I Think This Needs Said Again.... - Page 2

357 Python · January 28, 2016, 06:36 PM

I don't know if the guy is still around but in the late 1980s to early 1990s I worked a few times with a guy who did private security. He was a Captain and I was a Lieutenant. We were working a site and he told me that he never loaded his duty weapon. He said he retired from the Army and never carried a loaded pistol. He said there was always time to load it if it were needed. After that shift I informed my Branch Manager (Major) of what was said and that I would no longer work with this fool in the field. He was not with the company long after that. Things can happen faster than most people can imagine. You don't have time to get ready. All you have time for is to react. The time to get ready is before you leave home.

**44 AMP** · February 1, 2016, 02:45 AM

I understand what I call the "European" or "military" mindset about carrying a handgun. I don't agree, but I understand.

Soldiers have time to prepare before going into battle. Guards, do NOT.

The luggage cases called military holsters (WWII era in particular) are typical. Full flap, snap, button or in some cases buckle closures, these are not in any way fast to use in an emergency. The US flap holster is better than many but its still a flap holster.

Likewise, an awkward safety is not as major an issue, in combat as it is for a defensive pistol. Some military pistol designers apparently felt that the safety would/should be operated with the non trigger hand, or did not feel the safety needed to be operated with the hand in a firing grip at the same time....

Things have gotten better, in general, but old designs and attitudes still exist.

If your Captain were leading troops in battle (and not expect actual combat himself) I suppose not loading his pistol wouldn't be a huge risk.

On the other hand, if he met a "sapper in the wire" on his way to the latrine one night, he might really wish he had loaded his pistol beforehand....

Security guards, (including soldiers on guard duty) are there so they CAN meet the unexpected attack. Not having a fully loaded (and chambered) weapon at hand in that situation is simply idiocy.

Civilian self defense has much more in common with guard duty than it does with infantry combat. Conclusions about what is the proper state of readiness for your weapon should be obvious.

45_auto · February 1, 2016, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Are there people who still carry empty chamber?

I know it's hard to believe, but there are lots of people out there who don't even carry a gun!

SailingOnBy · February 4, 2016, 02:53 AM

Sorry... "guilty"(?) of this myself. Still pretty new to concealed carrying, and my holster is still pretty tight. Think I need to work into some type of comfort zone with this.

Overkill777 · February 10, 2016, 10:44 PM

Carrying a concealed firearm without a round chambered is like getting your car and pulling your seat belt across your lap but not buckling it. Then saying "if I'm about to get in an accident I'll just reach down real quick and buckle it".

Branko · February 12, 2016, 03:43 AM

I doubt your gun is beeping all the time unless a round is in the chamber, so not the best of comparisons

The irritating beeping is half of the reason I buckle my seatbelt, second part being, if the police spot me without a seatbelt on I'll have to pay a fine and I don't really feel like giving them more of my money.

Theohazard · February 12, 2016, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Branko

The irritating beeping is half of the reason I buckle my seatbelt, second part being, if the police spot me without a seatbelt on I'll have to pay a fine and I don't really feel like giving them more of my money.

Buckling your seat belt is the simplest and most effective thing you can do to greatly decrease your chance of injury or death in the event of a car accident. If the beeping and the threat of a fine are the only things keeping you from riding without a seat belt, then that's the most ignorant thing I've read here in a while...

Brit · February 12, 2016, 05:53 AM

First the seat belt! A visitor from Ohio, turned into me, in my paid for 2008 Jeep. Cutting across the two lane divided Avenue I was driving on, Boxing Day 2015. Basically a head on impact.

My seat belt worked as advertised, both air bags activated, my Jeep Cherokee Laredo was totaled, I was still injured.

No seat belt I would most likely have died.

The chambered round! "But, the Israelis carry like that." not so Sir, since they went to the Glock pistols, El Al Airlines, and Consulates/Embassy Guards. Carry full magazine, one in the chamber.

At last sight, they still were using black tip hard ball 9mm rounds, sub gun variety. Came in little 32 round cardboard boxes.

gyvel · February 12, 2016, 07:14 AM

Quote:

The luggage cases called military holsters (WWII era in particular) are typical. Full flap, snap, button or in some cases buckle closures, these are not in any way fast to use in an emergency. The US flap holster is better than many but its still a flap holster.

That kinda depends on the particular holster. It takes about the same amount of time/effort to flip open a flap as it does to unsnap a strap (e.g. Uncle Mike's.). Now, if you're talking about something like an original Luger holster with the strap and buckle, that's different, but most of the smaller flap type military holsters are no more difficult to use than the typical strap snap holster. The reason I don't use that type of holster anymore is that my neck of the woods is starting to get a little "civilized," and walking around with a gun on your hip is kind of attracting attention to yourself. (In other words, people are moving in from other parts of the county where "we don't think that people should have guns." Sadly, there is no way to stop them or send them back to California or Massachusetts.)

What I see today is a trend towards completely open, unsecured type holsters that seem to favor the Dodge City quick draw mentality that's so prevalent in today's society. I tried something like that for a while with my FN/Browning 1910 EDC, but went back to just keeping it in my pants pocket, which, for me (as in me, myself and I) is much quicker, definitely more comfortable, and doesn't worry me at all about an AD since it incorporates the famous FN "Triple Securite" system.

Branko · February 12, 2016, 07:41 AM

Everyone weighs in his risks and takes his chances. Or, in some cases, the state does that for you.

I don't know why people are so obsessed with correcting other people's judgement regarding their personal safety. Most people go around unarmed. Carrying a gun with chamber empty is a whole lot better then not carrying one if you ever come to need one.

To say it's a club and useless just seems to come from the same kind of argument that anti-gun advocates like to use - that carrying guns is always useless because attackers have the initiative. It does slow response time, sure thing, but again, is that part of a second really likely to be the decisive factor?

pete2 · February 13, 2016, 12:18 PM

Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types. More training is needed than for those with safetys on them or revolvers. It's a fact, officers must be more careful when handling this type gun. Sorry if you disagree but it's proven fact.

Skans · February 13, 2016, 02:42 PM

If I'm carrying my Glock 17 in my car; or am using it for home protection - I leave the chamber empty. I'm just not comfortable with the Glock format, even though I like and respect the gun from a durability standpoint. This is why I seldom carry carry a Glock.

camsdaddy · March 22, 2016, 04:26 PM

I have a friend who carries a 380 bodyguard without a round in the chamber in an uncle mikes IWB holster in the small of his back. I have tried to explain the reasons small of the back as well as carrying with an empty chamber may be bad. I asked him how many times he had tried drawing and chambering a round and he looked at me like I was speaking chinese. I then over heard him suggesting the 380 bodyguard to another coworker because he has never had a problem with his. I asked how many rounds he had fired from it he said lots like a box.

K_Mac · March 22, 2016, 04:59 PM

All of my training tells me that things happen very quickly in a life threatening encounter with a predator. My response has to be considered and my actions immediate. I carry in a soft holster with no retention IWB, with a round chambered. If this makes me a cowboy, I'm good with that.

James K · March 22, 2016, 06:08 PM

The real argument is not about loaded chambers but about carrying a single action auto pistol (or revolver) at all. If time is very short, it seems to me that even flipping off a safety or cocking a hammer will impose an unacceptable delay and increase the chances of making a fatal mistake.

Jim

shafter · March 22, 2016, 09:30 PM

There need not be any difference in speed. The safety is flicked off as the gun comes up.

I'd never carry chamber empty but a safety wouldn't stop me. If we were that concerned with speed open carry would be the way to go.

Jeff22 · March 23, 2016, 04:13 AM

"Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types."

I can think of half a dozen NDs that occurred locally with Glocks over the years, and in all but two incidents it happened when an inexperienced or distracted officer tried to disassemble the gun with a round still in the chamber . . . in the other cases somebody had their finger on the trigger when chambering a round. One shot the wall in the restroom and the other put a round through the window of the office (and then in panic lied about what happened, and got fired).

Some people just shouldn't have guns. And unfortunately, some of the people that shouldn't have guns are cops . . .

Targa · March 23, 2016, 06:43 AM

It really is as simple as keeping your head in the game when handling a firearm. No finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire, ensuring the firearm is clear before field stripping...etc. I had a Glock 26 that was my CCW for years, now a Kahr CM9, shot both alot and never had an accidental discharge. My duty weapon for the last 12 years has been a M&P 40 without a safety, before that a 4006, man I loved that gun..

, anyway, no accidental discharge. With that said, there has been four accidental discharges with the M&P that I am aware of, all of them due to a finger being where it shouldn't have been.
This is not a Glock event, complacency with any firearm could end up biting you in the rear and if you need to lean on a safety as a crutch to compensate for your complacency....

AL45 · March 23, 2016, 08:27 AM

I carry a double action .357 magnum revolver, so I always have one available at the pull of a trigger.

Nathan · March 24, 2016, 10:23 AM

Quote:

"Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types."

I can think of half a dozen NDs that occurred locally with Glocks over the years, and in all but two incidents it happened when an inexperienced or distracted officer tried to disassemble the gun with a round still in the chamber . . . in the other cases somebody had their finger on the trigger when chambering a round. One shot the wall in the restroom and the other put a round through the window of the office (and then in panic lied about what happened, and got fired).

Some people just shouldn't have guns. And unfortunately, some of the people that shouldn't have guns are cops . . .

Dude....we're not supposed to say that....didnt you hear Glock uses the safe action! Will somebody body get him a glass of koolaid....and don't water board him with it. He can learn!

I'll bet i could carry my 1911 condition 0 with the grip safety deactivated, but I don't!

Mannlicher · March 30, 2016, 05:02 PM

JamesK

Quote:

The real argument is not about loaded chambers but about carrying a single action auto pistol (or revolver) at all. If time is very short, it seems to me that even flipping off a safety or cocking a hammer will impose an unacceptable delay and increase the chances of making a fatal mistake.

I'll agree with that if you mean a SAA Colt or clone, but certainly not when you are talking about a 1911.

iraiam · March 30, 2016, 06:39 PM

I know a guy that carries a hammer-less revolver on an empty cylinder, he has to pull the trigger twice to fire the first round. When I asked him to elaborate, he said he "wanted to be sure" or some such language.

I told him that he needed be sure before he even pulls his weapon in the first place. Sensing I was about to get into a urinating tournament, I let his next response stand, I figure if he's that unsure, maybe he won't even continue to carry.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 30, 2016, 08:03 PM

The safety off on draw can be a problem when folks forget it under stress. I've seen it happen at matches - even to trained 1911 shooters. Stress bobbles your training.

The one time I was almost shot was by a guy screwing up putting his 1911 in his holster. Almost caught that one in my foot.

January 28, 2016, 06:36 PM	#26
357 Python Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2007 Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 941	I don't know if the guy is still around but in the late 1980s to early 1990s I worked a few times with a guy who did private security. He was a Captain and I was a Lieutenant. We were working a site and he told me that he never loaded his duty weapon. He said he retired from the Army and never carried a loaded pistol. He said there was always time to load it if it were needed. After that shift I informed my Branch Manager (Major) of what was said and that I would no longer work with this fool in the field. He was not with the company long after that. Things can happen faster than most people can imagine. You don't have time to get ready. All you have time for is to react. The time to get ready is before you leave home. Last edited by 357 Python; January 28, 2016 at 10:20 PM.

February 1, 2016, 02:45 AM	#27
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	I understand what I call the "European" or "military" mindset about carrying a handgun. I don't agree, but I understand. Soldiers have time to prepare before going into battle. Guards, do NOT. The luggage cases called military holsters (WWII era in particular) are typical. Full flap, snap, button or in some cases buckle closures, these are not in any way fast to use in an emergency. The US flap holster is better than many but its still a flap holster. Likewise, an awkward safety is not as major an issue, in combat as it is for a defensive pistol. Some military pistol designers apparently felt that the safety would/should be operated with the non trigger hand, or did not feel the safety needed to be operated with the hand in a firing grip at the same time.... Things have gotten better, in general, but old designs and attitudes still exist. If your Captain were leading troops in battle (and not expect actual combat himself) I suppose not loading his pistol wouldn't be a huge risk. On the other hand, if he met a "sapper in the wire" on his way to the latrine one night, he might really wish he had loaded his pistol beforehand.... Security guards, (including soldiers on guard duty) are there so they CAN meet the unexpected attack. Not having a fully loaded (and chambered) weapon at hand in that situation is simply idiocy. Civilian self defense has much more in common with guard duty than it does with infantry combat. Conclusions about what is the proper state of readiness for your weapon should be obvious. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 12, 2016, 07:41 AM	#35
Branko Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2015 Location: Croatia Posts: 188	Everyone weighs in his risks and takes his chances. Or, in some cases, the state does that for you. I don't know why people are so obsessed with correcting other people's judgement regarding their personal safety. Most people go around unarmed. Carrying a gun with chamber empty is a whole lot better then not carrying one if you ever come to need one. To say it's a club and useless just seems to come from the same kind of argument that anti-gun advocates like to use - that carrying guns is always useless because attackers have the initiative. It does slow response time, sure thing, but again, is that part of a second really likely to be the decisive factor? Last edited by Branko; February 12, 2016 at 10:58 AM.

March 22, 2016, 04:59 PM	#39
K_Mac Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 1,850	All of my training tells me that things happen very quickly in a life threatening encounter with a predator. My response has to be considered and my actions immediate. I carry in a soft holster with no retention IWB, with a round chambered. If this makes me a cowboy, I'm good with that. __________________ "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

March 23, 2016, 04:13 AM	#42
Jeff22 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2004 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 715	negligent discharges "Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types." I can think of half a dozen NDs that occurred locally with Glocks over the years, and in all but two incidents it happened when an inexperienced or distracted officer tried to disassemble the gun with a round still in the chamber . . . in the other cases somebody had their finger on the trigger when chambering a round. One shot the wall in the restroom and the other put a round through the window of the office (and then in panic lied about what happened, and got fired). Some people just shouldn't have guns. And unfortunately, some of the people that shouldn't have guns are cops . . . __________________ You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!

February 4, 2016, 02:53 AM	#29
SailingOnBy Member Join Date: January 30, 2016 Location: Western Washington Posts: 28	Sorry... "guilty"(?) of this myself. Still pretty new to concealed carrying, and my holster is still pretty tight. Think I need to work into some type of comfort zone with this.

February 10, 2016, 10:44 PM	#30
Overkill777 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2015 Posts: 267	Carrying a concealed firearm without a round chambered is like getting your car and pulling your seat belt across your lap but not buckling it. Then saying "if I'm about to get in an accident I'll just reach down real quick and buckle it".

February 12, 2016, 03:43 AM	#31
Branko Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2015 Location: Croatia Posts: 188	I doubt your gun is beeping all the time unless a round is in the chamber, so not the best of comparisons The irritating beeping is half of the reason I buckle my seatbelt, second part being, if the police spot me without a seatbelt on I'll have to pay a fine and I don't really feel like giving them more of my money.

February 12, 2016, 05:53 AM	#33
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	First the seat belt! A visitor from Ohio, turned into me, in my paid for 2008 Jeep. Cutting across the two lane divided Avenue I was driving on, Boxing Day 2015. Basically a head on impact. My seat belt worked as advertised, both air bags activated, my Jeep Cherokee Laredo was totaled, I was still injured. No seat belt I would most likely have died. The chambered round! "But, the Israelis carry like that." not so Sir, since they went to the Glock pistols, El Al Airlines, and Consulates/Embassy Guards. Carry full magazine, one in the chamber. At last sight, they still were using black tip hard ball 9mm rounds, sub gun variety. Came in little 32 round cardboard boxes.

February 13, 2016, 12:18 PM	#36
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	Glock type pistols seem to have more negligent discharges than other types. More training is needed than for those with safetys on them or revolvers. It's a fact, officers must be more careful when handling this type gun. Sorry if you disagree but it's proven fact.

February 13, 2016, 02:42 PM	#37
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	If I'm carrying my Glock 17 in my car; or am using it for home protection - I leave the chamber empty. I'm just not comfortable with the Glock format, even though I like and respect the gun from a durability standpoint. This is why I seldom carry carry a Glock.

March 22, 2016, 04:26 PM	#38
camsdaddy Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 397	I have a friend who carries a 380 bodyguard without a round in the chamber in an uncle mikes IWB holster in the small of his back. I have tried to explain the reasons small of the back as well as carrying with an empty chamber may be bad. I asked him how many times he had tried drawing and chambering a round and he looked at me like I was speaking chinese. I then over heard him suggesting the 380 bodyguard to another coworker because he has never had a problem with his. I asked how many rounds he had fired from it he said lots like a box.

March 22, 2016, 06:08 PM	#40
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The real argument is not about loaded chambers but about carrying a single action auto pistol (or revolver) at all. If time is very short, it seems to me that even flipping off a safety or cocking a hammer will impose an unacceptable delay and increase the chances of making a fatal mistake. Jim

March 22, 2016, 09:30 PM	#41
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	There need not be any difference in speed. The safety is flicked off as the gun comes up. I'd never carry chamber empty but a safety wouldn't stop me. If we were that concerned with speed open carry would be the way to go.

March 23, 2016, 06:43 AM	#43
Targa Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Posts: 2,084	It really is as simple as keeping your head in the game when handling a firearm. No finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire, ensuring the firearm is clear before field stripping...etc. I had a Glock 26 that was my CCW for years, now a Kahr CM9, shot both alot and never had an accidental discharge. My duty weapon for the last 12 years has been a M&P 40 without a safety, before that a 4006, man I loved that gun.., anyway, no accidental discharge. With that said, there has been four accidental discharges with the M&P that I am aware of, all of them due to a finger being where it shouldn't have been. This is not a Glock event, complacency with any firearm could end up biting you in the rear and if you need to lean on a safety as a crutch to compensate for your complacency.... Last edited by Targa; March 23, 2016 at 06:50 AM.

March 23, 2016, 08:27 AM	#44
AL45 Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2012 Posts: 761	I carry a double action .357 magnum revolver, so I always have one available at the pull of a trigger.

March 30, 2016, 06:39 PM	#47
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	I know a guy that carries a hammer-less revolver on an empty cylinder, he has to pull the trigger twice to fire the first round. When I asked him to elaborate, he said he "wanted to be sure" or some such language. I told him that he needed be sure before he even pulls his weapon in the first place. Sensing I was about to get into a urinating tournament, I let his next response stand, I figure if he's that unsure, maybe he won't even continue to carry. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

March 30, 2016, 08:03 PM	#48
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The safety off on draw can be a problem when folks forget it under stress. I've seen it happen at matches - even to trained 1911 shooters. Stress bobbles your training. The one time I was almost shot was by a guy screwing up putting his 1911 in his holster. Almost caught that one in my foot. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens