Range Report: S&W M19-6 (2 1/2" bbl) ....

Stephen A. Camp · October 11, 2002, 02:42 PM

Hello.

I've always had a "thing" about this particular version of S&W's "Combat Magnum." Foolishly, I let a couple of older ones get away in trades and currently have the 2 1/2" Model 19-6. While I do like the little thing and it has a very good DA pull, I do kind of miss the pinned bbl and recessed chambers. Oh, well, at least it came with a smooth trigger-face.

This one's not been shot much over the years I've owned it; it seemed that simply "having" it was enough. Today, I decided to try some "serious" work with it.

The Revolver: Other than sticking a set of Eagle Secret Service checkered stocks on it, the gun's stock.

With a proper holster, the gun can be easily carried and concealed, but have kind of a "business-like look," should it have to come out.

Ammunition Used: The following loads were used today at distances from 10 to 25 yards.

Two full-house .357 Magnum loadings were used:

Remington 125 gr SJHP
Federal 125 gr JHP (Both of these are advertised at 1450 ft/sec. I suspect they're doing around 1350 to 1375 ft/sec out of this gun.)

One mid-range .357 Magnum load was fired:

Remington 125 gr Golden Saber (About 1150 ft/sec)

One handload was tried. It's a moderate load that can be used quite a bit for practice, but feels like a "magnum" rather than a light thirty-eight.

158 gr CSWC
Starline Cases
Winchester SP Primer
7.0 gr. Unique
Est. Velocity: Around 1100 ft/sec

Since some folks prefer to carry a hot .38 Special load, I also tried the gun with Remington's +P .38 Spec 158 gr LSWCHP.

Shooting: Except for the double-action 10-yard "test," all shooting was done single-action, two-hand hold, standing.

The first thing I needed to do with this revolver was to determine where the POI would be for the various loads as there's quite a bit of latitude in both velocity and bullet weight. I fired 3 shots at this target from 15 yards. The pistol's sighted in for the Remington 125 gr SJHP and I wanted to see where to hold for the groupings to follow. While it kind of looks like "hen scratching," you can see the varying POIs for the same POA.

10 Yards: Now knowing the slight variations in POA, I fired single-action groups at 10 yards. Each group consists of a cylinderfull.

Note that the lightest-recoiling round of all made the largest group! Don't know if this particular revolver just doesn't "like" dead soft lead or if it's a combination of that plus the slight "jump" the shorter .38 makes in the .357 Magnum's cylinder chambers. I'm sure there's some human error in there, too.

15 Yards: Also 6-shot groups fired single-action, standing w/2-hand hold. Note that the .38 Special load at the lower right doesn't quite group as tight. Yup! I did let a couple of the other loads go when I shouldn't have, but I knew it at the time. ALL of the .38 shots felt "good."

Top left moving clockwise: Handloaded .357, R-P 125 gr SJHP, R-P .38 Special +P 158 gr LSWCHP, R-P 125 gr Golden Saber, with the middle group being Federal 125 gr JHP.

25 Yards: Twelve shots were fired at this distance in the same manner described previously. Six were Remington 125 gr SJHPs while the other six were the handload. You can tell which were the SWCs by the cleaner cut holes in the target and even if you can't, it becomes obvious that the human error is greater than the difference in the two loads' points of impact.

10 Yards, Double-Action: There's little doubt that this revolver's primary purpose is self-defense. For that reason I fired two 6-shot groups with it double-action @ 10 yards. The loads are again the Remington full-house 125 gr JHP and the handload. At this distance, one can see some differences in POI vs the same POA, but unless shooting at 1" dots, it makes little difference. Accurate shots can still be had allowing for use of the hotter factory JHP while practicing with the handload. At least that's the way I see it.

It was still kind of wet at the range from previous rains, so I fired a round or two for "scientific mud testing" for expanision! As stated in previous reports, this has little validity I'm sure, but I find it interesting and perhaps others do, too.

The expanded bullet/cartridge @ left is the Remington while the other's the Federal JHP.

Sorry, forgot the toothbrush to clean off the mud!

Observations: While I do like this little thing, one might ask if the K-frame snub in this caliber is an anachronism? After all, with the mid-range defensive .357 loads, ballistically we're in the 9mm +P "ball park," with some of them beating us in velocity from 3.5 to 4" bbl pistols. Many handguns, including some of the 9mms, are flatter, lighter, and easier to shoot well. For me, this revolver's too large for any hope of pocket carry and the adjustable sights go against that as well as they could truly snag coming out of a pocket. If carried as a belt gun, I do think the 4" version is just about as easy to conceal unless one insists on waist-length jackets and that extra 1 1/2" of bbl makes the gun MUCH easier to get good hits with. Yet, one could also carry the light, flat Commander in .45 ACP...
Hmmmmmmmmmmm? What's it good for, then?

Well, some folks just like 'em. "Right" or "wrong," I just plain like this thing. I'll bet there are some others out there, too. Whether it's ego or whatever, I just plain enjoy trying to kind of keep my "hand in" with various types of handguns.

While it would NOT be my first choice as a defensive arm, I'd much rather have it than many other handguns commonly toted for protection. The gun's versatile as are all revolvers in this caliber; one can shoot everything from mid-range .38 wadcutters to std velocity .38, to +P .38, to mid-range Magnum, to the real thing! Select the load that's right for you and set the sights. Nice.

Some folks just don't trust automatics. While I think a 4" gun has more to recommend it, this one MIGHT be the choice and it can be shot fairly accurately. It made me "work" and that might just be a benefit when shooting my other longer-bbl'd revolvers.

....and you can roast weenies in the muzzle flash if you're hungry!
Bahahahahahhahaha!

This one's on constant "house duty." I trust it and think it would do fine in the home defense scenario. I can lay my mitts on this one pretty quickly and think it would handle most felonious assault type situations.

The full-house magnums are the way to go in my opinion. Yes, they do have sharp recoil, but really are not all that bad. Mine stay's loaded with either the Federal 125 gr JHP or the Remington 125 gr SJHP. IF that's too much, go with the mid-range defensive loads, but I'd sure try and stay at least at that level. The step downward to the .38s is just a bit much, at least to me, in an all-steel, K-frame revolver.

Best.

MK11 · October 11, 2002, 03:29 PM

As always, nice review (nice pictures too). I agree, there's something about a mid-sized .357 snub that defies logic yet I love them. I'm crazy for the 2.5 inch S&W 686 +, and I'm still kicking myself for letting a 2-inch Model 19 and a 2-inch Ruger Speed Six get away in the past.

I also agree on the ammo. Recoil is not bad at all (although the blast can curl your lip) and .357 ammo is definitely more accurate (however .38s are certainly accurate enough).

Blackhawk · October 11, 2002, 03:39 PM

Another OUTSTANDING range report, Stephen. You should be getting paid for them and your outstanding photography.

But, I've gotta ask this. What happened to your left thumbnail? Were you trying to blacknail somebody...?

Stephen A. Camp · October 11, 2002, 03:55 PM

Hello, Blackhawk. Darn your spyin' little eye! I managed to assault and electric drill bit with my thumbnail a few weeks ago! Bahahahahhahahaha! Doesn't hurt anymore. Hahahhahaaha!

Paid? Man, I get paid everytime I post one of these reports. They seem to be enjoyed and hopefully helpful to other shooters. Anyway, I take that as a compliment and appreciate it greatly.

Other than doing some writing and picture-taking, it's not much "work" than just going to the range for a shooting session.

Best and thanks again.

PS: IF and WHEN the stock market gets going again
and I can get out of some of my long positions and get back into options trading to supplement my income, there'll be fewer "Range Reports." I'll still do 'em, but darn, gotta make some money to supplement my retirement! There'll just be more time between them.

ATTICUS · October 11, 2002, 04:24 PM

"Paid? Man, I get paid everytime I post one of these reports. They seem to be enjoyed and hopefully helpful to other shooters.."

I'll second that one. Thanks much!

629 shooter · October 11, 2002, 05:41 PM

Stephen - very nice write up! Good pics also! I had a 2 1/2" Model 66 that I ended up trading. Shot the 66 in an indoor pistol league one winter and did fairly well with it shooting bullseye style- a guy with a Model 52 beat me in the end. Reading your range report brought back memories of my old Model 66! I used Winchester Silvertips in mine for defensive ammo.

Chuck McDonald · October 11, 2002, 06:41 PM

Steve,

You may be surprised at the velocity you can get with a .357 from the 2.5" S&W revolvers.

I carry/shoot S&W M60/357; M640/357, M19 and M66 in 2.5"

The big surprise to me was shooting over a chrono... the loss of velocity is not very great.

Yell and I can bring my chrono out to NTSA and you can chrono some loads for yourself.

V/r

Chuck

Stephen A. Camp · October 11, 2002, 07:11 PM

Hello, Chuck. Thanks. I've got a chronograph, but have just been lazy lately!

Best.

maxwayne · October 11, 2002, 08:03 PM

Good to hear from you again. One of my favorites is a snub nickel 19 I bought if from a pawnshop in Miami. The owner caters to widows. Said a little old lady brought it in loaded in a Kroger sack after her husband died.

JoeHatley · October 11, 2002, 08:49 PM

Sherff Steve,

Another good report. We miss your markmenship over at PPA.

Joe

Stephen A. Camp · October 11, 2002, 09:05 PM

Hello and thanks to all for the positive comments.

Best.

Poohgyrr · October 12, 2002, 01:31 AM

Another great range report; thanks. Those grips look good.

GunsnRovers · October 12, 2002, 08:34 AM

Thanks Stephen. You're reports are always a great read (and nice pictures too). I love blued K frames. I wish I owned one, but my M28 is a very jealous mistress. She barely tolerates my M36.

I find it amazing how well you shoot even though you "don't have a clue" about accuracy....

Thanks again for the sharing.

Jeff

October 11, 2002, 02:42 PM	#1
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Range Report: S&W M19-6 (2 1/2" bbl) .... Hello. I've always had a "thing" about this particular version of S&W's "Combat Magnum." Foolishly, I let a couple of older ones get away in trades and currently have the 2 1/2" Model 19-6. While I do like the little thing and it has a very good DA pull, I do kind of miss the pinned bbl and recessed chambers. Oh, well, at least it came with a smooth trigger-face. This one's not been shot much over the years I've owned it; it seemed that simply "having" it was enough. Today, I decided to try some "serious" work with it. The Revolver: Other than sticking a set of Eagle Secret Service checkered stocks on it, the gun's stock. With a proper holster, the gun can be easily carried and concealed, but have kind of a "business-like look," should it have to come out. Ammunition Used: The following loads were used today at distances from 10 to 25 yards. Two full-house .357 Magnum loadings were used: Remington 125 gr SJHP Federal 125 gr JHP (Both of these are advertised at 1450 ft/sec. I suspect they're doing around 1350 to 1375 ft/sec out of this gun.) One mid-range .357 Magnum load was fired: Remington 125 gr Golden Saber (About 1150 ft/sec) One handload was tried. It's a moderate load that can be used quite a bit for practice, but feels like a "magnum" rather than a light thirty-eight. 158 gr CSWC Starline Cases Winchester SP Primer 7.0 gr. Unique Est. Velocity: Around 1100 ft/sec Since some folks prefer to carry a hot .38 Special load, I also tried the gun with Remington's +P .38 Spec 158 gr LSWCHP. Shooting: Except for the double-action 10-yard "test," all shooting was done single-action, two-hand hold, standing. The first thing I needed to do with this revolver was to determine where the POI would be for the various loads as there's quite a bit of latitude in both velocity and bullet weight. I fired 3 shots at this target from 15 yards. The pistol's sighted in for the Remington 125 gr SJHP and I wanted to see where to hold for the groupings to follow. While it kind of looks like "hen scratching," you can see the varying POIs for the same POA. 10 Yards: Now knowing the slight variations in POA, I fired single-action groups at 10 yards. Each group consists of a cylinderfull. Note that the lightest-recoiling round of all made the largest group! Don't know if this particular revolver just doesn't "like" dead soft lead or if it's a combination of that plus the slight "jump" the shorter .38 makes in the .357 Magnum's cylinder chambers. I'm sure there's some human error in there, too. 15 Yards: Also 6-shot groups fired single-action, standing w/2-hand hold. Note that the .38 Special load at the lower right doesn't quite group as tight. Yup! I did let a couple of the other loads go when I shouldn't have, but I knew it at the time. ALL of the .38 shots felt "good." Top left moving clockwise: Handloaded .357, R-P 125 gr SJHP, R-P .38 Special +P 158 gr LSWCHP, R-P 125 gr Golden Saber, with the middle group being Federal 125 gr JHP. 25 Yards: Twelve shots were fired at this distance in the same manner described previously. Six were Remington 125 gr SJHPs while the other six were the handload. You can tell which were the SWCs by the cleaner cut holes in the target and even if you can't, it becomes obvious that the human error is greater than the difference in the two loads' points of impact. 10 Yards, Double-Action: There's little doubt that this revolver's primary purpose is self-defense. For that reason I fired two 6-shot groups with it double-action @ 10 yards. The loads are again the Remington full-house 125 gr JHP and the handload. At this distance, one can see some differences in POI vs the same POA, but unless shooting at 1" dots, it makes little difference. Accurate shots can still be had allowing for use of the hotter factory JHP while practicing with the handload. At least that's the way I see it. It was still kind of wet at the range from previous rains, so I fired a round or two for "scientific mud testing" for expanision! As stated in previous reports, this has little validity I'm sure, but I find it interesting and perhaps others do, too. The expanded bullet/cartridge @ left is the Remington while the other's the Federal JHP. Sorry, forgot the toothbrush to clean off the mud! Observations: While I do like this little thing, one might ask if the K-frame snub in this caliber is an anachronism? After all, with the mid-range defensive .357 loads, ballistically we're in the 9mm +P "ball park," with some of them beating us in velocity from 3.5 to 4" bbl pistols. Many handguns, including some of the 9mms, are flatter, lighter, and easier to shoot well. For me, this revolver's too large for any hope of pocket carry and the adjustable sights go against that as well as they could truly snag coming out of a pocket. If carried as a belt gun, I do think the 4" version is just about as easy to conceal unless one insists on waist-length jackets and that extra 1 1/2" of bbl makes the gun MUCH easier to get good hits with. Yet, one could also carry the light, flat Commander in .45 ACP... Hmmmmmmmmmmm? What's it good for, then? Well, some folks just like 'em. "Right" or "wrong," I just plain like this thing. I'll bet there are some others out there, too. Whether it's ego or whatever, I just plain enjoy trying to kind of keep my "hand in" with various types of handguns. While it would NOT be my first choice as a defensive arm, I'd much rather have it than many other handguns commonly toted for protection. The gun's versatile as are all revolvers in this caliber; one can shoot everything from mid-range .38 wadcutters to std velocity .38, to +P .38, to mid-range Magnum, to the real thing! Select the load that's right for you and set the sights. Nice. Some folks just don't trust automatics. While I think a 4" gun has more to recommend it, this one MIGHT be the choice and it can be shot fairly accurately. It made me "work" and that might just be a benefit when shooting my other longer-bbl'd revolvers. ....and you can roast weenies in the muzzle flash if you're hungry! Bahahahahahhahaha! This one's on constant "house duty." I trust it and think it would do fine in the home defense scenario. I can lay my mitts on this one pretty quickly and think it would handle most felonious assault type situations. The full-house magnums are the way to go in my opinion. Yes, they do have sharp recoil, but really are not all that bad. Mine stay's loaded with either the Federal 125 gr JHP or the Remington 125 gr SJHP. IF that's too much, go with the mid-range defensive loads, but I'd sure try and stay at least at that level. The step downward to the .38s is just a bit much, at least to me, in an all-steel, K-frame revolver. Best.

October 11, 2002, 04:24 PM	#5
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	"Paid? Man, I get paid everytime I post one of these reports. They seem to be enjoyed and hopefully helpful to other shooters.." I'll second that one. Thanks much! __________________ Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

October 11, 2002, 05:41 PM	#6
629 shooter Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2002 Location: IN , USA Posts: 967	Stephen - very nice write up! Good pics also! I had a 2 1/2" Model 66 that I ended up trading. Shot the 66 in an indoor pistol league one winter and did fairly well with it shooting bullseye style- a guy with a Model 52 beat me in the end. Reading your range report brought back memories of my old Model 66! I used Winchester Silvertips in mine for defensive ammo. __________________ "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."

October 11, 2002, 06:41 PM	#7
Chuck McDonald Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2002 Location: Tejas Posts: 179	.357 Snub Velocity Steve, You may be surprised at the velocity you can get with a .357 from the 2.5" S&W revolvers. I carry/shoot S&W M60/357; M640/357, M19 and M66 in 2.5" The big surprise to me was shooting over a chrono... the loss of velocity is not very great. Yell and I can bring my chrono out to NTSA and you can chrono some loads for yourself. V/r Chuck __________________ Fear God and Dreadnought

October 11, 2002, 08:49 PM	#10
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	Sherff Steve, Another good report. We miss your markmenship over at PPA. Joe __________________ Go NRA

October 11, 2002, 03:29 PM	#2
MK11 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2001 Posts: 577	As always, nice review (nice pictures too). I agree, there's something about a mid-sized .357 snub that defies logic yet I love them. I'm crazy for the 2.5 inch S&W 686 +, and I'm still kicking myself for letting a 2-inch Model 19 and a 2-inch Ruger Speed Six get away in the past. I also agree on the ammo. Recoil is not bad at all (although the blast can curl your lip) and .357 ammo is definitely more accurate (however .38s are certainly accurate enough).

October 11, 2002, 03:39 PM	#3
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Another OUTSTANDING range report, Stephen. You should be getting paid for them and your outstanding photography. But, I've gotta ask this. What happened to your left thumbnail? Were you trying to blacknail somebody...?

October 11, 2002, 03:55 PM	#4
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello, Blackhawk. Darn your spyin' little eye! I managed to assault and electric drill bit with my thumbnail a few weeks ago! Bahahahahhahahaha! Doesn't hurt anymore. Hahahhahaaha! Paid? Man, I get paid everytime I post one of these reports. They seem to be enjoyed and hopefully helpful to other shooters. Anyway, I take that as a compliment and appreciate it greatly. Other than doing some writing and picture-taking, it's not much "work" than just going to the range for a shooting session. Best and thanks again. PS: IF and WHEN the stock market gets going again and I can get out of some of my long positions and get back into options trading to supplement my income, there'll be fewer "Range Reports." I'll still do 'em, but darn, gotta make some money to supplement my retirement! There'll just be more time between them.

October 11, 2002, 07:11 PM	#8
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello, Chuck. Thanks. I've got a chronograph, but have just been lazy lately! Best.

October 11, 2002, 08:03 PM	#9
maxwayne Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 402	Good to hear from you again. One of my favorites is a snub nickel 19 I bought if from a pawnshop in Miami. The owner caters to widows. Said a little old lady brought it in loaded in a Kroger sack after her husband died.

October 11, 2002, 09:05 PM	#11
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello and thanks to all for the positive comments. Best.

October 12, 2002, 01:31 AM	#12
Poohgyrr Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2002 Location: Northern CA Posts: 158	Another great range report; thanks. Those grips look good. __________________ John Northern CA "Life brings sorrows and joys alike. It is what a man does with them - not what they do to him - that is the true test of his mettle." T. Roosevelt

October 12, 2002, 08:34 AM	#13
GunsnRovers Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 781	thanks Thanks Stephen. You're reports are always a great read (and nice pictures too). I love blued K frames. I wish I owned one, but my M28 is a very jealous mistress. She barely tolerates my M36. I find it amazing how well you shoot even though you "don't have a clue" about accuracy.... Thanks again for the sharing. Jeff __________________ Jeff The reason we're all here is that we're not all there.