Forward Assist on M-16/AR-15

Pampers · July 20, 2001, 11:22 AM

When was the forward assist added to the M-16/AR-15?

Yr. Obt. Svnt.

BigG · July 20, 2001, 12:30 PM

That was when it changed from M16 to M16A1.

SDC · July 20, 2001, 12:41 PM

1964 or 1965, if I remember correctly; the story is in Ezell's "The Black Rifle", and the Army wanted a way to FORCE a round into the chamber, if necessary.

BigG · July 20, 2001, 12:44 PM

Too bad it don't work. More like a way to jam your rifle fo sho.

James K · July 20, 2001, 10:23 PM

I agree with Big G. Unfortunately, it did work, and did just what Big G says. I always called it the "jam maker". It gets a dirty or bent round in the chamber, then it won't come out and the rim tears off. Then you either have a minor problem (on the range) or a major problem (in combat).

That sort of nonsense is why I never liked the AR-15/M16 and feel that the AR-18/180 is much better.

Jim

johnwill · July 21, 2001, 08:52 AM

I would think that a useful use of the forward assist would be to silently chamber a round if the enemy were close. That being the case, you wouldn't want to pull back the charging handle and let 'er fly, too noisy.

BigG · July 21, 2001, 05:23 PM

OK, Johnwill, good theory but as a gun man I expect you to know more that a dumbass bureaucrat who the excuse you gave was made for.

My question to you is: Why would you need to chamber a round in the presence of the enemy in the first place? All Guns Are Always Loaded. Sheesh

Harley Nolden · July 22, 2001, 05:18 AM

When the M16 was first issued to the field, it was noted that due to the stacking priciples in the gun it was hard to keep clean, In addition the ammunition at the time was not the best and guns were jamming on the battle field. The gun would sometimes not fully seat the round. The ammunition was changed and the forward assist was introduced to fix the problem.

I have read some where, and seen at the Viet Nam mobile Wall, (message at the wall, place by a former Marine) where a squad of Marines was wiped out because they had the initial issue M16's and could not get them to function. Unfortunately I don't remember what battle this was covered under.

HJN

Quantrill · July 22, 2001, 07:32 AM

Folks,
Not being an AR-15 person but having one, this seems to be an appropriate place to inquire about this rifle. It is marked "Colt AR15-A2", the barrel is marked "5.56NATO 1/7". It does NOT have a fowrd assist. It came with a 3X Colt scope. I have always wondered about this as I thought that the A1 were the changeover point. Any info would be appreciated. Quantrill

Harley Nolden · July 22, 2001, 08:29 AM

Quantrill:
According to my records and your description the rifle you have is the Colt AR15 Sporter (model #6000) This model does not have the forward assist, Was introduced in 1964 and discontinued in 1985.

Does yours have a bayonet Lug?
16" or 2-" bbl?

HJN

BigG · July 22, 2001, 09:45 AM

I believe most of the Colt SP1 rifles had an M16 upper, i.e., no forward assist, even though they were made in the M16A1 era. The Sporter was the name they started calling it when AR15 became "bad news." Then they took the AR15 marking off it all together.

James K · July 22, 2001, 10:42 AM

The early M16s had many problems, including use of the wrong powder. Sometimes it is said that old powder was used when the rifle was designed for new powder, but the reverse was the case. The rifle was designed and tested with IMR type powder, and then the ammo was loaded with improperly prepared ball powder. This caused a carbonate build up in the gas tube.

The other major problem was that the maker "sold" the rifle as maintenance free. The result was that insufficient cleaning material was issued and GIs were told they didn't have to clean the rifles. They didn't. Results predictable.

The forward assist did not help either problem.

I have never like the AR-15/M16 design, but it now seems to be a pretty good rifle and very reliable.

Jim

Quantrill · July 22, 2001, 12:46 PM

Gentlemen,
Further examination of the rifle shows a serial number of 301XXX and the designation of "Sporter-II". It has a round handguard with ribs on it, not like the M16s I shot at Camp Perry Small Arms School with a triangular handguard. The barrel length is 18". Thanks for info so far. Quantrill

BigG · August 6, 2001, 02:25 PM

AR15.com can give you the date of manufacture of your rifle.

The Sporter II was a civilian AR15 manufactured by Colt. I remember they started marking the Colt AR15 "Sporter" when some states and the federal gomt started the uproar over "assault rifles." This was even prior to the weapons ban of 1994.

Obviously, the Sporter II is more recent in manufacture than the "Sporter" which is sometime after 1985 when the original Colt SP1 was discontinued. Usually the Colt civilian rifles are a mix of old and new features as compared to military standard.

For example, my SP1 made before 1985 has the M16A1 flash hider, the M16 upper receiver, sans forward assist, and the triangular handguards used on both M16 and M16A1, so it cannot be exactly compared to any official military model. The bolt is also notched for the forward assist, even though none is fitted.

The round handguards are a feature of the M16A2, although they will fit on any M16 model. The shorty AR15 with collapsable stock has always had the round handguards, however.

I believe the "A3" is not an official designation, but I may be wrong. It's been a long time since I researched AR15s.

July 20, 2001, 11:22 AM	#1
Pampers Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2000 Location: In the Lost State of Franklin Posts: 482	Forward Assist on M-16/AR-15 When was the forward assist added to the M-16/AR-15? Yr. Obt. Svnt. __________________ Your Most Humble & Obedient Servant Fred J. Drumheller NRA Life NRA Golden Eagle

July 20, 2001, 12:30 PM	#2
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	That was when it changed from M16 to M16A1. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 20, 2001, 12:44 PM	#4
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	Too bad it don't work. More like a way to jam your rifle fo sho. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 21, 2001, 05:23 PM	#7
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	OK, Johnwill, good theory but as a gun man I expect you to know more that a dumbass bureaucrat who the excuse you gave was made for. My question to you is: Why would you need to chamber a round in the presence of the enemy in the first place? All Guns Are Always Loaded. Sheesh __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 22, 2001, 07:32 AM	#9
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	AR15 Foward Assist Folks, Not being an AR-15 person but having one, this seems to be an appropriate place to inquire about this rifle. It is marked "Colt AR15-A2", the barrel is marked "5.56NATO 1/7". It does NOT have a fowrd assist. It came with a 3X Colt scope. I have always wondered about this as I thought that the A1 were the changeover point. Any info would be appreciated. Quantrill

July 20, 2001, 12:41 PM	#3
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	1964 or 1965, if I remember correctly; the story is in Ezell's "The Black Rifle", and the Army wanted a way to FORCE a round into the chamber, if necessary.

July 20, 2001, 10:23 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I agree with Big G. Unfortunately, it did work, and did just what Big G says. I always called it the "jam maker". It gets a dirty or bent round in the chamber, then it won't come out and the rim tears off. Then you either have a minor problem (on the range) or a major problem (in combat). That sort of nonsense is why I never liked the AR-15/M16 and feel that the AR-18/180 is much better. Jim

July 21, 2001, 08:52 AM	#6
johnwill Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2000 Location: PA Posts: 3,451	I would think that a useful use of the forward assist would be to silently chamber a round if the enemy were close. That being the case, you wouldn't want to pull back the charging handle and let 'er fly, too noisy.

July 22, 2001, 05:18 AM	#8
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	When the M16 was first issued to the field, it was noted that due to the stacking priciples in the gun it was hard to keep clean, In addition the ammunition at the time was not the best and guns were jamming on the battle field. The gun would sometimes not fully seat the round. The ammunition was changed and the forward assist was introduced to fix the problem. I have read some where, and seen at the Viet Nam mobile Wall, (message at the wall, place by a former Marine) where a squad of Marines was wiped out because they had the initial issue M16's and could not get them to function. Unfortunately I don't remember what battle this was covered under. HJN

July 22, 2001, 08:29 AM	#10
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Quantrill: According to my records and your description the rifle you have is the Colt AR15 Sporter (model #6000) This model does not have the forward assist, Was introduced in 1964 and discontinued in 1985. Does yours have a bayonet Lug? 16" or 2-" bbl? HJN

July 22, 2001, 09:45 AM	#11
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	I believe most of the Colt SP1 rifles had an M16 upper, i.e., no forward assist, even though they were made in the M16A1 era. The Sporter was the name they started calling it when AR15 became "bad news." Then they took the AR15 marking off it all together. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 22, 2001, 10:42 AM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The early M16s had many problems, including use of the wrong powder. Sometimes it is said that old powder was used when the rifle was designed for new powder, but the reverse was the case. The rifle was designed and tested with IMR type powder, and then the ammo was loaded with improperly prepared ball powder. This caused a carbonate build up in the gas tube. The other major problem was that the maker "sold" the rifle as maintenance free. The result was that insufficient cleaning material was issued and GIs were told they didn't have to clean the rifles. They didn't. Results predictable. The forward assist did not help either problem. I have never like the AR-15/M16 design, but it now seems to be a pretty good rifle and very reliable. Jim

July 22, 2001, 12:46 PM	#13
Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 1999 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 725	AR-15 Gentlemen, Further examination of the rifle shows a serial number of 301XXX and the designation of "Sporter-II". It has a round handguard with ribs on it, not like the M16s I shot at Camp Perry Small Arms School with a triangular handguard. The barrel length is 18". Thanks for info so far. Quantrill

August 6, 2001, 02:25 PM	#14
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	AR15.com can give you the date of manufacture of your rifle. The Sporter II was a civilian AR15 manufactured by Colt. I remember they started marking the Colt AR15 "Sporter" when some states and the federal gomt started the uproar over "assault rifles." This was even prior to the weapons ban of 1994. Obviously, the Sporter II is more recent in manufacture than the "Sporter" which is sometime after 1985 when the original Colt SP1 was discontinued. Usually the Colt civilian rifles are a mix of old and new features as compared to military standard. For example, my SP1 made before 1985 has the M16A1 flash hider, the M16 upper receiver, sans forward assist, and the triangular handguards used on both M16 and M16A1, so it cannot be exactly compared to any official military model. The bolt is also notched for the forward assist, even though none is fitted. The round handguards are a feature of the M16A2, although they will fit on any M16 model. The shorty AR15 with collapsable stock has always had the round handguards, however. I believe the "A3" is not an official designation, but I may be wrong. It's been a long time since I researched AR15s. __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

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