The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 6, 2022, 03:05 PM   #26
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 3,902
We need the death penalty for people like that guy, and not waiting 20 years to get it done. But…that won’t stop all of the whackos, but it would be a start.
603Country is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 03:23 PM   #27
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
He was not a perp, or a killer in 2019. He did make threats and the police checked them out and did not find anything that required legal action.
So you're saying the police didn't confiscate his knives in 2019, they stole them?
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 04:17 PM   #28
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,080
The shooter apparently cased a synagogue:

"The thought did cross my mind that maybe he is just casing the place," said Marty Blumenthal, who works security for the synagogue and said he now thinks that's why the suspect was there.

"Now I do, now that I know he has homicidal tendencies for sure."




https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime...8a88dd15fce8d0
thallub is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 04:21 PM   #29
Rob228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2010
Location: Hampstead NC
Posts: 1,406
Quote:
The shooter apparently cased a synagogue:

From another article, sounds like the guards were on top of their game when he showed up. Pretty good guess as to why he chose a softer target.

Quote:
The synagogue, which has armed guards, and where many of the worshippers are also armed, is along the parade route on Central Avenue - four blocks from where Crimo opened fire.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Passover.html
Rob228 is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 04:46 PM   #30
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 3,131
Not that this makes a difference to those here but the weapon used was a S&W M&P 15. The MSM will keeping pushing the AR narrative.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 05:13 PM   #31
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
Quote:
So you're saying the police didn't confiscate his knives in 2019, they stole them?
Nope. Not saying that the police stole them. But here's the unanswered questions, what became of the knives???

Police often, and sometimes are required to remove knives, guns, and other "dangerous" items from a household (no matter WHO in the house owns them) while they determine what the situation actually is.

OK, so the police took the knives, THEN what happened?? They decided he was not an immediate threat requiring legal action. Since he was not deemed a credible threat at the time, the police should have returned the property taken (in this case, knives). Did they??

Sometimes (and especially with small, and low $ value items) the police won't return them, automatically, you have to ASK. Did he ask for their return? Did he ask and get them back? Did he ask and was refused? Did he not bother to ask so the police just kept them???

Making a point about them confiscating knives, without telling the rest of the story isn't fair & balanced recounting of a situation.

Get stopped for a traffic issue while carrying? What usually happens, the cop "confiscates" your pistol ("for their own safety, for the duration of the stop) and then returns it when you are free to go.

If you only tell PART of the story, ("the cops took my pistol when I got stopped") and don't tell anyone that you got it back afterwards, you are intentionally creating a false impression.

I believe that meets the technical definition of a "lie".

It's done all the time, but that doesn't make it right, or honest.

My point here isn't to defend the killer, or anyone else's judgement involved in the situation, not the family, not the cops who essentially cleared him in 2019, or anyone else. My point is that whether its professional news people, or just regular folks, repeating only part of what happened distorts and can even prevent an accurate understanding of what happened.

SO without knowing the whole story, how valid can one's judgement about it, actually be??

this guy has confessed to killing innocent people, because he felt like it. If anyone deserves to be permanently removed from existence, I believe he should be.

The firearm used is reported to be a S&W MP-15. There has been no reporting on any gun control laws (not clear at this point if it was in violation of the local "assault weapon ban" or not, but since no one is yet saying it was, it's possible it wasn't) being broken.

What we appear to have is a legal gun, purchased legally and then later used to commit mass murder. I think the reason why it was used and how the killer could/should have been identified and stopped before becoming a killer are not very well firearms related topics. Do we really need to go farther on this, here, in this forum?
Feel free to have a different opinion.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 07:51 PM   #32
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,080
1. The perps father and/or mother called police twice:

a. In April after the perp threatened to off himself.

b. In September after the perp threatened to kill his family.

2. The police confiscated the knives which were later returned to the father.

3. The police had no case because the father and/or mother refused to press the issue.

4. In December the father endorsed the perps application for a FOID card.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hi...fe2cf69e1de25f
thallub is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 08:19 PM   #33
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,389
Ya know ... if my son had just threatened to kill me and my wife, and the police had just confiscated multiple knives from him, I don't think two months later I would sponsor the kid for a permission slip to buy GUNS!

Makes you wonder who's nuttier, the son or the father.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 09:53 PM   #34
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
A lot of people have a huge "blind spot" when it comes to close family, believing, or hoping for the best even when there is solid evidence it won't be so.

One of my wife's cousins almost lost her home and did some jail time because of her POS little brother, a career thief and small time dope dealer, who got her in trouble dealing dope from her house when she wasn't there.

I made it clear, years before that he was not welcome at my home or anywhere on my property, but he was "her little brother" and she would not refuse him her home. She paid for that, but even afterwards, would not turn him away.

She's gone now, and last I heard, is long term landlord (the state) did let him attend her funeral. As far as I'm concerned, he's not welcome at my home as long as he draws breath, and I won't let him be buried here, either.

I'm sure the father agreed to sponsor him believing he was now on a good path. Turned out he was as wrong as wrong gets, and he'll be paying for that mistake the rest of his life, and I'm not talking about mere money...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 6, 2022, 10:24 PM   #35
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
A lot of people have a huge "blind spot" when it comes to close family, believing, or hoping for the best even when there is solid evidence it won't be so.
Too true. It cost the Sandy Hook shooter's mother her life. (As well as 27 other people's lives.)
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 7, 2022, 08:52 AM   #36
seanc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 1998
Posts: 533
Looking at the IL red flag law, from a quick explainer article at a lawyer's website, it seems even if the kid was red-flagged, it wouldn't have been much of a deterrent even if the local police department was diligent enough to follow through.

Quote:
If the petition for the restraining order is granted, police can immediately present the order to the individual and remove all of their guns. Their license to carry and purchase firearms will also be suspended immediately. The restraining order will be in effect for at least two weeks. After those two weeks, the individual must petition to appeal for the order to be revoked. If the individual is still seen as a danger, the order will continue, and they must again wait to appeal. If the order is revoked, the individual’s firearms will be returned, and their license to carry and buy will be restored.
Some law enforcement does stay on top of these issues and you get to see the good and bad of aggressive anti-gun politicians there. The Crook County sheriff, Tom Dart, is quite aggressive in blocking FOID and CCW applications for any reason, even for long expunged cases. In IL, this is referred to as being "Darted".
seanc is offline  
Old July 7, 2022, 01:27 PM   #37
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
Some thoughts that came upon me as I pondered weak and weary of this entire mess,,,(first being that the tapping wasn't a raven, but a hungry cat...)

anyway, I got to wondering, if we aren't falling (have fallen) into the trap of creating a foolishly unrealistic and unachievable goal when it comes to stopping the violence before it happens.

A rather vocal segment of the country is operating on the "you knew, or should have known" premise, and blaming the violence on just about everything and everyone, except the person who actually did it.

HOW in hell are we, as a society, expected to be able to know, and somehow prevent these things, when the people doing them are so often able to prevent their parents and other people close to them from realizing what they are going to do?

And, in those cases where they actually tell us what they intend to do (or hint at it) BEFORE going on a murder spree, generally, no one believes they are serious. Why do you think that is??

My other point (this time) is about the tremendous increase in "mass shootings". An article I read today said that before 2000, there were about 3 mass shootings a year, and in the first six months of 2022, there were over 240.

I am not trying to argue that the huge increase isn't a real thing, what I am wondering about is how much of the increase is due to more shootings, and how much is due to the ONE factor not being talked about, which is how a mass shooting is classified.

For a long time, the standard was based on a certain number of people killed. The standard the press is using today is (and they will tell you, they aren't trying to hide it) 4 (four) people shot or killed, not including the killer. Take a look at that, specifically "shot or killed".

Think that change in the standard might inflate the numbers, compared to how we counted things in the past? I do.

Puts me in mind of what happened some years back, when the number of "obese" people in the country virtually doubled overnight. We didn't magically get fatter instantly, but the numbers did. Because the medical community and the insurance people who use the same tables, changed the boundary of what constituted "obese" and a huge number of people who had been classed as "overweight" were reclassified as "obese".

Result? we no longer had an "obesity problem" we had a "HUGE obesity problem".

TO be clear, I am not saying we do not have a huge increase in violence and shootings over the past, what I am saying is that I think a part of that statistical increase is because of the way we have changed our definitions from what we used in the past, and that no one seems to be mentioning that.

Seems that artificially inflating the numbers by the way we count them should be something considered. Is it the sole reason? hell no, but it is, I think, ONE of the reasons the numbers are so much higher than they were.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 7, 2022, 01:59 PM   #38
cdoc42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,353
Remember this line? " Lies, damned lies, and statistics " is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers,....."
cdoc42 is offline  
Old July 7, 2022, 07:36 PM   #39
L. Boscoe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2021
Posts: 179
All of us who had male children MAY have had one who is a problem-the solution would be to become involved, by any means necessary in the goings on in the child's day and who and what he does with his free time. If all of the fathers did that, we would not have such nonsense as a older teen wanting to do stupid stuff, never mind murder.
There, I've described the perfect parent-all who qualify step forward for the award.
I don't have an award.
L. Boscoe is offline  
Old July 7, 2022, 07:54 PM   #40
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 7,851
Weapon used (allegedly)

All I have is a youtube posting. It claims the weapon was a Kel-Tec Sub 2000.

I have no experience with them. It looks like a blowback pistol caliber carbine that is hinged to fold in half.

That does not help anything but it SHOULD be useful to counter the anti-AR-15 misinformation /propaganda.

https://youtu.be/G80JPDX8q_E

Another interesting thought. Laura Ingraham/ Fox news presented the idea studies are linking marijuana induced psychosis to the mass shootings.
Going clear back to Columbine , nearly all the shooters were long term marijuana users.
I know,correlation/causation. Maybe the all ate french fries,too.

And tobacco companies had research/science that smoking is harmless.

I'm skeptical of the pot advocates who knee jerk dismiss any suggestion that prolonged pot use COULD be harmful.

I have observed a few heavy pot users succumb to (what I would call) schizophrenia. It IS a thing.

Its easier to blame guns.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: I have since been told the S+W M+P 15 was supposedly found on the roof with 223 brass. The Kel-Tec was supposedly recovered from the car.

Last edited by HiBC; July 7, 2022 at 08:42 PM.
HiBC is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 01:42 AM   #41
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
Quote:
All I have is a youtube posting. It claims the weapon was a Kel-Tec Sub 2000.
You need to do some more digging. MSN had a picture of a Kel-Tec (with to me very odd yellow coloring) and ID'd it as one of the other guns the shooter had, taken from his home afterwards.

One report I read said the police seized 5 guns from his home, 2 rifles, 2 handguns and a shotgun. That report did not identify the guns further.

The gun he used, and left at the scene (he reportedly said it fell out of his bag as he was getting away..) has been ID'd as a S&W MP-15, their version of an AR 15.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 07:12 AM   #42
mehavey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,424
... and the yellow-painted-splashed Kel-Tec Sub 2000 was supposedly found in his car. . . . .
https://nypost.com/2022/07/07/pictur...second-attack/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark_T: “if you don’t read the newspaper, you’re uninformed. if you do, you’re misinformed.”
mehavey is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 09:00 AM   #43
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,591
Quote:
Nope. Not saying that the police stole them. But here's the unanswered questions, what became of the knives???
They were returned to the father that afternoon as he claimed they were actually his.
https://www.npr.org/2022/07/06/11099...bert-crimo-iii

Quote:
Additionally, Crimo's father claimed the knives were his, and that they were being stored in his son's closet "for safekeeping," police said. Highland Park police returned the knives to Crimo's father later that afternoon.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 12:34 PM   #44
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
The news about the knives being returned to the father came out the day after I posted asking what became of the knives.

The knives "belonging" to the father (actually, or him just claiming they were) changes nothing about my point. The police were investigating an unknown and unstable situation. Knives, guns, or anything else deemed a dangerous weapon would have been taken (to "secure them") no matter who they belonged to in the house.

The father claiming ownership allowed the police to return them to their "rightful owner" who was NOT the subject of the investigation. Had it been the son (who they were investigating) asked for their return, I do not believe he would have gotten them back, as promptly.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 01:34 PM   #45
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,389
Another bit of information that has come out regarding that incident three years ago is that the guy told the police that he was a depressed drug user. Being a user if illegal drugs is a disqualifier for firearms possession. In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 03:08 PM   #46
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
Quote:
In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.
That's certainly clear, NOW. But back then??? not so much, it would seem.

There is a general standard (often ignored) that when evaluating someone's actions, or lack of action, one should take into account what they knew at the time.

Along with this, one should also consider the various legal standards, and the fact that unless those are met, legal action is not to be taken. And, that taking legal actions without clearly meeting the established standards can be cause for legal action against those people who made the decision to take "unwarranted" legal action.

Our problem there is that A) the very human tendency to CYA, and B) the established legal standards are not always how things SHOULD be judged, but are the way things MUST be judged.

Numerous times we can see where a mass killer was evaluated by either police, or mental health professionals, BEFORE they became a mass killer, and the threat they posed was deemed insufficient to justify legal actions.

People lie. People hide things. and sometimes, people even change....
Our system is poorly set up to deal with people who are clever enough hide their true inner thoughts, and also predisposed to give people the benefit of the doubt, when there is no evidence that meets the legal setpoints for action.

Admitting to the cops that you're depressed and using illegal drugs during their investigation is not sworn testimony, its not a conviction. SO, generally speaking, its not legal proof of anything other than the fact that the guy said it.

In this situation, the 19yr old was not charged with anything, was not ordered into mental health treatment, so the legal trigger for denial of his rights was not tripped. In hindsight, yes, that was clearly a mistake, but in light of what they knew (and decided) at the time? Tough call, I think.

So, we have an incident involving threats of harm in 2019, the authorities decided it wasn't enough to take action. THEN, 3 months later, he applies for an FOID, and I'm sure everything about the 2019 incident was still in the system. AGAIN, not enough to invoke a denial. A few months short of TWO YEARS after that, he goes on a murder spree....

Aside from the scum that pulled the trigger WHO is responsible?? Should anyone else be???

Did he, maybe, clean up his act, stop the drugs, and was an ok guy, for a while, then backslid to his earlier behavior?
OR, did he never change, and just got better at hiding his real intentions??
I don't know, I don't know that anyone can know, other than him, and about that, so far, he ain't talking....

Is there any of us who, at some point in our lives has never said something we didn't actually mean?? No one I know of...
The system is made to allow for that, and relies on human judgement to determine if there is a credible threat. Sometimes mistakes are made. This case was a bad one.

But what is the alternative?? do we go to the extreme of locking up everyone who has ever yelled "kill the quarterback!" at a football game??? Is the kid who chews his poptart into the shape of a pistol a potential mass killer?

sure, those are ridiculous examples, but remember, that if we go too far one way, its very difficult to come back. IF it is even possible, at all.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 05:46 PM   #47
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,591
Quote:
Another bit of information that has come out regarding that incident three years ago is that the guy told the police that he was a depressed drug user. Being a user if illegal drugs is a disqualifier for firearms possession. In a perfect world, one might think that this admission should have popped up when the authorities were doing the background investigation for his FOID, but apparently it didn't. In reality, he should not have been issued an FOID and should not have been allowed to possess firearms.
Quote:
In this situation, the 19yr old was not charged with anything, was not ordered into mental health treatment, so the legal trigger for denial of his rights was not tripped. In hindsight, yes, that was clearly a mistake, but in light of what they knew (and decided) at the time? Tough call, I think.
Adding to what 44 Amp said in looking at the situation in the past from what happened now, we often see how there were "red flags" or "signs" that a person was in trouble, but how far do we carry that forward to hold against people in later life? The police do get called out repeatedly for some people and for others it is one or two and done before the folks get their lives together and become productive members of society.

If no legal action was taken against a person, do we want the report of some street cop to be the deciding factor on whether or not a person gets to exercise their rights? That would seem to be cutting out due process.

Of course, we (the pro gun community) keeps arguing that laws aren't going to stop criminals from doing what they do, right? So even if this guy's behavior did trigger a FOID denial, would that have stopped him from doing this type of thing?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 07:37 PM   #48
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
Of course, we (the pro gun community) keeps arguing that laws aren't going to stop criminals from doing what they do, right? So even if this guy's behavior did trigger a FOID denial, would that have stopped him from doing this type of thing?
There's no way of knowing. Just like there's no way of knowing if the Air Force had reported the Sutherland Springs shooter's court martial conviction to NICS if that would have prevented that massacre. It might ... or it might not.

The bottom line for me is that the gun grabbers keep asking for more laws and more intrusions into our personal, private lives and data, all the while NOT utilizing the laws and data they already have access to.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old July 8, 2022, 11:03 PM   #49
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 7,851
We can think of a law as a tool.

The persons using the gun laws/tools are all government workers. And the "toolmakers" who write law are government.

First thing to decide, are they good,effective laws or not? If the problem is ineffective law,repeal it BEFORE writing a new one.

If the problem is with ineffective government personnel or bureaucratic process, fix that BEFORE you write a new law. Example :If NICS is passing firearms purchase for a guy dishonorably discharged from the Air Force for domestic violence ,he buys a gun and shoots up a church in Texas,killing several people... Is the problem we don't have enough laws?

The finest tools don't work if you are a careless or incompetent worker. I've machined a lot of military aircraft and marine parts. Every day I thought of lives and big money depending on my work. I had to CARE every day.

Any part non conformance WOULD be traced to me and I'd be held accountable.

Instead of suing gunmakers,why are we not suing or prosecuting the government employees who fail us?

If laws and bureaucracy cannot be effective against mental illness, OK.
Then quit calling for more gun laws.
HiBC is offline  
Old July 9, 2022, 11:47 AM   #50
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 25,535
Quote:
Instead of suing gunmakers,why are we not suing or prosecuting the government employees who fail us?
Prosecuting, I understand, and approve of, where there is criminal mis/malfeasance.

Sueing?? What good does that do?? First, I don't agree with suing the makers of anything for the criminal misuse of their product. Period.

Second, individual govt employees are generally protected against that, outside of certain specific and uncommon situations, by law.

We live in a society that has gone "lawsuit happy" and seems to think a lawsuit is the correct response to any and everything in this world that is wrong, done badly, or is just something that they don't like. Great way for lawyers to make a living, but not so good for the rest of us, I think.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.28925 seconds with 10 queries