High speed chase-3 colateral deaths. AZ

[C.R.Sam]

Prescott Arizona.

“It was just one of those things,”

http://www.communitypapers.com/daily...ubID=6110&EC=0

Sam

[beemerb]

Was this justified????????? I have people tell me on this forum that a car is replaceable and one should not shoot someone over a car theft.Well three people died over this one and none where involved.How many standards are there is this country???????
PS.Maybe this chief of police should report back to rampart division in LA where he came from.


Prescott mourns 3 after collision with
stolen SUV

Mark Shaffer
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 27, 2001

PRESCOTT - It was a
lunchtime rush full of tears
Friday at St. Michael Caffe,
across the street from historic
Courthouse Square.

Everybody's buddy, 18-year-old
Danny Kamholz, along with
two of his friends had been
killed early in the day when
their pickup was hit by a stolen
vehicle being chased by
Prescott Valley police.

Kamholz; Evan Spencer, 18, of Prescott; and Wylld Ferro, 25, of Lake
Havasu City, died at the scene.

A bouquet of carnations atop a parking meter marked the scene Friday
afternoon. The inscription: "We love and miss you, Danny."

"This thing has just broken our hearts," cafe manager Greg Loomis said.

"It's just insane that he died this way. What's going on with a chase in
the middle of town like that?"

The Department of Public Safety is
investigating the incident, which involved
an eight-mile chase that began at a
Prescott Valley Circle K and injured a
police officer who shot the suspect.

Prescott Valley Police Chief Daniel
Schatz defended his department's
actions.

"Our officers did a marvelous job,"
Schatz said. "We weren't just chasing a
traffic violator. We were chasing a
violent, fleeing felon, and we were
making every attempt to take him into
custody."

The deadly incident began shortly after
midnight Friday when the Yavapai
County Sheriff's Office put out an
all-points bulletin for a stolen, late
model, sport utility vehicle.

A Prescott Valley officer spotted the vehicle at a Circle K but was
ignored when he ordered the driver to get out of the vehicle, police said.

Instead, the driver barreled out of the parking lot, aiming the SUV at
another officer, who fired at the driver before being hit, officers said. The
officer was treated for cuts and bruises at Yavapai Regional Medical
Center and released.

"The officer was in fear for his life and fired at the suspect, and, as we
found out later, struck him once," Schatz said.

The driver, however, led police on an eight-mile chase that reached
speeds of 85 mph.

The suspect's SUV struck the victims' truck so hard that it knocked the
smaller vehicle's engine from its block. The suspect's vehicle then
careered into some parked cars and caught fire.

The suspect was pulled from the fire and taken into custody before being
airlifted to a John C. Lincoln Hospital in Phoenix. He was listed in critical
condition Friday night, Schatz said.

The DPS was trying to determine the suspect's identity with fingerprints.

Schatz said his officers violated no departmental policies on pursuits.

Prescott police Sgt. Shane Reed said he couldn't comment on the
pursuit or whether it was within guidelines of his department.

Reed said Prescott Valley police notified Prescott police of the chase
and had jurisdiction to continue it within Prescott city limits.

No other agencies took part in the pursuit, officials said.

The shooting by the officer was the first in the 20-year history of the
Prescott Valley department, Schatz said.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/0127prescott27.html

[glockten]

The felon involved tried to kill a police officer with his vehicle; that's what initiated the pursuit.

To me, blaming the police for deaths resulting from the pursuit of a violent criminal is equivalent to blaming guns for violent crime.

[mrat]

posted by glockten,
"To me, blaming the police for deaths resulting from the pursuit of a violent criminal is equivalent to blaming guns for violent crime."

glockten,
I agree with you 110%. As we RKBA people are fond of saying, the criminal is responsible for their own actions not objects or other people. Unfortunately some people will blame the police for incidents because of their personal dislike of the police.

As glockten stated, there was a bit more to this story than just a stolen vehicle.

[Dead]

Sometimes a pursuit should be called off! I saw one on Cops (or something like), were there was a HIGHSPEED chase on a crowded highway! In the end the chase was ended when there was a collision between the person fleeing and a family traveling to a relatives for dinner or something. Mind you this was over a $20 tank of gas nothing more.

[beemerb]

In response;
A radio is faster then the fastest car and roadblocks work.

[Libertarian]

posted by glockten,
"To me, blaming the police for deaths resulting from the pursuit of a violent criminal is equivalent to blaming guns for violent crime."

glockten,
I agree with you 110%. As we RKBA people are fond of saying, the criminal is responsible for their own actions not objects or other people. Unfortunately some people will blame the police for incidents because of their personal dislike of the police.

As glockten stated, there was a bit more to this story than just a stolen vehicle.

If a gun owner used his gun in rigtheous self defense but also closed his eyes and "sprayed and prayed" and innocent bystanders were hit, it would be the fault of that gun owner. Any correct action must remain correct from beginning to end or the consequences are shared.

The cops sometimes push a pursuit beyond its reasonable limits. Chasing a fleeing vehicle into crowded areas is as wrong as shooting into that same crowd even if they were aiming only at the fleeing car! (And I am not a cop hater. I only hate bad cops.)

[glockten]

Cops don't "push" pursuits. At any time, the fleeing criminal is free to pull over, surrender, and cease to endanger innocent lives.

I predict we'll hear the "would you rather have anarchy" argument within 5 posts.

[C.R.Sam]

"Schatz said his officers violated no departmental policies on pursuits."

This was not a freeway chase. The road from Prescott Valley goes through a mountain pass, there are many intersections, the maximum speed limit is 55mph and the majority of the route is limited to 45mph or less.

I agree with Bob and Lib on this one. Why chase at 85 when you can call ahead and trap the thief.

Just a few months ago the same department chased one at similar speeds through a residential area. One fatal. Chase began because car looked "suspicious".

I am not anti Peace Officer. I am anti Rambo.

Sam

[LawDog]

I loathe high-speed chases.

Was this one justified? I don't know, I wasn't there.

I would tend to believe that I would chase the SOB if he tried to kill me. I also tend to hope that if he was close enough to injure me with his vehicle, I would be close enough not to miss with my weapon.

Roadblocks are fairly successful in stopping these critters, but you have to know where the critter is going to throw up a roadblock in front of him. Especially in a city or town with with multiple cross roads to turn off on. For that information, someone has to be following him. A vicious circle there.

My sympathies go out to the families.

LawDog

[beemerb]

Prescott angered by fatal pursuit

Mark Shaffer
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 28, 2001

PRESCOTT - Prescott civic leaders on Saturday strongly condemned a
decision by Prescott Valley police to chase a stolen-vehicle suspect at
high speeds into downtown Prescott early Friday, resulting in a crash
that killed three people.

"Prescott Valley is going to have a hard time public relations-wise in
justifying this kind of thing," said Councilman Robert Behnke, a former
police officer in Pasadena, Calif. "I mean, what are their pursuit policies?
At some point, you have to say that you will back away and just say
that we will get the guy later."

Prescott Valley Police Chief Daniel
Schatz on Friday defended his
department's actions, saying that
the officers, without assistance from
other agencies, were "chasing a
violent, fleeing felon, and we were
making every attempt to take him
into custody."

Behnke said that he understood that "passions were high" after the
unidentified suspect struck an officer with the vehicle at a Prescott
Valley Circle K.

"But I would have thought that they would have thought about it and
called ahead for help from Prescott police" rather than just clearing it
with Prescott police to continue the pursuit, Behnke said.

Prescott police have a policy against pursuit through the city, Mayor
Sam Steiger said.

"That's (Prescott Valley's) not a very good police department," Steiger
said. "It's not just 'one of those things' to run through the heart of
Prescott like that."

Steiger said Prescott police officials were "disappointed" that tire spikes
were not requested by Prescott Valley police. The spikes could have
been placed at an interchange of Arizona 69 leading into downtown.

But Sgt. P.J. Janik of Prescott Valley police said it was "very difficult to
strategize where this guy was going."

Another problem was that the suspect was driving at a speed of 85 mph
or more and arrived at the intersection in about five minutes.

Plus, Janik said, "it wasn't like he was on a one-way section of freeway.
There were numerous roads that he could have turned on."

Bob White, deputy police chief in Flagstaff, said pursuits provide vexing
problems for officers.

White noted that Flagstaff police had sufficient time to place tire spikes
on U.S. 89A last week during a pursuit that had originated in Sedona.
The spikes detoured the fleeing suspects into a Flagstaff subdivision,
where they were apprehended.

"That ended well, or we could have had that story ending up right next to
this one," White said. "The fundamental component of our pursuit policy
is despite what the suspect did, our officers have to articulate whether
the danger is so great that something else will happen if they don't
pursue him."

Meanwhile, Prescott Valley police continued to try to identify the driver
of the stolen vehicle, which crashed into a pickup truck and killed
18-year-old Daniel Kamholz and Evan Spencer of Prescott and
25-year-old Wylld Ferro of Lake Havasu City.

Joe Hall, a friend of Kamholz, said the three had been shooting pool in a
downtown Prescott nightspot and had left to visit a girlfriend of one of the
victims when the fatal crash occurred.

Janik said that the suspect had no identification and could be an
immigrant from Latin America. Fingerprints were sent to the Immigration
and Naturalization Service for evaluation, Janik said.

Police also are seeking a second man who was inside the Circle K at
the time the chase began and could have been a passenger in the
stolen vehicle.

The vehicle that the man had been driving was reported stolen late
Thursday in the Prescott Country Club area.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/0128prescott28.html

Lots of people very angery about this,including ex-leo's.
Second thing is how much money is this going to cost the taxpayers?Lots I would assume.

[Charmedlyfe]

Guys, 'roadblocks' like the ones you see on TV cannot be used because they have been deemed too dangerous. The courts have determined that you must leave at least one route open to the suspect should he decide not to stop for the roadblock. I know about this because officers I worked with set up a roadblock to stop a suspect from a violent (very) incident. They were reprimanded and had the case law read to them. Luckily, no issue was made of this, and no-one was hurt. I'm just glad I was on a different squad, but being an FTO, I had the info passed on to me.

I believe that they should have chased this guy for trying to kill a cop. Just like I'd chase a guy to hell and gone for raping your wife....even if he had not intent to kill her. See the action, not the uniform....

[TekChef]

This is a terrible incident, and prehaps there was a bad call on the part of the LEO, however, what it all boils down to are the actions of a person who chose to break the law.
I hope they put that piece of S*** in jail for life.

[glockten]

What really angers me about this incident is that the perpetrator was hospitalized.

It should have been left in the burning vehicle.

[Sodbuster]

The police officer injured was hardly injured. If one of those three dead were a child of mine, Schatz would be picking up his teeth off the pavemnent. Then I would get mad. I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone supporting the police on this. Totally unexcusable. BTW, sounds as though the injured officer will be just fine, thank you.

[Jordan]

Attn Pro-cop TFL'ers: You might consider an e-mail to Glockten asking him to quit hurting your position with his ridiculous(a) and volatile(b) statements.

(a) Glockten states:
"Cops don't 'push' pursuits. At any time the fleeing criminal is free to pull over, surrender, and cease to endanger innocent lives."

I see. Entrust the criminal to exercise the judgement to know when it's time to stop in the interest of protecting innocent lives! Why not just sign your PD paycheck over to him? That's why we call them criminals... they have no regard for the safety of innocent lives. That is (or was) YOUR job.

In my book, a policeman's **first priority** is to provide PROTECTION to citizens. Citizen's safety is the reason police exist. Once their security is assured *then* knock yourself out catching the bad guys. I know this kind of discipline is going to cut into your addrenaline quotient, but we didn't hire you so that you could get your "rush" acting out Steve McQueen fantasies on our streets.

As for the sad possibility that this guy may have gotten away... well, as it turned out, that sacrifice would have bought 3 boys their lives.

Glocten tries to make a parallel in another post between this incident and gun responsibility.

Here's a parallel: We know cars can be dangerous weapons just like guns. What if this was a rolling FIREFIGHT instead of car chase? Police and bad guy exchanging high volumes of lead (ala "Heat") starting in the outskirts of town but moving into a crowded shopping area. At what point do police HOLD THEIR FIRE? And yes, even at the risk of the suspect getting away. Cop's bullets are dangerous to innocents too! And backing a willing shooter into a desparate corner occupied by Sunday shoppers doesn't seem like sound SOP.

That's something else not yet mentioned in this thread-- the likelyhood that one of many pursuing cops (who are also reaching speeds of 85mph, presumeably) would lose control and strike something important. Statistically it would stand to reason that 10 speeding cop cars are 10X more likely to hurt someone. Until you consider the arrogance factor... that somehow "cops can drive at high speed 100% safely while 'civies' can't".


(b) And as for volatile (pun definately NOT intended):

Glocten states: "...angers me.. is that perpetrator was hospitalized. It(sic) should have been left in the burning vehicle."

I don't even know where to start with this one except to say that, when I read words like that, my temper flares hot and is good for Glocten (and me) that we have the whole WWW between us.

[glockten]

Jordan,

Regarding your point (a), my point was that no one forces a felon to run from police. If, of his own free will, he chooses to do so, he assumes responsibility for all injuries, death, and damage resulting from the pursuit.

You seem to refer to me as if I was a police officer. Where in my posts did I make that claim?

If you can give an example of a rolling firefight (outside of a Hollywood film), I will consider that analogy seriously.

Regarding your point (b), when someone displays such a blatant disregard for others' lives as this "person" did, don't expect me to care if it dies.

But your disapproval and contempt for me has wounded me to the bone! I shall have to carry on, somehow, in the hope that I will one day measure up to your standards.

[Jordan]

Glockten:
I see you are being very careful to miss my point.

Obviously no one forces a bad guy to run. But you would have us place responsibility for the safety of the community in the hands of a criminal. He's certainly not looking out for the innocents around him. He's not thinking, "I better slow down/surrender. I'm going to hurt someone driving like this."
We might,however, expect police to exercise that kind of judgement.

It boils down to this: If police placed CITIZEN SAFETY as their first priority they would plainly see that it was THE CHASE itself that was becoming the biggest hazard to the community.... not a SUV thief at large.

The analogy of the rolling firefight was just that... an analogy. An attempt to make a point by illustrating a _hypothetical_ parallel to this chase situation. I am not obligated to provide a real world example for the parallel to hold true.
As a matter of fact it's a pretty good one so what do you say?
Good guys/bad guys engaged in lengthy firefight chasing perp through highly populated area... resulting in many innocent dead/wounded, damage to property, etc. but they "get their man". Have the cops succeeded in their mission to protect the citizenry?

You can BLAME all that loss on the BG if it helps you feel better but at the end of the day everyone's hands are bloody and the police have FAILED THEIR MISSION.

If the police had held their fire would the perp continue to shoot up the town as he slinked away? Not likely.

If, in the Prescott case, the police had backed off as the chase continued into a busy area, would the perp have continued at high speeds resulting in a crash and 3 deaths? Argueably not.

Re: Leaving him in the burning car... when sailors sink an enemy ship they pull the enemy sailors out of the water. Enemy sailors that were trying to kill them a few moments earlier.
There are a few cases where the sunken ship's surviving crew were left to die... we call it a "war crime".

[mrat]

Sodbuster,
Thankyou for your concern for the well being of that officer. I guess it would be better if he died. You missed the point, the idiot tried to run the officer over.

Beemerb,
Roadblocks don't work. The BGs just go around them.

If I had my way ALL police pursuits would be forbidden. Of course then the pieces of crap would always takeoff once the cops show up, but oh well. Then what would be posted here is how lazy and stupid the cops are since they can't catch anybody.

Now I remember why I was avoiding this part of TFL.

I agree that this was a terrible tragedy. Until someone comes up with a REALISTIC and WORKABLE solution with how to deal with these kinds of situations I view it as the usual criticism of LEOs. What you guys need to realize about this is there are no easy solutions. I know it might be hard to imagine but law enforcement agencies are looking for better ways to deal with this.

[Sodbuster]

Policy for high-speed chases should already be in place, and followed. Standard operating procedure in other words. I'm concerned for the families of the three victims, I mean three dead people. If an LE can't accept some of the risk involved with the job, he or she should quit and sell shoes. The officer almost run over was hardly injured, but that is not a germaine point of my argument anyway. What's the difference between what happened and if an ambulance had been involved? Emergency vehicles have a responsibility to be aware of other traffic. As has been mentioned already, radios work wonders. How often has the BG escaped arrest on something like this? There is nowhere for him to go. Schatz's comments expose him for the imbecile he is. I'll never understand how people can justify the deaths of three innocent people, but that's exactly what he is doing. I believe in the civil suits to follow in the months ahead, Schatz has reason for concern. High speed chases have resulted in needless deaths too many times. They should be banned by every department. You know LE is going to catch these BGs anyway, no matter if they run a red light or run over an officer. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I don't wish the officer had died. But in THIS PARTICULAR CASE, no, I'm not that concerned for the officer. He is OK, isn't he.

[12-34hom]

High speed chases are inherintly dangerous for all involved, and each one should be evaluated on its merits, not by what = someone has seen on t.v. and they make armchair observations about how things "should have been done" or how "i would have handeled it".

This subject tried to run over a police officer with a stolen vehicle = attemted murder. He chose to escalate the situation and officers acted within scope of the law trying to apprehend the driver who commited a forcable felony.

As for the three citizens killed, tragic no doubt, but blaming police for there deaths is wrong. Hey, but blame has to be assigned to someone, and wrongful death actions will result, how deep are the pockets of this felon compared to the city in which it took place?

Every agency should have a policy concerning high speed chases. Some do and don't, but chasing a violent felon should be allowed IMHO.

[Matt VDW]

Guys, 'roadblocks' like the ones you see on TV cannot be used because they have been deemed too dangerous. The courts have determined that you must leave at least one route open to the suspect should he decide not to stop for the roadblock.

Too dangerous for whom?

[Al Thompson]

Everybody just take a deep breath. Lots of good points being made and an interesting thread.

Keep it on the Highroad. Want to get personal, take it to email.

Gizmo99

"just dropping by"

[Long Path]

I'm stirred up, and I'm one of the most open-minded people I know!

Gentlemen and Ladies-- I know you're scrolling down past this post, all fired up to slap a double-throw-down left-click on that "Post Reply" button at the bottom of the screen but...

WAIT.

STOP.

THINK. Really THINK about that position that the person you're all hell-bent on opposing is taking. The way I see it, this is an arguement about comparitive justice values. About half of us are so outraged at the theft of those boys' lives that we would be ready to see a violent felon get away not to risk their deaths, and about half of us stand firm that a violent felon is to be relentlessly pursued, and that any consequences are firmly on the shoulders of that criminal who could have ended the pursuit at any time.

• As a (little L) libertarian, I tend to say the boys' lives were too precious to endanger.
  
• As a cop, I say "Hunt the SOB down at all costs!"

My answer would come somewhere around Lawdog's.

--------------
I have NEVER heard of such foolishness as the caselaw that George cites regarding road blocks! Now don't get your feathers up; I'm sure it exists in some court's case law, somewhere (never underestimate the stupidity potential of a court ruling), but it is certainly not applicable to my jurisdiction. (There are many, many, many courts and jurisdictions in these United States, and one does not govern all.) I am bewildered at exactly what good a road block would DO, if you were chasing someone who didn't want to be stopped, but left them a way out.


So go ahead and post, but that hothead that just ticked you off that you're about to retort to... he's one of us, and he's right, to some extent. Keep that in mind, okay?

"Play Ball!"

L.P.