uponone789 OWES ME A REFUND

[Mighty Joe Young]

Here's the Reader's Digest version:

I agreed to buy a rifle he had for sale at the end of March for $565. (A Ruger No. 1.) http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=242643 We had great communication throughout the price negotiations, but very little on his end after I sent my money.

He emailed me on April 12th to tell me that he'd mailed my rifle and thanked me for buying it. I emailed back asking for the tracking or delivery confirmation number.

No reply.

I emailed throughout the weekend asking for tracking or delivery confirmation.

No reply each time.

On 4-17-07 he IM'd me that he worked for Radford University near V-Tech and was very busy due to the events there and would email me the tracking information when he got home.

No reply.

On 4-18-07 he called my receiving dealer and spoke with the dealer's girlfriend and went on and on about how he wasn't trying to rip off anyone and that he didn't have time to answer my "47 emails" and that the delivery confirmation receipt was most likely destroyed in the laundry, therefore he couldn't give it to me, etc. Later that evening he emailed me telling me how he wasn't trying to rip me off. Note that he didn't call me.

I should point out that during this time I saw him logging on to, posting, and surfing on thefiringline.com. But he doesn't have time to email me or call me.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=245334

www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=2341389

www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271151

I made it perfectly clear in my reply email that I wasn't accusing anyone of any dishonesty, but I did want the tracking or delivery confirmation number.

No reply.

I emailed a couple of more times asking him to ask the post office from where he mailed it to get him copies of his shipping receipts. He replied that he would and stated that he couldn't remember by which method he shipped the rifle. (Priority, registered, etc.). Then nothing.

I emailed and called throughout the weekend of April 21-22 asking for an update and the location of the post office from where he mailed it.

No replies, no nothing. But he again had time to log on and surf AR15.com, thehighroad.org and here.

Monday morning, April 23rd, I called him at work and he refused to take my call, but finally emailed me that he mailed the rifle from the campus post office on Radford U and that the post office would begin a trace on the 10th if the rifle hadn't arrived. (By this time I'm sure you've realized that the rifle hasn't arrived on our end.) I called the campus post office and learned that he mailed it parcel post and DID NOT INSURE IT. They also indicated that they would run a trace AFTER 30 days had elapsed, which is after the 12th, not the 10th.

I emailed uponone789 on 4-30-07 and told him I would wait it out until 30 days had passed, but if the rifle had not been received by then that I would want a refund.

Again, no reply.

munyguru, an EE moderator on AR15.com, got ahold of him and told him to get proof that the rifle had been sent or send a refund. He replied to munyguru, but was non-committal about the refund.

He emailed me on 5-9-07 to inform me that he was having the USPS trace the package. (Keep in mind that he didn't purchase insurance or delivery confirmation.) I replied that I would let him know if the receiving dealer or I heard anything but if the rifle hadn't been received by the time the mail had run on 5-12-07 I'd need a refund.

No reply.

The mail ran yesterday and guess what? No gun, no nothing. He finally emailed me this bit of "wisdom" a little while ago:

"I will issue you a refund when i receive proof that you have not received the package. I WILL NOT issue you a refund until then. As far as the threatening tone of your emails (i would copy and paste the quote but i can't remember which email it was in-something about being black listed from the forums not being my only worry) I'm not sure where you're going with that but i don't believe that threats are very productive. Either way, the research has been turned into the usps, as i informed you of on Thursday of last week. When that is complete then there will be a solution to this ordeal."

Is this guy SERIOUS???????!!!!!!! He doesn't use any common sense when shipping a $600 rifle and he still expects me to share in his poor decision making???!!!!!

I'm really trying to avoid busting his butt and wanting to be fair about this, but he's not making it easy.

[OneBagNomad]

This guy has some serious sack on him. He jerks you around for a month and then has the nerve to tell you he doesn't appreciate your tone? As far as I'm concerned, you've gone above and beyond in your attempt to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn't wait around to hear from him about the USPS investigation. He's made it pretty clear that he doesn't care at all about keeping you informed. He owes you a refund, plain and simple. I'd give his local PD a call and see what they say. I'll bet you get your money back pretty quickly if the police start poking around.

[Edward429451]

Too bad he didn't buy insurance. It's his baby until it gets into your hands. I even insure brass that I send to people. Small price to pay for reputation preservation. USPS is good at losing things, common sense.

[Mighty Joe Young]

This is the text of the email in which uponone789 believes he's being threatened along with his full reply yesterday:


Brandon:

We have now reached the deadline for receipt of this rifle. My patience is at an ebb. I have left you multiple voice mail messages since yesterday and have sent you emails. You haven't replied to any of them.

You need to send me a refund in the amount of $565, ASAP:

Robert XXXXXX
XXX XXXXXXXX Place
XXXXXX, OK XXXXX-XXXX
(405) XXX-XXXX

If you choose to ignore your responsibility in this matter, getting yourself blacklisted from a few web sites will be the least of your troubles. I will be happy to discuss the consequences if you need me to do so.

I am also aware that you recently sold a S&W 1076 on Gunbroker: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=71173204

You have absolutely no excuse for not issuing me a full and unconditional refund in the amount of $565.

Robert
_______________________________________________________________


Robert:

I apologize for the untimely manner of my response but i was out of town for a little family vacation for the mothers day holiday. I actually got back around 9pm est but it took an hour and a half to check all my emails and voice mails. I must let you know that leaving me numerous voice mails and emails will not increase the speed of my reply, one would get the job done. I am not making light of this situation, but to reiterate you are not the only one that is "out" something in this situation. I will issue you a refund when i receive proof that you have not received the package. I WILL NOT issue you a refund until then. As far as the threatening tone of your emails (i would copy and paste the quote but i can't remember which email it was in-something about being black listed from the forums not being my only worry) I'm not sure where you're going with that but i don't believe that threats are very productive. Either way, the research has been turned into the usps, as i informed you of on Thursday of last week. When that is complete then there will be a solution to this ordeal.
Make sure you send a copy of this to the ar15 moderator i didnt cc him on this, and i want to keep him up to date on our little situation, and yes i did just sale a firearm on gunbroker and it will be at the ups store first thing in the morning, thanks for keeping up with my auctions.
Sincerely,

Brandon XXXXXXX
_______________________________________________________________


Brandon:

Exactly what "proof" do you want? Since you elected to forego purchasing even the most basic of tracking products what do you suggest? You can call Bill and ask him for copies of his bound book for the past month, but that's about as close as you're going to get. You seem to insinuate that I ought to wait until the USPS has completed their tracing. I've already waited long enough and the EE moderators on AR15.com believe I've waited TOO long. You're absolutely insane if you think I'm going to wait another minute!!!!!!

I have made it PERFECTLY CLEAR that you had until 5-12-07 to produce the rifle or give me a refund. What part of that don't you understand????!!!!!!!

Let me spin your dogma in a different direction: Can you prove you sent a rifle? Can you prove you sent it to Bill? What reasonable steps did you take to ensure its safe and timely delivery?

As for what happens if you fail to issue a refund so that I can take receipt BY 5-18-07, your account on AR15.com will be locked. That's for starters. I've also taken preliminary steps at contacting the Commonwealth Attorney's Office in Pulaski and filing a criminal complaint for embezzlement. (Virginia criminal code LAR2707F9 and 18.2-111.) I'm also planning on obtaining a money judgement and a wage garnishment via the district court. Since you've used your job as an excuse for being "too busy" to reply to an email or accept my telephone calls (all the while finding the time to surf and post on thehighroad.org, thefiringline.com, smith-wessonforum.com, and AR15.com) I'll also contact Radford's human resources and make them aware of your contemptible and decidedly non-work related actions while at work.

You are in a very tenuous position to defend your actions. Your best bet is to issue the refund ASAP and we'll put this entire incident behind us.

I find it EXTREMELY distasteful to have to bust a fellow gun owner's ass, but you're not leaving me any other choice.

Robert
_______________________________________________________________



Make up your own minds if I'm being unreasonable and threatening.

[fisherman66]

Sorry to hear that Joe. I'm not sure where I recognize your handle. Maybe it's from the Ruger#1 yahoo mb. I'm new there, working on a #1 RSI project.

Good luck getting either the rifle or refund.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Here is the text of an email I sent uponone789 early this morning:

Brandon:

Allow me to refresh your memory with emails munyguru/Don and I sent you.

On 4-30-2007 I sent you this:


I spoke with your post office at the university and they indicated that they can run a trace on the item after 30 days have passed, with or without your receipts and delivery confirmation numbers. They also indicated that it was sent parcel post, not registered and NOT insured. I'll give it a full thirty days before asking for a refund. I'll let Bill know to keep looking for it.



In the mean time, here's the form you'll need to fill out and take to your post office when you're ready to begin tracing it:



http://www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1000.pdf


On 5-4-2007 munyguru/Don sent you this:

If there is a question about the FFL receiving the rifle then I would call the FFL and see if that is the case. It would have to go through their books for transfer so it would not be something they would be able to lie about.
You cannot hold the buyer responsible for the package not showing up. You received the funds and he did not get what he paid for. Bottom line is you need to refund him if the rifle cannot be delivered as promised and without him having to wait an indefinite amount of time while all of the USPS process takes place.

On 5-4-2007 I sent you this:

Brandon:

I spoke with Bill XXXXXX earlier: the rifle still has not arrived. To reaffirm the email I sent you on 4-30-07, if the rifle hasn't been received after the mail has run on 5-12-07 (the 30-day mark for the USPS), I will expect a refund in the amount of $565 to be received by me no later than 5-18-07.

I am again including the link to the USPS tracing form for you to submit. Tracing and recovering the rifle is your responsibility and is a transaction that can only occur between you and the USPS. Please reply to this email so that we are aware that you have received and understood these terms.

Robert

http://www.usps.com/forms/_pdf/ps1000.pdf


Is there something inherently difficult to understand about any of those requests or instructions? The deal was for you to ship a rifle to Bill XXXXXX for me in exchange for $565 and it was to be received on or before 5-12-2007. If it could not be received on or before 5-12-2007 you were to issue a refund. Those were the terms of the deal, were they not?

You keep alluding to this nonsense about receiving a package. Get this through your head: THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY PACKAGE RECEIVED. You couldn't comply with the terms of our deal and that deal is now null and void. If by some chance the rifle shows up, Bill will not open or inventory it. The package will be marked RETURN TO SENDER and remain within the system until it's been returned to you. You CHOSE NOT to purchase any tracking service or insurance. You did, Brandon. That was a choice YOU made.

Your CHOICES are not in keeping with a "reasonable man" defense. You did not choose to do what a "reasonable" man would do when shipping an item of high monetary value with federal restrictions. I know all of this because while you were spending time surfing the 'net and ignoring me because you were "too busy," I started doing my homework on what it would take to legally compell you to give me my money. I knew in the back of my mind that when push came to shove that you would refuse to make a refund.

If you choose to ignore this email or refuse a refund based on your ignorance or immature obstinance I am first going to contact Radford University's human resources department and provide them with the email you sent on University email:

From: XXXXXXX, Charles" <[email protected]>
Date: April 30, 2007 8:04 A.M.
Subject: RE: #1

I could not get a copy of the receipt I'm assuming it was washed in the same pair of pants as the delivery confirmation ticket was. It was shipped on 04-12 @ 8:55am From the post office here on the campus at Radford University (24142). I just went and spoke to the customer service person there and he told me that he couldn't do anything for 30 days and that if I came back on the 10 th that he could start the paper work.

Do you think Radford University will adopt a favorable or unfavorable view of your using University computers and email accounts to transact personal firearms business while in their employ? Does their policy allow for employees and other staff to bring firearms to campus for the purpose of mailing them? Will the university react favorably or unfavorably if there is reason to believe that one of their employees may be using University computers and email accounts to engage in the crime of embezzlement on University time?

My next action will be to contact the Commonwealth Attorney's office in Pulaski. (K. Mike Fleenor, 540-980-7893.) I believe I have enough information to secure a criminal complaint against you for embezzlement under Virgina law. (Virginia criminal code LAR2707F9 and 18.2-111.)

The third and final action will be to secure a money judgment and wage garnishment via district court.

These are not threats. I simply want my money refunded to me as you are required to do under the terms of our purchase agreement. You have thus far been unable to prove that you mailed a rifle, you have been unable to prove that you mailed anything to Bill, and you've been unable to prove that you took reasonable precautions to ensure that anything mailed or shipped would be delivered safely and in a timely manner.

http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forum...f=109&t=439412

We can reach modus vivendi if you send me a refund. I am willing to go my separate way and forget that you and I ever had any dealings.

Don't ignore this email and don't ignore your responsibility in this matter.

Robert
(405) XXX-XXXX

[Mighty Joe Young]

A little after 7:00 A.M. EDT this morning, I called uponone789 (as usual, he wouldn't pick up) and left him a message instructing him to read his email, ASAP. Around twenty minutes later he sent me this:

I will put a check in the mail today. Any threats i could possibly make in retort would be useless. I wish i lived closer to the OK. Busting me? Wow All i can say is way to go. Pat on the back. If i was a crook i def. wouldn't waste my time on 500 bucks anyway, its on its way, its been nice doing business with you.

Brandon

__________________________________________________________

I apologize for things appearing disjointed, but I wanted to try and get everything pertinent posted as clearly as possible.

Hopefully he's not pulling my dick on this refund business.

[MDman]

hmm something else sent in the mail...

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by fisherman66

Sorry to hear that Joe. I'm not sure where I recognize your handle. Maybe it's from the Ruger#1 yahoo mb. I'm new there, working on a #1 RSI project.

Good luck getting either the rifle or refund.

I only use my Yahoo! user ID over there, but I'm mildly acquainted with J.B. Boren and one or two others. It's a good resource for No. 1 owners.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by MDman

hmm something else sent in the mail...

I know what you mean.

[DonR101395]

hmm something else sent in the mail...

Can't sell a gun using paypal, but can you issue a refund for one?? Not sure I would want a check from this guy.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by DonR101395

Can't sell a gun using paypal, but can you issue a refund for one?? Not sure I would want a check from this guy.

That's a chance I'll have to take. I think he understands that this isn't a game to me and with him having stable employment the legal consequences could be severe. Of course I also thought he understood enough to buy insurance, too.

[Wrascal]

All I can add is WOW.

I had similar troubles (last month) trying to receive a holster that I'd purchased on GlockTalk.com. I did eventually receive it, but it was a month later, and not nearly new as described.

Lots of ignoring emails, and lots of entries on numerous forums.
In my case, emails being marked as spam - yet the initial offers/selling emails can be responded to within 30 min. (yeah, sure). And that wasn't the only method I tried to contact him with, he chose to ignore all available methods.
And blaming other people for the problems.

Lots of excuses. Lies and deceit? Or dumb and lazy, I don't know.


BEST OF LUCK!

[uponone789]

Wow glad i just found this little jewel. All i can say is that i have never seen someone get sooo bent out of shape over 565 dollars ever. I know its a matter of principle, and i was really in this to be a crook i really wouldn't have my real info. Like home address and phone numbers. Mr. Brown sent me a personal check for payment which i politely waited while it cleared so he could politely do the same for me. To all of you who have posted bashing comments i hope you aren't ever in a similar situation. At this point i could really care less about what anyone thinks, i have had successful transactions on here and other forums, both buying and selling.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by uponone789

Wow glad i just found this little jewel.

Found? FOUND???!!!! I sent you the link.

Originally Posted by uponone789

All i can say is that i have never seen someone get sooo bent out of shape over 565 dollars ever.

How about this then; if the rifle happens to show up at Bill's, what if he and I just hang on to it for a little while? I'm sure you won't get "bent out of shape" or anything. I mean, you'll only be out $565 or so.

[Shane Tuttle]

Well uponone, when Joe stacks that much evidence against you and all you can say is "hope you're aren't ever in a similar situation"? How about stop the spinning and start giving straight answers to Joe. Better yet, send the refund using a cashier's check via USPS Priority Mail and eat the $4 it costs to send it. Cheap price to pay for what's left of your reputation...

[Magdaddy]

Be sure and insure the refund check.

[VUPDblue]

It's as simple as pie here. As long as the rifle is "lost in the mail" it is still the property of Uponone789. At this point, he still owns the rifle AND MJY's $565. It is only fair that the $565 be returned to MJY, and '789 can take on the burden of trying to get HIS OWN PROPERTY back. If I were you '789, I wouldn't take any of MJY's messages as threats. He is a normal guy who just doesn't want to have thrown away $565 and will do every legal thing within his power to get it back. The burden of doing the right thing here is in your hands.

[JohnKSa]

Everybody on this thread needs to remain polite and let the facts speak for themselves.

Thanks,

John

[uponone789]

I have issued a refund, it was put in the mail yesterday, priority ofcourse. I participate in business transactions daily most of them for a lot more than the money we're dealing with here and i guess the biggest mistake i made here was not being overly sympathetic. I agree that Mr. Browns hard earned money is still in my checking account and my #1 is still floating around somewhere, which i understand is my burden. Selling guns is not my business, i dont have a large feedback history because i dont sell lots of stuff. And, i definatley wont start now. I feel that the threats that were made and the comments that have followed are a complete waste and are not constructive at all. I know i made a mistake not insuring the package, and from now on i will, this is a lesson that could potentially cost me money and definately lots of headache. So thanks for all the constructive criticism.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by uponone789

i guess the biggest mistake i made here was not being overly sympathetic.

No, your fault lies in your arrogance. From the get-go your attitude has been one of "not my problem."

You mailed the rifle uninsured and without tracking because you figured it wasn't your "problem."

You ceased communication after you cashed my check because you felt it was no longer your "problem."

You more or less told me to go pound sand on Sunday evening because you felt it wasn't your "problem." (Go back and read your email where you told me I would have to wait until the USPS completed their tracing before issuing a refund.)

It IS your problem and it's been YOUR "problem" from the beginning.

I used to think your problem was immaturity and poor judgment, but now I'm of the mind you're simply an arrogant reprobate who shouldn't be allowed to participate in any classified ad sales here or on any other gun-related web site.

[uponone789]

The only delay in sending you a refund in the first place is my distrust with the location of the package. You dont think i ever shipped the damn thing and i think you've already got it. I know i shipped the package, and you know you never received it. How much trouble would you go to for money, sure you could send me copies of your FFL's books, but those could be altered. So there inlies the paradox of online deals.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally Posted by uponone789

The only delay in sending you a refund in the first place is my distrust with the location of the package. You dont think i ever shipped the damn thing and i think you've already got it. I know i shipped the package, and you know you never received it. How much trouble would you go to for money, sure you could send me copies of your FFL's books, but those could be altered. So there inlies the paradox of online deals.

I'll ask you ONE MORE TIME:

Can you PROVE you mailed a rifle?

Can you PROVE you mailed anything to Bill?

Can you PROVE Bill received anything?

What PRECAUTIONS did you take to ENSURE SAFE and TIMELY delivery?

[DonR101395]

Hold on let me get the popcorn

[uponone789]

No man, i just front gun sales so i can borrow money from people and send it back to them. That was really the whole intention to get started. I was short the money that i needed to run my tractor for a month so i just faked the gun sale. You're not actually calling a post office, its all a big hoax, they all work for me. Ha ha ha evil laugh....I NOW RULE THE WORLD!!!! I have successfully managed to borrow your money. WOW that feels good. Damn i need a smoke