screwed. All the situational awareness couldn't prevent a well disguised person from doing this.
Sure, a noticeable tatooed, bald, guy, raving curses might alert you, but a normal looking person in a coffee shop - it is posturing to think that you can beat this.
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November 29, 2009, 08:15 PM | #9 |
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We have only one place that I will dine in... and its a corner booth... I never dine/sit with anyone behind my view... Wonder if that makes me paranoid??!!
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November 29, 2009, 08:20 PM | #10 |
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lets all respect the slain officers please.
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November 29, 2009, 08:32 PM | #11 | |
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Let's stop and think for a minute. How many times in the course of a day does a police officer or citizen come in contact with normal acting people who could, in an instant, murder us if we'd been the subject of a planned assassination? Latest reports (CNN) suggest one officer may have wounded the shooter. Too early to be trusting any such reports. May have been a security camera. He may have been driven from the scene. I'll bet officials on both sides of the Canadian border have been alerted. We'll see. Lacking the facts, I'll stop there. Those four officers represented 15% of the police force. Saw it first on Fox news, but most other cable news channels seem to be more interested in Tiger Wood's car accident than they have this terrible incident that has devistated a relatively small town--- where folks tend to know each other personally. Last edited by Nnobby45; November 29, 2009 at 08:41 PM. |
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November 29, 2009, 10:27 PM | #12 |
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One of the questions we were taught to ask to evaluate our daily tactics, was "How many people could have had me if they had wanted to kill me?" Just about everyone you come into contact with. As some have posed before,"Be polite, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
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November 29, 2009, 11:16 PM | #13 |
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I heard about the officers earlier today as well, very sad. My condolences to their families of those involved in this terrible event.
My method? I sit in a corner or against the wall where I can see the people coming in and the other diners. Then I watch. Everybody. It's a PITA really, old habits die hard though. I don't know that I would call my self paranoid, it's more of a comfort level thing, I'm not comfortable unless I can see everyone around me and everyone coming in. This isn't always possible, and in those cases I just take the best position I can find, or I go somewhere else, I don't like dining in crowds anyway. I was surprised to learn the shooter had gotten away. Apparently none of the officers even managed to return fire? Tragic. I can understand why though, to a degree at least. Small town, as the other poster pointed out a group of uniformed officers & cars = show of force, you can see why they felt safe. You see this a lot. I was in a pizza place just last week when about a half dozen officers came in. Knowing the town it was probably half or more of their officers. They all sat down at a long table in the middle of the dining area and paid no attention to me as I passed by going to the buffet from time to time. Likewise there are two officers that regularly work on their laptops at a coffee shop I frequent. Both appear to be well seasoned officers but are usually engrossed in their computer screens and rarely take what I would consider defensive seating positions. Actually the closest they ever get to defensive positions is taking a booth. I've seen them both sitting in a glassed in area by the street & entrance where they could both be shot from the street and the sidewalk. The area is hardly a high crime area, although there was a robbery and shooting just about a hundred feet from there in that very plaza just a couple years ago. To each their own I suppose. The shooting was actually a CC firing on a robber and apparently hitting everything but the robber. |
November 29, 2009, 11:41 PM | #14 | |
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Sitting where you can see the entrance, as a rule, is a good thing. But if you're with other like-minded folks, someone may have to sit down "the wrong way". That's when I pay attention to their eyes and faces. If they're looking past me for more than 2 seconds (or their eyes get wide) it's condition orange time. Booth or table? Booths can be more comfortable and sometimes feel more secure. But unless they're somewhat out of the way, I think they can be death traps. It's harder to get up and out of a booth than a table. Some of the newer restaurants have fixed supports in the floor for a sliding table. Conventional tables can be up-ended for a barrier (concealment at least) and you can move in several directions from the chairs. Unless you're in uniform, it's not likely you'll be ambushed like these 4 officers. But keeping aware of your surroundings is always a good thing to practice.
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November 29, 2009, 11:42 PM | #15 | |
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pax |
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November 29, 2009, 11:45 PM | #16 |
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It has not been a common scenario that I think most think about..... as LEO's. However, it's becoming more frequent. An officer here was killed when he was 'set -up' because he had arrested of the BG's friends.
With that in mind, if you are armed, give an LEO the courtesy and respect that he wants to protect himself until he's sure you aren't one of them. Sympathies to the family, friends and co-workers of the Officers. I hope they catch the 2 BG's who did this very quickly. This seems obviously a planned thing. |
November 30, 2009, 02:24 AM | #17 | |
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With that caveat, however, you ask a good question. My situational awareness is poor; I tend to be a head-in-the-clouds type that walks into walls because I'm usually thinking about something a million miles away. I don't seem to do that as often in public these days, however; perhaps my relatively new (few months old) CCW has made me aware that I *need* to be aware of what the people around me are doing. For some reason, this story has *really* hit home, maybe because my husband has a brother he loves very much who is a cop and who likes to meet with his buddies at a coffee shop to go over schedules too. :/ |
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November 30, 2009, 09:01 AM | #18 |
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overnight standoff? at a home in Seattle. Suspect is either wounded or possibly dead. house currently surrounded.
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November 30, 2009, 09:03 AM | #19 |
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Coffee shop owner was a former cop, himself.
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November 30, 2009, 10:56 AM | #20 | |
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November 30, 2009, 11:14 AM | #21 |
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Apparently it was some guy, out on parole, for who knows what all. They say it was not a crime with someone killed before that landed him in jail before hand. SWAT had his place surrounded earlier, I haven't heard the latest. I guess that all four were sitting in a booth on their laptops. He walked in pulled his gun and started shooting, one, got off a few shots at him, the rest didn't have much of a chance.
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November 30, 2009, 02:09 PM | #22 |
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They've apparently got into and searched the house, and he isn't in it. So the search for the bad guy continues.
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November 30, 2009, 02:59 PM | #23 |
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I am not now nor ever have been a police officer. God Bless you all for the job you do!
I have friends who are serving officers who do not dine with us unless they can see the door. Now I know it is not paranoia. I really do not understand why some people do these things. . . nor do I understand why someone with a rap sheet as long as this guy is still breathing. There is something very wrong with a legal system that seems to provide so many safeguards for the criminals and provides so much less for the law abiding. God Bless them, their families and ALL who serve to make lives safer for the rest of us!! |
November 30, 2009, 03:24 PM | #24 | |
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Also, I really don't like the idea of working on a computer in a public place unless my back is to the wall and I have plenty of space around me (such as at the airport). Hard to be observant when you're on the computer. |
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November 30, 2009, 03:43 PM | #25 |
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On Saturday night this piece of s##t told his buddies to watch the news on Sunday because he was going to kill some policemen. They didn't believe him...
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