Help!!!!!

[1873Colt]

My cousin and I were out shooting today for the first time since he moved back from Florida. While he was away his sister who the kids of my generation excluding myself call "Gangsta"(I use the word stupidity) stole his Sig Mosquito and filed the serial number off the side of the slide. Luckily my uncle(great guy) caught her before she could get it out on the "streets". Is there anything he can do about this? He is legal to have firearms but I dont know what he can do to get the number back or... I just have no clue

All comments are much aprreciated.

-Trenten

[YARDDOG(1)]

Call the PO PO ON GANGSTA !! JMO ; )
Y/D

[Hoss Fly]

Great story
Anyways i doubt if kids did it it was COMPLETLY removed-
Belive me- todays law enforcement agencys can get the numbers- if you really want to take it to one local agencies (higher upper the better) & give them "the story"

[5.56RifleGuy]

Im not sure if there is anything he can do. I think you can get in trouble for filing off a serial though. There is no firearms registration in FL though, so he might be ok?

[mete]

Filing off a serial number is a federal crime AFAIK .He could perhaps stamp the number back on but he better contact the BATF .They would have to take care of the whole case .

[Hoss Fly]

Im not sure if there is anything he can do. I think you can get in trouble for filing off a serial though. There is no firearms registration in FL though, so he might be ok?

Thats just WRONG
Big problems for removing/altering a serial number on a gun in any state

[1873Colt]

Your old self made me chuckle Hoss Fly.Cant love these nerdbox conversations more. Then thats what we will have to do. Shes not a kid but a twenty one year old punk ass, with really annoying freinds who "bang". I agree with you 100% YD shes in the pen as im typing this.

[5.56RifleGuy]

Wasn't sure, so I don’t like to be definite ether way. Would it be most likely that the law enforcement agency would just take it?

[Hoss Fly]

Wasn't sure, so I don’t like to be definite ether way. Would it be most likely that the law enforcement agency would just take it?

No- it has to be reported stolen actually - Thats if they can retrive the numbers
Had one like that about 15yrs ago i got from my BIL who got it from a freind who got it- ECT-
Its just that if you get "caught" with it without paperwork its goning to cost you time, paperwork & most likely money to get it back

[5.56RifleGuy]

It would be nice if people just respected others property in the first place. If the gun was purchased from a shop they should have a record of it in their log book. The relative could get the serial number from the gun shop.

[Hoss Fly]

It would be nice if people just respected others property in the first place. If the gun was purchased from a shop they should have a record of it in their log book. The relative could get the serial number from the gun shop.

"A" serial number don't mean nothing if it's not on the gun

[1873Colt]

From what Im told there is another serial number located somewere else on the gun? Its a Sig Mosquito. Do some guns have the serial number on them twice?

[AK103K]

Just restamp the number. Its not illegal to remove the number if you restamp it. Its illegal to remove it for "unlawful" purposes.

[azredhawk44]

The slide is legally not the firearm.

The barrel is legally not the firearm.

The frame IS legally the firearm.

It's completely legal to buy aftermarket slides/barrels that lack serial numbers and put them on frames. The frame is legally the owner of the serial number.

If the serial number is still on the FRAME, chalk it up to stupid kids and handle the punishment "in house." Or, if you'd rather, report it to police with the knowledge that the gun itself still has an appropriate serial number and should be returned to you. Don't let the police try to destroy it or confiscate it for anything other documentation as evidence..

if the FRAME serial number is gone... report them to police.

[Dragline45]

I would try calling Sig, see if they can do anything for you. Thankfully its a mosquito and wasn't his antique 1911.

[imthegrumpyone]

I first would of broke the cousins fingers, you don't steal from me. And a relative at that ! Sounds like a upstanding citizen, second I would of had the law pick her (or him) if the case maybe.

[8shot357]

"A" serial number don't mean nothing if it's not on the gun

The serial # might be ground down, but I doubt it was ground off. The stamp's can still be found. You have to drill them out/off like they do with stolen Harley frames (Chop shops).

As far as the problem, move on, and get rid of the sister, and the gun. Legally of course.

If you doubt what I said, do the research on griding serial numbers off. they are still there most likely, even if they ground them down, but it's not worth $$$ it to find out unless the gun was used in a crime.

I think I'd turn the gun into the police, and sleep better at night.

[8shot357]

One other note, I think it would be hard to prove who ground down the number's. But turn in the gun, it's in your best interest, after all it a cheap gun, get rid of it ASAP.

[Mike Irwin]

The problem as I see it is that, since the serial number has been altered and for whatever reason the police find it in your cousin's possession, the assumption is going to be that HE is the one who altered the serial number, and he's going to be on the ticket for whatever legal ride the authorities decide to take him on.

Until this is resolved, that gun really should NOT be in his, or anyone else's, possession, and he definitely should NOT take it shooting.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by AK103K

Just restamp the number. Its not illegal to remove the number if you restamp it. Its illegal to remove it for "unlawful" purposes.

Incorrect.

Federal law (and most state laws) prohibits removing or altering a serial number. It IS illegal to remove and restamp a serial number. The law says nothing about the purpose of removing a serial number -- the law says you can't do it. And, as has been pointed out, the same Federal law stipulates that whoever is in possession of the firearm when the alteration is discovered is legally presumed to be the dastard who committed the felonious act ... so this is not something to treat lightly.

However -- the original post said the "gangsta" filed the serial number off the slide. Federal law requires that the serial number be located on the receiver. There should be a number on the receiver, and if this is the case the fact the non-required number on the slide has been altered/obscured/removed "may" not be a violation. As an example, Argentinean Sistema 1911s have a serial number on the slide and the barrel as well as on the receiver. I don't think anyone has ever gotten in trouble for replacing a Sistema barrel.

I would suggest that your friend examine the pistol carefully and determine if there is, in fact, an unaltered serial number on the receiver. If so, he could then write to the BATFE and ask for clarification as to whether the serial number on the slide is required, or if it can legally be removed or obscured.

If there is no serial number on the receiver, your friend should have a lawyer contact the BATFE and explain the situation. The BATFE does have a procedure to stamp a replacement serial number on a firearm, but the work has to be done by a gunsmith approved by the BATFE and strict protocols have to be followed. My guess is the process would cost more than buying a new Mosquito and, worst case, he would be better off surrendering the gun if the number that was defaced is the only serial number on it.

[AK103K]

Federal law (and most state laws) prohibits removing or altering a serial number. It IS illegal to remove and restamp a serial number. The law says nothing about the purpose of removing a serial number -- the law says you can't do it.

Since youre throwing "laws" about, can you please post the specific cite that says this.

[divil]

It's completely legal to buy aftermarket slides/barrels that lack serial numbers and put them on frames. The frame is legally the owner of the serial number.

I don't think anyone has ever gotten in trouble for replacing a Sistema barrel.

You are both correct; however, replacing a part of the firearm is not the same thing as tampering with the serial number. I would not be so sure it's legal in this case. Having a slide with no serial number may be fine, but my guess is if it has a serial number, and it's the same as the one on the frame, then you can't tamper with it. It is just a guess however.

[Brian Pfleuger]

The "kid" needs to be punished. There is no benefit to anyone if you let this "slide" or handle it "in house".

Continuously avoiding the consequences of actions is why people continue to act.

I would push it as far as it could go. When it was done, I'd demand restitution for whatever it cost me and I would sue her in small claims court if she didn't pay.

She'll only hate you until she understands causality and she'll be better off, regardless.

[youngunz4life]

many of a crimes have been solved because badguy thought he filed off the number. they did file off the serial #, but on some firearms that # still exists in another layer of the firearm.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The relevant law is 18 U.S.C. 922 (k) which reads:

"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,
ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any
firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."


Based on a "I don't want to go to jail" reading of that statute, the Sig Mosquito has a serial number that has been altered. Anybody who knows that the serial number has been altered is guilty of a federal felony crime if they transport, ship, receive, or possess the Sig Mosquito.

I don't see anything in there about "it is OK if it is only on the frame" or "it is OK if there is a serial number somewhere else on the pistol"; but I don't know everything there is to know about this law and it is possible there are other statutes or case law out there. If anyone wants to share those, I would be interested in seeing them.

Looking at Sig Mosquito prices online, the pistol is worth less brand new than what two hours of a lawyer's time go for. I'd just get rid of the pistol at this point (or at least the part with the altered serial number). It isn't worth the potential legal costs to keep it.

You could also try resolving it with the ATF yourself; but you lose the advantage of lawyer-client confidentiality if the ATF decides they want to prosecute someone. If you do go this route, make sure you get the answer in writing directed to the owner of the pistol.

ETA: Found this decision U. S. Vs. Carter, 421 F.3d 909 from the 9th Circuit discussing what "altered" means under 18 USC 922(k). The holding here was:

"In sum, the ordinary meaning of the phrase "altered or obliterated" cannot support the contention that a firearm's serial number must be rendered scientifically untraceable for Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4) to apply. To the contrary, nothing in the language, structural context, legislative history, or purpose of § 2K2.1(b)(4) suggests that any defacement must make tracing impossible or extraordinarily difficult. We hold, therefore, that for the purposes of Guideline § 2K2.1(b)(4), a firearm's serial number is "altered or obliterated" when it is materially changed in a way that makes accurate information less accessible. We further hold that, under that standard, a serial number which is not discernable to the unaided eye, but which remains detectable via microscopy, is altered or obliterated."

This would only be relevant to the 9th Circuit though. Texas is in the 5th Circuit which might take a different view. Suffice it to say though, anyone caught in possession of that Sig Mosquito by law enforcement is going to get to go to court and hash that issue out. I haven't priced out what it costs to take a federal felony to the appellate level; but I bet you can buy a lot of new Sig Mosquitos for that price