Shipping firearm to FFL. A hypothetical conundrum.

[Nickel Plated]

SO I got a bit of an issue currently. I bought a handgun on GunBroker. The seller is an FFL in PA. I am a resident of PA. But they are really far away so I decided it would be easier to just have it shipped to a PA FFL closer to me and pay the transfer fee rather than spend an entire day and burning all the gas driving back and forth to get it in person.
The handgun was shipped via USPS. When USPS attempted delivery, it was early in the morning before the receiving FFL was open. So the package went back to the post office. Unlike UPS and FedEx. USPS doesn't do multiple delivery attempts. If you miss it you gotta go to the PO to get it in person. Since the package is addressed to the receiving FFL and not me (I assume. Maybe my name is on it somewhere. Certainly not address), I can't just go get it myself. So I have to call the receiving FFL and see if they will go pick it up. I will try that tomorrow.

If the FFL decides he can't be bothered to go pick it up, I read that they can call the PO and designate me as an "authorized agent" to pick up the package for them, bring it back to the shop and complete the transfer.

Here's the hypothetical. I DO NOT PLAN TO ACTUALLY DO THIS! Just so some of you guys don't get sidetracked on that point.

What if I went to pick up the package, but instead of bringing it back to my FFL to complete the transfer, just said "Welp, I got my gun in hand, the seller has been paid, far as I'm concerned my part in this transaction is over. I'm goin' home with my new gun."

Theoretically would there be any laws broken on the part of any of the parties involved?

Selling FFL: Their only responsibility is to send the gun to a licensed FFL who will complete the transfer. It's not on them to make sure the gun actually makes it there or the receiving FFL actually completes the whole NICS/4473 process for the transfer. So they are legally off the hook and since they already got paid, they have no real dog in the fight. Once the gun is out of their possesion, they really have no reason to care what happens to it at this point.

Receiving FFL: Their responsibility is to log the gun in their bound book when they receive it and complete the NICS/4473 before transferring it to me. Since they never technically received it, it was never in their "possession", and so they are clear of any responsibility for that gun. And since they never had to do a transfer, they are not owed any transfer fees. So again they have no real reason to care about this.

Me: As a private citizen and not an FFL, I am not responsible for ensuring that the NICS/4473 process is followed before I take possession of the firearm. Same as if I bought a gun at a gun show from some dude wandering the show floor. If he happens to be a licensed FFL unbeknownst to me, but decides to just take my cash and hand me the gun, that's his problem not mine. I'm not obligated to ensure he fulfills his responsibilities. So with the gun paid for I'm pretty much clear here.

Perhaps the receiving FFL could put in a claim that their package was stolen. But I think that would be a stretch. For one I became the legal owner of the gun as soon as I paid for it on GunBroker. Even if it wasn't in my "possession" yet. And since they never even got it in their shop, they can't really claim something as stolen if it was never theirs to begin with.
Secondly, I was "authorized" to pick it up. It's not like I broke into the post office in the middle of the night and snuck off with it, so I don't think a "theft" could really be claimed here.
And why would they even bother? They have no legal responsibility for that gun and they are not owed any money. What would be their motivation to go through all that?

Again, I will call the receiving FFL tomorrow when they open and see what they want to do about this. I DO NOT PLAN ON DOING THE ABOVE SCENARIO. I know this would likely be a gray area and do not wish to be a test case.
Just curious what you guys would think of this situation. I always like to go off on theoretical thought exercises.

[JoeSixpack]

Wow this is above my paygrade, but I will say you now have me paranoid as I have a shipment headed to my FFL via USPS.

I think there might be a problem with having a handgun inside the post office and not being a FFL, If I understand it correctly you can ship a long gun thru the postal service but not a handgun, Im not sure the wording of all that but picking up a handgun from the post office might be a issue.

Then again I see no weapon signs at the post office so I would think that would apply to long guns as well.

Hopefully someone can answer your question sure seems like a pickle to me.

[Concerned Citizen]

This is a very interesting post and has got my mind spinning. My take on the following possibilities are just that, as I have no clue about any ramifications of the laws here, but:

1. It sounds like shipping handguns via USPS is not a good idea. This is something that hadn't occurred to me before. If I were the seller I would want to make damn sure my gun was going to be legally transferred in the new owners name and I would use a shipping service that can insure this happens.

2. Assuming you did this, managed to get a handgun without FFL transfer and you later used the gun in an otherwise legitimate case of self defense or it was stolen and later used in the a commission of a crime, they may be able to trace it back to it's original owner depending on the circumstances, which would most likely be the guy you bought it from on Gunbroker. He may not "have a dog in the fight" as you say now assuming nothing bad happens but he sure as heck will if he gets a knock on the door by LE and he will have all your payment information. They might find out that you skipped out on the FFL transfer process. I'm not sure what, if any penalty there is for that but I wouldn't want to find out.

3. Assuming that something bad does go down, like a crime was committed with your stolen gun and the gun found and traced to it's original owner, it would eventually lead back to you. If I'm not mistaken, it is a Federal offense to carry a firearm in a Post Office in any state, concealed or not. I wonder if they could find a loop hole and somehow convict you of this in the event that a crime was committed with your unregistered gun considering that you, being a non-FFL holder were indeed in possession of a firearm while inside the PO, however briefly, when you signed for it and walked out with it under your arm?

To be honest, I really don't know. I'm just putting stuff out there. If it were a curio or relic firearm, or a recreational gun that you would have no intention of ever carrying or using for self defense or that would unlikely to be used in a crime if stolen you may not have anything to worry about.

Nonetheless, it's a very good idea not to tempt fate and follow all state and federal laws concerning firearms.

[roashooter]

This post reaffirms my disliking ordering firearms. The complications this brings to light, just does not seem to be worth the frustrations. I hope all turns out well.....but I think I will continue to buy my firearms....first hand...in person...from my trusted dealers...

[TomNJVA]

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that a case could be made that if your FFL authorized you to pick-up a package addressed to him that you are obligated to deliver it to him. If you don't, it could be argued that you stole the gun. It could also be argued that he did receive the gun and the two of you conspired to bypass the system. Whether any of these arguments have any legal validity I'll leave to resident lawyers, but it sure sounds sticky to me.

[JoeSixpack]

Tom you got me thinking.
When someone send something to your FFL do they address it to the FFL holder personally? or just ship to the address with your name on it?

[Frank Ettin]

First, the OP and the seller are residents of Pennsylvania. Under the laws of that State all transfers of handguns must go through an FFL. To the extent that the OP might be participating in a violation of that law he can have criminal liability as a conspirator, as an aider and abettor, or as an accessory -- depending on the exact circumstances and the specifics of Pennsylvania law.

As far as any violations of federal law, e. g., the selling FFL transferring a gun to an individual without the formalities required under federal law, the OP can have criminal liability under 18 USC 2:

(a) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.

(b) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.

[JoeSixpack]

Hey Frank clear something up for me.

It's my understanding you can ship a long gun thru the postal service as a regular citizen, but not hand guns, Only FFL's can ship handguns thru USPS.

On the other hand I have no weapon signs on all the post offices in my area.

Assuming I understand correct how do you reconcile those two things?

[carguychris]

IMHO this scenario is clearly illegal for the reasons outlined by TomNJVA and Frank Ettin. I'd put this in the "facile sham" category.

Originally Posted by Nickel Plated

The handgun was shipped via USPS. When USPS attempted delivery, it was early in the morning before the receiving FFL was open. So the package went back to the post office. Unlike UPS and FedEx. USPS doesn't do multiple delivery attempts. If you miss it you gotta go to the PO to get it in person.

I think a clarification is in order. USPS does not automatically attempt redelivery, but they will do so upon request. You can file a request online using the slip that the mail carrier leaves at the destination. Been there, done that.

The receiving FFL has an obligation to the customer to see to it that the item is transferred in compliance with all applicable laws. This is THEIR problem to resolve. Actually, it sounds like this FFL needs to invest in a PO box if they don't want this scenario to repeat itself.

Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen

It sounds like shipping handguns via USPS is not a good idea. This is something that hadn't occurred to me before. If I were the seller I would want to make damn sure my gun was going to be legally transferred in the new owners name and I would use a shipping service that can insure this happens.

Poppycock. As a business owner, the receiving FFL has a duty to the customer to understand how the system works, and to ensure that they can take delivery of items shipped to them using methods commonly used in the industry.

It's much cheaper to ship handguns via USPS because they don't require the use of high-security but exorbitantly-priced Next Day Air services like UPS and FedEx do. Hence, almost every FFL uses USPS. That's why sellers are able to ship for ~$25 or so. Would YOU rather pay $75+?

Strangely enough, every FFL I've used has no difficulty promptly taking delivery of handguns shipped via USPS. (Paging TFL user Dogtown Tom. Paging Dogtown Tom. )

[Frank Ettin]

Regarding "no weapons is a post office", the regulations permit weapons for official business. That would include permissible mailing. And no federal prosecutor is going to get anywhere with a weapons violation charge when the gun is all packed and wrapped securely for mailing.

[zipspyder]

All I have to say is OP created this himself by making it harder than it had to be. Just contact the local FFL and ask if they could pick it up for an extra fee at the post office. Worth the hassle just to get the gun imho at this point.

[JoeSixpack]

@Frank seems logical to me but I wasn't sure, Laws regarding guns rarely make sense.

@carguychris
I've had a few come in that was shipped via ground, I think fedex but I know for sure UPS ground.

I just had a delivery from Kentucky gun go that was shipped UPS ground, took 2 days KY->OH..
The scary part was my FFL actually missed the 1st attempt at delivery much like the OP's

Except UPS attempted delivery again the next day and was successful..
I didn't so much mind it since I was waiting on another order from a different dealer anyway so I could pick them up together.

The other dealer sent via USPS though so I hope my FFL does not miss that one I don't wanna end up in a situation like the OP.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by zipspyder

Just contact the local FFL and ask if they could pick it up for an extra fee at the post office.

There should be no extra fee. This should be included in the transfer. It's the cost of doing business!

Let's all hope that the Spirit Airlines / Ryanair business model doesn't start being applied to FFLs.

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

@carguychris
I've had a few come in that was shipped via ground, I think fedex but I know for sure UPS ground.

The OP's scenario involved handguns. Every time I've checked, it's been a clear violation of the UPS tariff to ship a handgun using any service that's not some version of Next Day Air.

Of course, some folks will always break the rules, and all I can offer is that I wish them godspeed should the firearm get lost in transit.

OTOH and AFAIK, UPS does allow shipment of long guns and stripped frames and receivers via Ground, but that's not the original topic of the thread. Point being, the rules are different for handguns, whether it's USPS, UPS, or FedEx.

[zipspyder]

There should be no extra fee. This should be included in the transfer. It's the cost of doing business!

@carguychris - No it is not unless that is part of their routine. Especially if said Post Office is 20 miles away for just one gun. Time is money as well for a special trip. They can call to request a re-delivery to the FFL address. You assume too much for the "cost of business".

[Aguila Blanca]

One other poiunt about the OP just picking the box up at the post office and going home. I believe that would be breaking the law, both PA and federal.

Frank has noted that PA law requires all handgun transfers to go through an FFL. If the OP picks up the box and goes home, the transfer to him has not gone through an FFL. Sure, the seller is an FFL in PA ... but the seller recorded that firearm in his bound book as having been sent to the receiving FFL. If the OP intercepts the shipment, the chain is broken.

And those bound books are effectively federal records. Again, if the OP were to intercept the shipment, the chain of custody would be broken. I haven't researched the federal laws and BATFE regulations, but I have to think that would somehow be illegal.

[Concerned Citizen]

Poppycock. As a business owner, the receiving FFL has a duty to the customer to understand how the system works, and to ensure that they can take delivery of items shipped to them using methods commonly used in the industry.

But what if they don't? That's the scenario the OP is presenting.

It's much cheaper to ship handguns via USPS because they don't require the use of high-security but exorbitantly-priced Next Day Air services like UPS and FedEx do. Hence, almost every FFL uses USPS. That's why sellers are able to ship for ~$25 or so. Would YOU rather pay $75+?

Why does it need to cost so much to ship via UPS? I ship fluu size audio components via UPS and it only costs $30-$45 or so on average. A handgun should be much cheaper. You don't need all the extra security or add-ons. The fact is that they will attempt deliver the package several times, for one thing, USPS won't do that.

Strangely enough, every FFL I've used has no difficulty promptly taking delivery of handguns shipped via USPS.

Well good for you. I haven't had any problems either, but I've bought only new firearms through the mail and I don't think any of them used USPS. There is always a first time that an FFL dealer will fail, not necessarily because they are bad or unprofessional but things can happen.

[JoeSixpack]

Originally Posted by carguychris

The OP's scenario involved handguns. Every time I've checked, it's been a clear violation of the UPS tariff to ship a handgun using any service that's not some version of Next Day Air.

Of course, some folks will always break the rules, and all I can offer is that I wish them godspeed should the firearm get lost in transit.

Ya it looks like you're right, But the shipment I mentioned was a pair of Taurus 809's.. so ya handgun(s)

I've never been to but have seen pictures of KyGunCo, They look like a large store, I would have thought a big shop like that would know better.

It does make me think back I was offered insurance.. but I thought.. nah can't remember the last time something was broken during shipment.

Now makes me think maybe they knew if something happen UPS was going to say to bad so sad, You can't even imagine how upset I'd be in that situation.

Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen

A handgun should be much cheaper. You don't need all the extra security or add-ons.
~
There is always a first time that an FFL dealer will fail, not necessarily because they are bad or unprofessional but things can happen.

Maybe it's to keep their own employee's from ripping the gun off.. less time they have it, plus I guess you can't use the ol "it fell off the truck" bit for air planes.
I remember one dealer said he had UPS claim they delivered a gun that they didn't, They accused him of lying until he told them he had security video clearly showing no UPS truck ever arrived that day.

I agree things can happen, If the dealer had an emergency I could hardly fault them for not sticking around to receive my gun.

One thing that kinda makes me wonder is what about shops that aren't open every day? or aren't open till after the mail man has already ran?
I wonder if USPS can drop such things in a drop box? or does it have to go into the hands of a human being?
Maybe work out agreement not to deliver mail that day?

We've got a rather large store in the area that is not open on mondays iirc.



OH btw good news my USPS shipment arrived this morning at my dealer so im hoping they wanna do the transfer today but they're kitchen table FFL so it's not like 9-5 hours and it is labor day weekend.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JoeSixPack

One thing that kinda makes me wonder is what about shops that aren't open every day? or aren't open till after the mail man has already ran?
I wonder if USPS can drop such things in a drop box? or does it have to go into the hands of a human being?
Maybe work out agreement not to deliver mail that day?

We've got a rather large store in the area that is not open on mondays iirc.

The range and shop where I shoot isn't open on Mondays. The UPS driver knows this, and holds packages until Tuesday. Mail gets delivered to the shop next door, the proprietors of which are friendly with the owner of the range/shop.

[JoeSixpack]

I meant USPS delivered guns, if the shop is closed monday what happens?
They don't just leave it with the business next door do they?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JoeSixPack

I meant USPS delivered guns, if the shop is closed monday what happens?
They don't just leave it with the business next door do they?

I haven't asked that specifically, but I believe they do. After all, most handguns will easily fit in a small Flat Rate box, and that's the way most FFLs (at least, in my experience) mail handguns. There's nothing on the outside to indicate that it's a gun. The postman just leaves the mail with the guys next door, and they stop in later in the afternoon, after the gun shop has opened.

[Nickel Plated]

First, the OP and the seller are residents of Pennsylvania. Under the laws of that State all transfers of handguns must go through an FFL. To the extent that the OP might be participating in a violation of that law he can have criminal liability as a conspirator, as an aider and abettor, or as an accessory -- depending on the exact circumstances and the specifics of Pennsylvania law.

Hmm I was not aware of this. I assumed FTF transfers of handguns were treated the same as long guns in PA. I just moved here from NYC and admit I haven't taken the time to sift through the finer points of the law. Nice to know.
I guess that would definitely be a way for them to get you.

All I have to say is OP created this himself by making it harder than it had to be. Just contact the local FFL and ask if they could pick it up for an extra fee at the post office. Worth the hassle just to get the gun imho at this point.

I don't really see how I created anything. All I did was have a handgun shipped from one FFL to another. I have no control over when USPS makes their deliveries. And that's exactly what I did. Called the FFL, they picked the gun up today. So it's waiting for me at the shop.
I admit, after this I would rather just make the drive and pick it up in person. Or buy local. But I was buying a Gen 2 Glock 17. Not rare, but not exactly something you can just walk into any random local gun shop and expect them to have it.

Anyway my curiosity has been satisfied. Like I thought, it's a legal can-o-worms that's better off not being messed with.

[zipspyder]

I don't really see how I created anything. All I did was have a handgun shipped from one FFL to another.

Easy...ship it to your residence since it's in state purchase. You know your USPS home delivery times and can pick it up later if not home. Your whole point of the thread is you created the scenario yourself by going FFL to FFL and had an issue. I'm not sure where the disconnect is in understanding that? Just replying since you quoted me, not trying to make a big deal of it.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by zipspyder

Easy...ship it to your residence since it's in state purchase.

It's an in-state purchase in a state that requires all transfers of handguns to go through a licensed FFL. Your advice is inapplicable.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by zipspyder

.......ship it to your residence since it's in state purchase. ...

You're obviously not paying attention, and you clearly don't understand the applicable law.

In addition to the fact that this takes place in Pennsylvania and that under Pennsylvania law all handgun transfers must go through an FFL --

1. The OP bought a gun from an FFL.
   
   
2. Under federal law an FFL is prohibited from shipping a gun to the purchaser (18 USC 922(a)(2)).
   
   
3. Under federal law (18 USC 922(c)) an FFL may sell a gun to a non-licensee who doesn't personally appear at his place of business only if the following conditions are satisfied:

   (1) the transferee submits to the transferor a sworn statement in the following form:
   

   “Subject to penalties provided by law, I swear that, in the case of any firearm other than a shotgun or a rifle, I am twenty-one years or more of age, or that, in the case of a shotgun or a rifle, I am eighteen years or more of age; that I am not prohibited by the provisions of chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, from receiving a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; and that my receipt of this firearm will not be in violation of any statute of the State and published ordinance applicable to the locality in which I reside. Further, the true title, name, and address of the principal law enforcement officer of the locality to which the firearm will be delivered are ____________
   
   _______________________
   
   Signature _________ Date ____.”

   and containing blank spaces for the attachment of a true copy of any permit or other information required pursuant to such statute or published ordinance;
   
   (2) the transferor has, prior to the shipment or delivery of the firearm, forwarded by registered or certified mail (return receipt requested) a copy of the sworn statement, together with a description of the firearm, in a form prescribed by the Attorney General, to the chief law enforcement officer of the transferee’s place of residence, and has received a return receipt evidencing delivery of the statement or has had the statement returned due to the refusal of the named addressee to accept such letter in accordance with United States Post Office Department regulations; and
   
   (3) the transferor has delayed shipment or delivery for a period of at least seven days following receipt of the notification of the acceptance or refusal of delivery of the statement.
   
   A copy of the sworn statement and a copy of the notification to the local law enforcement officer, together with evidence of receipt or rejection of that notification shall be retained by the licensee as a part of the records required to be kept under section 923(g).

4. Under federal law (18 USC 922(t)) an FFL may not transfer a gun to a non-licensee without satisfying certain background check requirements at the FFL's place of business.

So no, the OP could not have had the gun sent directly to him by the selling FFL, and the selling FFL could not legally have sent the gun directly to the OP.

[carguychris]

Kinda forgot about this thread.

Originally Posted by carguychris

There should be no extra fee. This should be included in the transfer. It's the cost of doing business!

Originally Posted by zipspyder

No it is not unless that is part of their routine. Especially if said Post Office is 20 miles away for just one gun. Time is money as well for a special trip. They can call to request a re-delivery to the FFL address. You assume too much for the "cost of business".

I'll concede your point if the buyer is demanding that the FFL pick up the firearm THE SAME DAY, or at some other unanticipated time.

OTOH given the common use of USPS in the industry, I would find it unfair and deceptive for a FFL to categorically charge extra for USPS pickup unless this is very clearly explained up front.

Originally Posted by Concerned Citizen

Why does it need to cost so much to ship via UPS? I ship fluu size audio components via UPS and it only costs $30-$45 or so on average. A handgun should be much cheaper. You don't need all the extra security or add-ons. The fact is that they will attempt deliver the package several times, for one thing, USPS won't do that.

The UPS shipping rules require that handguns go Next Day Air. Although I've not heard this confirmed by a first-hand source, the most common explanation is that these packages go into a special area where they're basically under surveillance 24/7 to prevent unauthorized employees from messing with them.

FWIW another wrinkle is that FedEx and UPS bar the use of drop boxes, driver pick-up, and franchisee-operated shipping centers such as the UPS Store; you have to ship from a company-operated shipping center, which can be a major PITA if you're not located near a major population center or commercial airport.

Originally Posted by JoeSixpack

One thing that kinda makes me wonder is what about shops that aren't open every day? or aren't open till after the mail man has already ran?
I wonder if USPS can drop such things in a drop box? or does it have to go into the hands of a human being?

Many "kitchen table" FFLs use PO boxes for exactly this reason. Such FFLs often maintain oddball hours that don't coincide with the local mail carriers' delivery times.

An FFL is allowed to take possession of firearms in any location where firearms may be lawfully possessed, including a PO box. If you look at an actual license (often posted on the dealer's wall), there's a space for "Mailing Address" in case it's different than the physical premises address; this lets other FFLs know that the PO box shipping address is legit.