DA/SA Trigger drills

[garrettwc]

Can anyone recommend some good drills for mastering the DA trigger and the DA/SA transition?

[tork]

can't you just de-cock it?
then get used to the transition, first shot da, second shot sa, then decock.

[mete]

Practice helps but many have to change hand position between SA and DA which complicates things ! A DAO or SA gun is the better way.Some say the DA/SA is 'miss, hit,hit, hit '!!

[Talon66]

Some say the DA/SA is 'miss, hit,hit, hit '!!

The guy that sold Glock 22's to our local police service told me that when he was giving his sales pitch, that was one point that he impressed upon the brass. They bought it.

The best advice I can give is to shoot controlled pairs, decock, holster or low ready and repeat. Don't be in a rush to get the next set off. Then work on 3 shots. Don't stage the trigger on the DA shot. Make it one continuous press. Good luck. Hope it helps.

[threegun]

I use the same pitch on customers when selling a Glock. The da to sa transition is a serious disadvantage. It is aggravated by two things, limited practice and stress. With tons of practice time focusing on first shot da next shot sa you can get very good with it. During a stressful encounter the brain usually reverts back to training. Now when pulling the trigger under stress the brain will accept the weight and lenght of the da pull, then cause you shoot the second shot earlier as it tries to duplicate the da pull. It has happened to me at matches despite a training regiment specifically designed to overcome it. I believe it is one of the factors in the dismal hit ratio for LE. It was a big factor in my switch to Glock pistols so long ago. Good luck.

[The British Soldier]

I experienced a similar predicament when I transitioned from the Browning to SIG P226 in military service; that DA trigger pull was unusual but smooth. Tork's post nailed the drill perfectly; we are trained to fire 'double taps' from the first day we pick up a pistol. It's easy with an SA pistol. With the P226 we would fire one DA, one SA and then decock. That repetition is the only way to learn the way to shoot it, so that you expect the light pull second time around.

It is most applicable for the first double tap during an engagement, as you have drawn the pistol and are engaging the first 'target'. Thereafter, of course, you have the remainder of the magazine on SA only.

A skill to be acquired and honed, because I imagine that you would probably hope to only fire one double tap - after that it should be all over and your opponent would be looking at the sky wondering what happened.

[garrettwc]

While the Glock sales pitch is appreciated, that's not the topic of this thread. It's about putting more rounds downrange in practice, not buying a new gun.

Some say the DA/SA is 'miss, hit,hit, hit '!!

I gotta call bull feathers on this one. Unless someone can convince me that guys like Ernest Langdon winning all those matches with Berettas and Sigs was a fluke.

Thanks, Brit Soldier. That's more like it. So you guys went straight to double taps? Did you start slow (i.e. fire the DA shot then feel for the reset and fire the second SA shot) or did you go straight to double taps (two quick shots)?

[cscoios]

Great thread!

I have the same issues with my P220. I love the gun but my first DA pull is usually off target, while the remaining SA are dead on. I practice just as British Soldier said, DA and then SA, then decock and start over.

This is why I'm looking to purchase the new Sig 220 SAO, all the benifits of the SA 1911 with the reliability of the Sig 220.

[threegun]

You can practice until blue in the face, when the stress hits and autopilot is engaged, your second shot will be high. Your brain is going to subconsciously give the trigger finger the same pressure it took to fire the previous shot, given the lighter and shorter weight and pull of the SA, your second shot will pop prematurely. Practice will correct the problem up and until your brain goes on autopilot (when you are reacting without thinking). I had it happen to me under match stress when I first started shooting competition.

Of course I could be wrong and the problem was my training. Five days a week dryfire practice to work on da mode( and other drills at work). Weekly range practice with the final 40 rounds being fired as double taps hammer down, reload double tap sa. Thats 10 transitions from da to sa in rapid double tap mode. 20 reloads and 10 sa double taps. Almost every week for a year. It helped but not on auotpilot so I sold my 92. So many people have similar problems that it can't be lack or training.

[The British Soldier]

I have never really got along with DAO triggers. I was involved in a trial in Northern Ireland with the Police, who were looking for something to replace their Ruger .357 revolvers. They had a SIG P228 DAO and a Glock 19 with the New York Plus (18lb) trigger; the SIG was 14lb trigger and smooth, the Glock was heavy and I dislike the additional weight having used a normal Glock.

I found it very difficult to double tap quickly with either pistol, but especially the SIG DAO. This was early 90s, so I trust they have improved.

I feel for those NYPD fellas who have to pull those triggers - they must work out to shoot!

[threegun]

Cosistent is the key. Either harder or lighter. The change from one shot to the next stinks. While I hated the da pull of my beretta, I don't hate da. Give me a good smith and wesson revolver and I'm in da heaven.

[j1132s]

Hi garrettwc,

I love the DA/SA trigger; I think it's the best carry/combat trigger.
Initially I have a hard time w/ the first DA shot, but now I'm fine w/
either DA or SA.

The way I practice is to dry fire lots in DA. I found trigger pull
positions for each pistol such that the DA and SA shots both
put my finger on the same trigger location. E.g. for HK it's somewhere
near the bottom "J" hook part of the trigger.

Also, at the range, I do a few more DA shots where the gun is decocked
often.

[npcolin]

Try practising with an airsoft pistol.

[DunedinDragon]

Because my P220 is my primary carry gun I'm religious about getting used to the DA/SA trigger pull when I'm shooting at the range.

My typical regimen is to load the P220 with 8 +1. That gives me three series of three shots. To keep track of my accuracy I use three 8 1/2 x 11 targets that I print out and tape them in a 'V' pattern of top left, center low, top right over my target (you could probably just as easily use paper plates). I generally take my targets out to 30 feet and fire three series of three shots, decocking after each series and going to low ready. To make it more realistic I focus on speed with my first shot (DA) and accuracy with my next two. I too have to make a minor adjustment in my shooting hand position between DA and SA, but it doesn't really affect me too much. I'm in the process of replacing my P220 stock trigger with the short trigger which should alleviate that problem.

Because my P220 is still relatively new to me I'm still in the process of building muscle memory for the DA/SA trigger pull, but I can say I feel very comfortable after just a few weeks of practicing with my ability to control my shots through this transition. I think it helps that I do have a DA pistol that I occassionally carry as well and have learned to shoot DA pretty accurately. It takes a bit more concentration to hold the sight picture steady during the long pull, but I do a LOT of dry firing as well.

[armedandsafe]

I dislike the DA/SA/decock drill. When under stress, the brain will run about screaming and whimpering, while the muscles just go on and do as they are trained. I prefer breaking the training into several drills. I'll load a few mags with 2 and some others with more. Then I get the reload practice and the DA/SA intermixed. I have a tip-over target with a fairly heavy spring, so it (usually) takes two quick hits to tip it over. This works well for the doubletap practice and gives me a good signal to stop shooting and safe the weapon. YMMV

Pops

[Archie]

Originally Posted by garrettwc

Can anyone recommend some good drills for mastering the DA trigger and the DA/SA transition?

Truthfully, I’ve never gotten good at it, let alone mastered it. I’ve been shooting 1911s and DA revolvers all my life; so it’s possible I just don’t see the need for the technique AND I’m an old dog.

Originally Posted by Talon66

The guy that sold Glock 22's to our local police service told me that when he was giving his sales pitch, that was one point that he impressed upon the brass. They bought it.

There is a hidden – and false – assumption in this process. The assumption is a cocked and locked pistol is more dangerous than a ‘hammer down’ pistol.

Originally Posted by The British Soldier

It is most applicable for the first double tap during an engagement, as you have drawn the pistol and are engaging the first 'target'. Thereafter, of course, you have the remainder of the magazine on SA only.

This training regimen and theory somewhat ignores the fact the first shot fired is the most important. A handgun is used in self-defense under circumstances of limited foreknowledge. One uses a handgun when other options are not viable for some reason, usually of circumstance – limited mobility, waiting in the chow line, other duties precluding use of a rifle. Secondly, it ignores the possibility of movement after the first shot; is one to move with a cocked and unlocked pistol? Doing the ‘safe thing’ and de-cocking mandates another first DA shot, doesn’t it? I always get a laugh out of those who feel ‘cocked and locked in a holster’ is unsafe, but ‘cocked, unlocked and running’ is acceptable.

Originally Posted by The British Soldier

I have never really got along with DAO triggers.

I can shoot a DA revolver (S&W, that is) with great rapidity and accuracy. I have one (S&W) DAO autopistol. While I can shoot it fairly well, rapid shots are – well – slow. It just does not handle as fast as a decent revolver.

Originally Posted by The British Soldier

I feel for those NYPD fellas who have to pull those triggers - they must work out to shoot!

That is the configuration I am mandated to carry. It really isn’t ‘bad’, but it could be much better.

Originally Posted by threegun

The change from one shot to the next stinks. While I hated the da pull of my beretta, I don't hate da. Give me a good smith and wesson revolver and I'm in da heaven.

This is the crux of the problem; dealing with two distinct trigger pulls in rapid order. And I agree, a S&W revolver is delightful in DA mode.

Originally Posted by j1132s

I love the DA/SA trigger; I think it's the best carry/combat trigger.

Why do you think DA/SA is superior to SA, Condition One? You’re not the only one who likes the multiple personality trigger; but why do you like it?

When I was permitted, I carried an H&K USP40. I have the variant one; DA/SA and manual safety override in the cocked position. My self-training was to carry hammer down to satisfy the management. In reality I would use the DA function for close shots under extreme stimulation. For all other shots, I would thumb cock the pistol, engage the safety and proceed as a SA only pistol. Obviously, for subsequent to primary shots, the gun would be in SA mode and the safety was available for movement or handcuffing or whatever.

[Rickstir]

I carry either a Beretta 92FS or a Taurus .357 CIA revolver. I carry the 92 with one in the pipe, hammer down, no safety. I practice this way. No memory transition depending on which weapon I have.

My practice drills are to draw, acquire target, 2 COM 1 head, move, repeat. Doesn't matter which weapon, muscle memory is the same. I practice at 21 feet in self-defense senarios. Cars, walls, etc. I just started loading a snap cap in the mag of the 92 to simulate a FTF/mag jam. My first rep wasn't all that swift on the reload. But I will try to concentrate on this some more.

[Raytracer]

I've been carrying - and shooting only 1911s for several years now. When my main carry pistol had to go in for work, I started carrying my old Ruger P85 (If I miss, I can club them with it). I've never been able to shoot it that well, and after going SAO, I've never tried again.

After a few dozen rounds SA to get used to the feel if the giant grip again, I was appalled at how poorly and inconsistently I was shooting. In frustration I started shooting DA/SA. The DA pull is so hard there's nothing for it but a good solid jerk. I was expecting the miss/hit/hit... syndrome. I was amazed to discover that I could consistently keep DA shots inside a 3" group at 7 yds! Much better than my SA trigger control on that gun.

I'm picking up another 1911 today so I can go back to what I'm used to, but it was all very interesting.

Joe

[Dave R]

My personal experience with DA/SA reinforces the "miss, hit hit" slogan. In fact, with me, its more like "miss, miss, hit.".

That stiff DA pull tends to make my first shot fly. But then the lighter 2nd shot tends to be off, too, because I'm not fully aligned when the lighter trigger breaks. 3rd shot I get it right.

I fully believe that folks who practice that a lot can get good at it. I have practiced it some, and I can see improvement. But right now, both my carry guns are DAO and I really like the consistency. I get consistent results when I shoot, so what's not to like?

Jeff Cooper calls DA/SA pistols "crunchentickers". Crunch for the first DA shot, and ticks for the rest. He likes 1911's better....

I must admit the fine single-action pull of a good 1911 is about as good as pitsol triggers get. But personally, I like a good DAO trigger better than the inconsisteny of a "crunchenticker."

[Gazpacho]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned shot-cocking yet. [Flame Suit=ON]

I don't practice this myself (mainly because I have not DA/SA semi-autos on my CCW) but there is the controvertial method of "throwing" your first (DA) shot at your target as fast as possible, getting you into highly controlled SA shooting faster. For those who don't spend enough time to master that DA shot, or simply can't, shot-cocking can be a way to get your gun from Condition 2 to Condition 1 in a hurry.

[threegun]

I expierienced first hand what happens with first and second shot when in DA/SA mode, while under some pretty intense stress during a competition many years ago. Despite having trained religiously to become proficient with DA/SA I still had problems in crunch time. Well years ago, I was in a circle of guys at the range and one of the guys says that under higher pressure situations the brain will automatically give your trigger finger the same pressure to fire the second shot that was required for the first. I didn't ask if he was a brain doctor but he was a hellavu shot. One of the few that I couldn't beat with my amount of training. One of those guys on the next level so to speak.

David Armstrong, Having researched over 10,000 shootings could your data provide a clue as to whether DA/SA hit ratio's are better or worst than DAO/SAO hit ratio's?






I worried about this DA/SA thing for a long time before finally saying the heck with it and trying the Glock line of pistols. The Glock has been my defensive handgun since. So I must say thanks to the DA/SA problem for allowing me to give the Glock a chance.

[OBIWAN]

I am firmly on record as believing the DA/SA trigger to be possibly the best answer ever to a non-existent problem

But that is simply my own opinion arrived at after owning a lot of DA autos

If it works for you then great...real happy for you

You are probably smarter and/or more talented than I

What I really hate seeing is all the people that

1. Never practice the DA pull or transistion

2. People who "prep the trigger" on the DA pull

Unfortunately there are far too many that choose the DA auto over some perceived increase in "safety" and then simply "work around" that safety

[threegun]

If I ever, for some ungodly reason, abandon my Glock's, my next choice would be the 1911. I would rather deal with having to snicker the safety off the cocked and locked pistol than worry about the DA/SA problem. You gotta hit to win.

[garrettwc]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned shot-cocking yet.

Not even a consideration. You are legally and morally responsible for every shot that goes down range. "Throwing" one goes against even the most basic rules of gun safety.

This thread has drifted so far off topic that I'm beginning to think it has surpassed it's useful life.

The question was what drills do you use to help learn trigger control of the DA/SA?

If you want to debate whether DA/SA is good or bad, please start another thread. Thanks.

[Dave R]

The question was what drills do you use to help learn trigger control of the DA/SA?

Thanks for getting us back on topic. Back when a PPK was my primary gun, My practice drill at the range was real simple.

1. De-cock the hammer.
2. Shoot 2 (or 3). The first one was the crunchy PPK DA shot. The 2nd (and third) were the delightful SA pull.

That's where I got my "miss, miss, hit" slogan! After some practice, I got better. But I'm still better with my DAO, now. I'm sure I would be even better with a 1911 or a Hi-Power with the mag safety removed.