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Old May 9, 2022, 11:59 AM   #26
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How weak are the springs in a 1911 mag? I've never seen a mag with springs so weak that a loaded cartridge, let alone an empty, could depress the follower at all.
If the case gets pulled back under the feed lips, it doesn't rely on weight to depress the follower.

The photo the OP provided shows what happened. Look at it again.
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Old May 9, 2022, 12:20 PM   #27
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Here's a little better picture.

https://carolinafirearmsforum.com/in.../#post-1894281
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Old May 9, 2022, 12:23 PM   #28
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I think 1911 Tuner gave a pretty good explanation of what is most likely going on.

Let's look at what we know, and remember that during the entire process, things don't have to go completely wrong to cause the problem, just wrong enough, at the wrong time.

Last round fired case fed back into the chamber.

this means there are two things not happening. Fired case is not being ejected, and the slide is not locking open. And they are happening at what looks like the same time.

But, is it? exactly??

First, the extractor IS pulling the fired case out of the chamber. (and the rear of the barrel is pointed down when it does this -unlocked-)
And, this happens before the slide has moved back far enough to allow the slide stop to engage.

And here's where timing comes in. Where, in the process in YOUR gun is the slide at the point where it normally ejects? Is the slide in position to have the slide stop hold it open at THAT point??

I ask because I'm too lazy to go get my Govt model and play with it, right now AND, because your gun might be slightly different from mine...

IF, as suggested the extractor is hanging on long enough to pull the fired case back and slightly down (and slightly depressing the follower) just enough, and at just the right time to keep the slide stop from engaging, and THEN letting go so the rearward movement of the slide does not kick the case out when it hits the ejector this could explain how your problem is happening.

Time to play with the gun... remove the recoil spring, so you can slowly move the parts by hand, and using a fired case, work the cycle slowly, watching to see where the slide is, in relation to the stop and when the case hits the ejector, and how much more the slide moves back after that.

Also consider this, might the magazine (follower) be playing a part?? Does the last round jam happen with every magazine?? Just some?

Do you have a GI spec magazine? Can you test with one? does it happen with one, or only with "other" magazines??

I know the GI spec guns pretty well. I know what their parts should do, and when. BUT, when dealing with a non-GI spec gun/parts the "rules" can become guidelines and tolerances can vary.

Just for example, look at magazines. Today you can have several different designs of followers, and a couple different styles of feed lips, 8rnds vs 7 etc. Point here is, things have been changed from GI spec. When that happens, the "standard" things may apply differently and you have to work with the gun in your hands to find out what, where, and how much the differences are, in order to make allowances for that.
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Old May 9, 2022, 12:31 PM   #29
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this means there are two things not happening. Fired case is not being ejected, and the slide is not locking open. And they are happening at what looks like the same time.
Go back and look at the OP's photo and the one I just linked to. The case rim is UNDER the feed lips. The follower can't rise and engage the slidestop. Before the slide ran forward again, the case may have been completely in the magazine before the extractor was ripped off of it.

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Last edited by 1911Tuner; May 9, 2022 at 12:44 PM.
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Old May 9, 2022, 05:40 PM   #30
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My interpretation is different.
- The extractor pulled the case, holding the right side of the case
- The slide short-stroked, but the front of the case came free of the chamber
- The ejector never came into full play to kick the shell fully right & out.
- The slide began to re-close with the case cocked ever slightly up
- Extractor held the right side of the rim, left side was loose
- Moving forward, right rim began to ride under mag lip, left on top.
- Everything continued oriented that way, until hitting the top chamber shroud
- Boom.



Observation:
Gun functions totally normally until extremely light (160gr) bullet used.


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Old May 9, 2022, 05:46 PM   #31
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Could be. Mr Browning thought a 200 grain bullet was right, I tend to agree.
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Old May 9, 2022, 06:08 PM   #32
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My interpretation is different.
That doesn't explain why the case is part way in the magazine.

This ain't my first rodeo. I've seen this exact problem more than a few times. In all but one, the extractor channel was located too far to the right and angled, causing the extrctor to clock. In the one exception, the extractor had been "tuned" by someone who didn't understand that when the barrel drops, the case drops along with it.

Anyway...I was asked to take a look at this thread. I did. Cheers.
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Old May 9, 2022, 11:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
If the case gets pulled back under the feed lips, it doesn't rely on weight to depress the follower.
There is no possible way for the case to get pulled back under the feedlips while the extractor has it. The case is extracted well above the magazine feedlips as can be easily verified with some experimentation.
Quote:
Before the slide ran forward again, the case may have been completely in the magazine.
Get your pistol out and try to replicate what you are describing with an empty case. You will very quickly see that the case comes out of the barrel much too high to end up back in the magazine.

Also, If the extractor on his particular gun really were pulling the case out of the chamber and re-inserting it into the magazine the gun wouldn't work with any loading--the last round would always hang up. The OP has already stated that with other than light loadings things work fine.

So, what about a hotter loading causes the extractor to start working right and stop it from loading empties back into the magazine? If what you are saying is true, then the hotter load would cause the slide to lock back, but the empty would be just left inserted into the magazine once it stripped off the extractor.

Clearly what happened was that with the hotter loading, the ejection started working (and the slide started locking back) and once the case was ejecting it wasn't hanging around in the chamber area where the slide could close on it.
Quote:
The case rim is UNDER the feed lips.
It is quite obviously not "UNDER" the feedlips. It is jammed down into the feedlips from the top with part of the case head being between the feedlips but most of the case head being above both feedlips.

The case was extracted, but the loading didn't create enough force to lock the slide back or to get the case ejected properly . That left the case loose of the extractor but still in the chamber area. It bounced back down and when the slide tried to close, the front of the empty hit the slide and the bottom got jammed downward into the mag from the top under the considerable force of the slide closing. You can see how much force was applied by how it bent the case mouth.
Quote:
In all but one, the extractor channel was located too far to the right and angled, causing the extrctor to clock.
Fortunately, using a hotter loading moved his extractor channel back to the proper location and angle.
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Old May 28, 2022, 04:47 PM   #34
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As an update, I used mid-level charges with my 200gr SWC and 225gr LRN in an 8rd ACT mag and had zero issues. I'll just stick with that from now on.
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Old May 29, 2022, 01:37 AM   #35
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I can't say I know for sure,but looking with an open mind, and really giving 1911 Tuner's idea a chance, I can give his sequence a "Seems Possible". I looked at the photo, and I imagined the sequence as he described with the idea "Can I see it work?"

Two clues: The gash in the case above the mag lip was likely cut by the mag lip.

It looks to me like it would have to have been cut while the case head was moving down and to the rear. Then it was hit by quite a bit of force....As the slide was traveling to the rear. Look at the crush on the case mouth. It looks to me it occurred while the slide was traveling rearward under recoil,as the case head was stopped on the magazine. It would be interesting to check if the mag lips were spread.

I just don't think the case mouth would look quite like that if the slide was traveling forward and driving the case.

I'm not declaring a verdict. I'm saying I can see 1911 Tuners diagnosis has merit.

Its been a while since I watched high speed camera slow-mo of the cycling of a semi-auto,but it can be far more dynamic than we imagine.
Extractor tension needs to hold the case head on the breech face. Enough to not easily "Shake Off" 1911 Tuner brought up the motion of link down in a way I had not really thought of before. I'm having a hard time visualizing the exact timing,but the barrel with cartridge brass is accelerated downward and rearward till the barrel suddenly stops on the frame.
That should be when slide and barrel are fully unlocked and extraction begins. As the case is being drawn out of the chamber, the gun is going to buck up and to the rear. The timing just might be right for the case head to meet the mag lips as the slide chops the case mouth.

Could happen.

A 1911 will run when its not "quite right" IF you find the right ammo with the right recoil impulse you find a "window of operation" that works.

Its running with your 200 grain loads. Great!! But I suspect your extractor still needs tuning.

It should not have let the 160 gr load fall off the breech.

Last edited by HiBC; May 29, 2022 at 02:03 AM.
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Old June 30, 2022, 11:16 PM   #36
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I may have figured out why my last round jams on occasion. I took out the extractor and it rotates a little, so I have the dreaded 'clocking' problem. The case is slipping off the extractor and returns forward, crunching it.

The interwebs mention a slightly larger firing pin retainer plate, any experience?
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Old June 30, 2022, 11:24 PM   #37
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Before you get another part (or three), try a fix.

Shim it.
So that the firing pin stop and the notch in the extractor are a snug fit with no play or twisting.

Then shoot and see what happens. Shoot the same thing that jams, and see if it makes a difference. If it does, there you go, you know what to do to fix it permanently. If not, your problem lies elsewhere and the troubleshooting needs to continue.
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Old July 1, 2022, 12:44 AM   #38
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Yup, upon further reflection, my analysis above is incorrect.
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Old July 3, 2022, 10:49 PM   #39
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I'll have to try that! The part comes in a couple days but will try that first as it "requires fitting".
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Old July 4, 2022, 04:03 AM   #40
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"The interwebs mention a slightly larger firing pin retainer plate, any experience?"

In the few 1911's I've fitted up I always buy the oversized FPS and machine it to be a tight fit (not cussing tight), making sure the groove in the extractor is flush with the groove for the FPS. In short, my extractors cannot clock that way, there's no way they can turn.
There's a website that shows the most effective extractor hook configuration, a little work with a small arkansaw stone smooths the passageway the cartridge travels up under the hook. (https://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm)
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Old July 4, 2022, 10:03 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by HisSoldier View Post
There's a website that shows the most effective extractor hook configuration . . .
You may find this LINK to be of interest.
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Old July 5, 2022, 01:17 PM   #42
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I finally got the new plate installed, would this amount of rotation be acceptable?

https://ibb.co/9ZDjcN1
https://ibb.co/hmftwv0

It's better than the original but not much.
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Old July 5, 2022, 02:00 PM   #43
Steve in Allentown,
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Originally Posted by chris in va View Post
I finally got the new plate installed, would this amount of rotation be acceptable?
Ideally, you don't want any rotation or fore and aft movement.

The drawing below shows an extractor that clocks. The view is looking at the breechface from the muzzle.

The red half moon shape is the extractor. The straight edge is the tensioning wall against which the case rim bears as the barrel goes in and out of battery. As the barrel comes out of battery the back of the barrel drops down taking the fired case/loaded round with it. As the case rim travels down the extractor's tensioning wall it will cause the extractor to rotate unless the firing pin stop is preventing it from doing so. In the scenario shown below the case will fall free of the extractor.

So, how much rotation is acceptable? None in my book.



Honestly, I'd fit another FPS. Fit it snugly to the slide first. Once it's a snug fit in the slide don't remove any more material from the FPS. Next fit the extractor to the FPS. You may have to remove material from the front or back wall to allow the FPS to fit. If the distance from the extractor hook to the breechface is greater than .075", file the front wall to move the extractor hook back toward the breechface. Do not remove too much material. There is to be zero fore and aft movement of the extractor when you finish.

You will likely have to remove material from firing pin stop slot bottom wall. Again, sneak up on the fit. This surface is responsible for preventing the extractor from clocking so be careful not to take off more than is needed.


Last edited by Steve in Allentown,; July 5, 2022 at 02:18 PM.
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Old July 5, 2022, 10:03 PM   #44
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If your gun has the original Springfield extractor, I would buy a brand new Wilson Combat Bullet proof extractor and maybe a new firing pin stop. I would make sure the extractor is adjusted properly (not holding a loaded round too tight, but tight enough, per instructions from Wilson Combat and other sources, and use a good magazine. And the gun will probably run fine. Just my opinion.

In the past, I have had two 1911's with prior long history's (Long Track Records of running pretty much at 100% for thousands of rounds of grungy handloads) all of a sudden start jamming. One was a Series 70 Colt, which I had used in competition for over ten years and the other was a Springfield Lightweight 5-inch gun, which had experienced moderate use. Bought guns were used with mostly Wilson 7D mags, and 200 gr cast lead semi-wadcutters, with a few commercial hardball and hollow-point rounds mixed in.

Bottom line, I would ditch the stock extractor, and install a Willson Bulletproof, because I consider it to be one of the best extractors out there and I would be surprised if it didn't solve your problems.
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Old July 6, 2022, 07:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Blue Duck View Post
If your gun has the original Springfield extractor, I would buy a brand new Wilson Combat Bullet proof extractor and maybe a new firing pin stop. I would make sure the extractor is adjusted properly . . .
Good advice although I greatly prefer EGW extractors.

I humbly recommend reading this extractor fitting tutorial before beginning the process.
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Old July 6, 2022, 08:32 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911Tuner
There are two possibilities:

Either the extractor is rotating counter-clockwise far enough to drop the case...usually caused by the extractor channel being located too far to the right or the lower edge of the extractor tensioning wall has been heavily beveled, and when the barrel drops, pulling the case down with it, the case rim loses contact with the part of the wall that keeps tension on it...and falls off the breechface.
I’m going to assume this is a newish, or at least unmodified Citadel 5”. So, I’m going to assume it has no extractor tuning done and the bottom bevels are the normal nearly nothing level because it cannot form well in the process they use.

You suggested clocking due to off location slide hole….it may be, but those holes are drilled, I believe, so I’m going to guess it is reasonably accurate. The FPS and Extractor, I believe, are formed and they want to use as formed. My guess is the fit between extractor and FPS are a bit of a tolerance dump zone and the fit is just too loose.

Last, I would be money that the spring tension in the extractor is completely untuned.

My temporary fix would be to adjust the extractor to have light tension on the case head while still feeding 100%. Try this by comparing (tension) detent feeling on 2 guns….ideally 2 1911’s, but any is ok. You want light tension against the case rim, a loaded round should just barely stay put with a light shake. Last check feeding from the rear. Is the extractor rotating in the hole? If so, this likely won’t work.

The permanent solution is to properly fit a new firing pin stop and extractor.

What do you think @1911tuner? Could this work?
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Old July 6, 2022, 10:30 AM   #47
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Here is a firing pin stop with some steel to fit https://www.egwguns.com/oversized-fi...70-45-acp-blue

If you do have some dimensional flaw in the location of the extractor tunnel,
Here is an EGW extractor that has not been slotted for the firing pin stop.

You can cut it to get tight clocking with just about any tolerance stackup.

https://www.egwguns.com/gi-extractor...ries-70-blue-1

When a flat is used to clock a round piece, it does not take much clearance to allow clocking error.
There are a few skilled and patient individuals who can file such surfaces to be flat,square,and to dimension with less than .001 clearance to minimize clocking error.
Most of the time.
The rest of us might do it three times and still have extractor rotation.

Yeah,I know. Should be a simple little job.....

But I'll do better by taking precise measurements,(pin gages, adjustable parallels,etc. And don't forget the hole in the FP stop needs to stay centered in the slide so the FP is free. Then I cheat and use a mill or surface grinder.

Thats one way to get the slot just right in the extractor,too.

They are not complex cuts, but getting the measurements right ,making a good sketch, and cutting just the right amount of steel off takes some fair to middling toolmaker skills. Mostly measuring and making the sketch.

Given the cost of parts,paying a 1911 smith or good machinist to do the job may be money well spent.
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Old July 6, 2022, 03:02 PM   #48
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Wow ... OP's got problems.

I've had no jam-skis at all with my Colt series 70. It's still original, just as it came outta da box.

Dudes who mod their 1911s willy-nilly have all sorts a problems.

Leave it stock, unless it's a Kimber. Then send it back.

Why? 'Cause it's junk.

Word to the wise.
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Old July 6, 2022, 10:45 PM   #49
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Wow ... OP's got problems
Don't get me started on my 97b that's currently broken. Again.

I got the chance to do a 'shake test' with the slide off and an empty case. I couldn't get the case to shake out of the extractor no matter what. It was tight.

Last edited by chris in va; July 7, 2022 at 12:41 AM.
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Old July 7, 2022, 06:33 AM   #50
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Possibly TOO tight -- but I used to do the test with a dummy round, not an empty case.

Then I started using the Weigand extractor tension tester kit and never looked back.
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