Win 748, 110 gr. Bullet Loads for 30-06

jdoudna · June 8, 2019, 09:01 AM

I've been working on developing 110 gr. bullet loads for my 30-06 with a 22" barrel for hunting large varmints. I've been focusing on using Win 748 since I have 8 lbs. of the stuff, it is usable in 3 different cartridges I shoot, and meters perfectly through my powder measure. I was relying on Hodgdon's data which only lists a max load. I started lower and worked up to their max without very good results. After doing some more research, I found some confusing information for Win 748. The Hodgdon load is essentially identical to the load in a 50 year-old Winchester ball power pamphlet. The fact that Hodgdon only listed a max load leads me to believe that they did not do any tests after taking over the Winchester ball powder line, but merely regurgitated old Winchester data. I just bought a Lyman 50th edition manual, and it lists vastly different loadings for this powder/bullet combination. Lyman suggests starting at 51.0 grains and goes up to 60.0 grains. Further research lead me to Speer's online data, and they show loading starting at 58.0 grains going up to 62.0 grains.

I find it rather disconcerting that 3 loading data source list such vastly different loads for Win 748, so I'm confused as to what's valid. If Lyman and Speer data is good, it would suggest I may not have been driving the bullets fast enough to find the 'sweet spot' for my rifle. Does anyone out there have info on what would be the max load of Win 748 for a 30-06 driving a 110 gr. bullet?

Bart B. · June 8, 2019, 10:10 AM

Everyone developing cartridge loads does not use the same objectives, conditions and standards. That includes velocity and pressure measuring systems as well as component lot numbers, rifle barrel, reloading tools and techniques.

110 grain bullets shoot max loads most accurate in 30-06 barrels with a 1:20 twist. Your barrel probably has a 1:10 twist. Reduced loads will shoot your 110's most accurate in my opinion.

30BR benchrest match loads shooting 112 grain bullets 3000 fps in 1:18 twist barrels are popular because they are most accurate so used.

zeke · June 8, 2019, 10:57 AM

Hodgen is still publicizing some of the older Win data, and has been for some time. Alot of older data is carried through in current reloading manuals. Some of newer cartridges in Hodgen manuals have newer data for the Win powders. Personally would like it if they retested the 748 loads in several cartridges.

Reloadron · June 8, 2019, 12:32 PM

The data you posted is a little high if I look back to the Speer #12 Edition which, for Win 748 reflects 44.5 grains to 48.5 grains under a 110 grain Varminter JHP bullet. They seem to want to keep the velocity below 2,000 FPS for that bullet.

I can understand that Win 748 meters well but most ball powders do meter well as compared to stick powders. You don't mention what primer you are using but you may want to try using a a magnum type primer since you are loading using the Lyman data which my Lyman 49th Edition suggest what you mentioned, start at 51 grains with a max load of 60 grains for a 110 grain JHP bullet. Using a magnum primer with that much powder may give better ignition results.

Personally when I did try the real light 110 grain bullets in my 1:10 twist 30-06 barrels I never had much luck. I finally just assumed what Bart mentions above as I needed more velocity and as I pushed velocity up for accuracy I lost what I was after because my 1:10 twist barrels would not stabilize the light 30-06 bullets.

Ron

T. O'Heir · June 8, 2019, 01:09 PM

"...they did not do any tests..." That's entirely possible and highly probable. Suspect it has more to do with a 110 being a .30 Carbine bullet(Bart's 1 in 20 twist) and isn't really a .30 cal varmint bullet(not that it won't do nicely). Mind you, Hodgdon's site also says to use Magnum primers with magnum named cartridges, but not with other cartridges using the same powders. H110 and .30 Carbine vs .357 Mag for example.
Anyway, the Win 748 Start load will be 47.4(Max minus 10%). If you don't get decent accuracy it's because your rifle doesn't like the powder/bullet combination.
Having a keg is a good reason to use the powder, but not at the expense of accuracy. Try some IMR4064. Velocity is a bit higher too.
"...data source list such vastly different loads..." All of 'em reflect the averages of tests done with the exact components, firearm, barrel length and atmospheric conditions of the day of the test. Hodgdon/Winchester, for example, used a 1 in 10 twist 24" barrel and a standard Winchester brand LR primer.
"...58.0 grains going up to 62.0 grains..." That's for a TMJ. Still kind of hot and inconsistent though.

std7mag · June 8, 2019, 06:25 PM

Gee, for a 110gr 30 caliber bullet only being for the 30 Carbine, Hornady makes a V-Max and SP, and Sierra make a SPRN, FMJ Pro Hunter, and a HP Varmint Master.

Jdoudna,
I can run things through Quick Load for you to give you a place to start.
PM me with which bullet and COAL.

Roadkill2228 · June 9, 2019, 01:15 AM

I played with hornady 110 spire point varmint bullets (not .30 carbine projectiles, no idea what that assertion is based on) in my 300 win mag and never could get much for groups. The 10 twist is the problem. Got em around 3800 fps with imr 4350. 4 inch groups at 100. No good for any field use but they were a novelty load to begin with. The vaporization of a rotten pineapple, a rotten watermelon, some pumpkins, water jugs, and frost bitten zucchini was extremely gratifying and exactly what I was after.

Roadkill2228 · June 9, 2019, 01:44 AM

Don’t forget about the nosler 110 varmageddon too! And the Barnes 110 tac-tx.

Roadkill2228 · June 9, 2019, 01:47 AM

Also, for the record...Bart b. If you ever write a book on all your findings, experiences, and general but less than common knowledge about ballistics I’d want to read it. Always enjoy your posts, usually learn something new or am provided with food for thought anyways.

**44 AMP** · June 9, 2019, 02:38 AM

Personal experience with the Speer & Hornady 100gr plinkers and 110gr HP, mostly in the .308 Winchester, back in the 70s and 80s...

Blazing speed possible, accuracy, not so much, at blazing speed. Not bad at reduced speeds. Simply put, the 1-10" twist common to .30 rifles isn't the best for short bullets at high speed. Some rifles will group them fairly well, some won't, and its a pretty individual thing, depending on the gun and load.

Taking out a decent size woodchuck at a couple hundred yards? Possible. A coyote? do-able. A prairie dog at 300? Good Luck!

Some of the 110gr bullets are made for the .30 Carbine. Others are for other cartridges. If your .30 Carbine will feed them, the Speer 110gr "Varminter" is a very good slug. In a .308 or '06, if its not overdriven and the rifle shoots them well enough, they're very useful for things that don't deserve a 150gr+ big game bullet. And they do recoil a bit less, IF you don't load to max.

748 is a tad quick for highest velocities in the 06, but it will do fine if you're not reaching for the last possible FPS.

You might find both better accuracy and high speeds using a 125gr, the longer bullet will usually group a bit better in 1-10" twist barrels.

I was surprised at the recoil of max 125gr loads from a .308. Actually seemed sharper than firing 180s, to me.

jdoudna · June 9, 2019, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Personal experience with the Speer & Hornady 100gr plinkers and 110gr HP, mostly in the .308 Winchester, back in the 70s and 80s...

Blazing speed possible, accuracy, not so much, at blazing speed. Not bad at reduced speeds. Simply put, the 1-10" twist common to .30 rifles isn't the best for short bullets at high speed. Some rifles will group them fairly well, some won't, and its a pretty individual thing, depending on the gun and load.

Taking out a decent size woodchuck at a couple hundred yards? Possible. A coyote? do-able. A prairie dog at 300? Good Luck!

Some of the 110gr bullets are made for the .30 Carbine. Others are for other cartridges. If your .30 Carbine will feed them, the Speer 110gr "Varminter" is a very good slug. In a .308 or '06, if its not overdriven and the rifle shoots them well enough, they're very useful for things that don't deserve a 150gr+ big game bullet. And they do recoil a bit less, IF you don't load to max.

748 is a tad quick for highest velocities in the 06, but it will do fine if you're not reaching for the last possible FPS.

You might find both better accuracy and high speeds using a 125gr, the longer bullet will usually group a bit better in 1-10" twist barrels.

I was surprised at the recoil of max 125gr loads from a .308. Actually seemed sharper than firing 180s, to me.

My initial tests were with Sierra 110 gr. RN carbine bullets, and they definitely don't work in an '06 with a 1:10 twist. If pushed very hard, they just vaporized in mid flight. Then my focus turned to using Berger 115 gr. target bullets which could get me under 2" groups at 100 yds. I've tried Sierra 125 gr. bullets, but they did not do well at all. I've tried .308 and .311 diameter bullets since my bore slugs closer to .311, but the Berger .308 bullets have shot the best so far. It is very possible that 2" groups is the best achievable from my 1917 Enfield with the original barrel which has been shortened.

RC20 · June 9, 2019, 04:49 PM

You can add in some odd results as well with the reduced load H4895. Supposedly H4805 is tolerant of that (and it was listed).

I ran some and got major powder flash down the case.

I tried some H4350 and R17 and it was fine.

Curious if Quickload deals with the lower loads and the pressure spikes for some powder and the one versus another?

I am getting some good groups with the 125s. Keeping in mind, flat base bullet has a lot more exposed surface and its very close to as much as the ELD and or boat tailed up as high as 168 gr in 308.

Marco Califo · June 9, 2019, 09:07 PM

I have loaded the Sierra 110 gr Varminter in 308 at max 3300 fps using WC844. Great light bullet, accurate. The 110 gr FMJ is a 30 cal Carbine bullet. Loading it in a 30-06 and it can go 3400 fps. It is not designed for those speeds aerodynamically. Frankly, I do not believe you can vaporize a FMJ 110 projectile at published 30-06 velocities (<3500). I think your accuracy could be poor enough not to print on paper.
I have sent 223 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenades down range at 3900 fps and they thump 100 to 200 yard iron plates every time. I thought those flimsy bullets might vaporize but NOOO.

44AMP mentioned twist and he is right. The full size 30. cal rifles are designed for 150 - 180 grain bullets, typically around 1:10 twist. Light bullets for bore (i.e. 110 gr in 30 cal, or 40 gr 223), will stabile in a slower twist barrel. Faster spin is good for heavier bullets. and there are stability calculators like this one: http://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

RC20 · June 9, 2019, 10:39 PM

There is more to it than that. I ran calcs on two sites and what I got for a 125 gr bullet was 2000-3000 FPS had a factor of over 4.

Flat based bullets are a bit more forging so you should have the form at least if not the bullet (one had choices of a mfg, but they don't make bullets at 125 gr)

I was still at 1.5 listing VPS at 100 and that clearly is not going to work.

Marco Califo · June 9, 2019, 11:02 PM

I ran the load being discussed and got 5.078 at the published max ~3400.
I use the calculator to tell me 223 75gr at 2900 gives me a stable 1.4.
I do not know how to interpret those values for light-for-cartridge bullets.

I do like shooting Sierra Varminter 308 110 at high speeds.
I have no desire to purchase or load 308 110 FMJ. I might if I owned a M-1 Carbine. But, I wont because I have 3 223 (auto carbine, 2 bolt). 223 is much more versatile and effective than the M1 110 FMJ at 1900 FPS.

June 8, 2019, 10:10 AM	#2
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Everyone developing cartridge loads does not use the same objectives, conditions and standards. That includes velocity and pressure measuring systems as well as component lot numbers, rifle barrel, reloading tools and techniques. 110 grain bullets shoot max loads most accurate in 30-06 barrels with a 1:20 twist. Your barrel probably has a 1:10 twist. Reduced loads will shoot your 110's most accurate in my opinion. 30BR benchrest match loads shooting 112 grain bullets 3000 fps in 1:18 twist barrels are popular because they are most accurate so used. Last edited by Bart B.; June 8, 2019 at 10:31 AM.

June 8, 2019, 01:09 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...they did not do any tests..." That's entirely possible and highly probable. Suspect it has more to do with a 110 being a .30 Carbine bullet(Bart's 1 in 20 twist) and isn't really a .30 cal varmint bullet(not that it won't do nicely). Mind you, Hodgdon's site also says to use Magnum primers with magnum named cartridges, but not with other cartridges using the same powders. H110 and .30 Carbine vs .357 Mag for example. Anyway, the Win 748 Start load will be 47.4(Max minus 10%). If you don't get decent accuracy it's because your rifle doesn't like the powder/bullet combination. Having a keg is a good reason to use the powder, but not at the expense of accuracy. Try some IMR4064. Velocity is a bit higher too. "...data source list such vastly different loads..." All of 'em reflect the averages of tests done with the exact components, firearm, barrel length and atmospheric conditions of the day of the test. Hodgdon/Winchester, for example, used a 1 in 10 twist 24" barrel and a standard Winchester brand LR primer. "...58.0 grains going up to 62.0 grains..." That's for a TMJ. Still kind of hot and inconsistent though. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 8, 2019, 06:25 PM	#6
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Gee, for a 110gr 30 caliber bullet only being for the 30 Carbine, Hornady makes a V-Max and SP, and Sierra make a SPRN, FMJ Pro Hunter, and a HP Varmint Master. Jdoudna, I can run things through Quick Load for you to give you a place to start. PM me with which bullet and COAL. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

June 9, 2019, 02:38 AM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Personal experience with the Speer & Hornady 100gr plinkers and 110gr HP, mostly in the .308 Winchester, back in the 70s and 80s... Blazing speed possible, accuracy, not so much, at blazing speed. Not bad at reduced speeds. Simply put, the 1-10" twist common to .30 rifles isn't the best for short bullets at high speed. Some rifles will group them fairly well, some won't, and its a pretty individual thing, depending on the gun and load. Taking out a decent size woodchuck at a couple hundred yards? Possible. A coyote? do-able. A prairie dog at 300? Good Luck! Some of the 110gr bullets are made for the .30 Carbine. Others are for other cartridges. If your .30 Carbine will feed them, the Speer 110gr "Varminter" is a very good slug. In a .308 or '06, if its not overdriven and the rifle shoots them well enough, they're very useful for things that don't deserve a 150gr+ big game bullet. And they do recoil a bit less, IF you don't load to max. 748 is a tad quick for highest velocities in the 06, but it will do fine if you're not reaching for the last possible FPS. You might find both better accuracy and high speeds using a 125gr, the longer bullet will usually group a bit better in 1-10" twist barrels. I was surprised at the recoil of max 125gr loads from a .308. Actually seemed sharper than firing 180s, to me. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 9, 2019, 09:07 PM	#13
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	I have loaded the Sierra 110 gr Varminter in 308 at max 3300 fps using WC844. Great light bullet, accurate. The 110 gr FMJ is a 30 cal Carbine bullet. Loading it in a 30-06 and it can go 3400 fps. It is not designed for those speeds aerodynamically. Frankly, I do not believe you can vaporize a FMJ 110 projectile at published 30-06 velocities (<3500). I think your accuracy could be poor enough not to print on paper. I have sent 223 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenades down range at 3900 fps and they thump 100 to 200 yard iron plates every time. I thought those flimsy bullets might vaporize but NOOO. 44AMP mentioned twist and he is right. The full size 30. cal rifles are designed for 150 - 180 grain bullets, typically around 1:10 twist. Light bullets for bore (i.e. 110 gr in 30 cal, or 40 gr 223), will stabile in a slower twist barrel. Faster spin is good for heavier bullets. and there are stability calculators like this one: http://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; June 9, 2019 at 09:21 PM.

June 8, 2019, 09:01 AM	#1
jdoudna Junior Member Join Date: November 1, 2018 Location: Fredericksburg, TX Posts: 11	Win 748, 110 gr. Bullet Loads for 30-06 I've been working on developing 110 gr. bullet loads for my 30-06 with a 22" barrel for hunting large varmints. I've been focusing on using Win 748 since I have 8 lbs. of the stuff, it is usable in 3 different cartridges I shoot, and meters perfectly through my powder measure. I was relying on Hodgdon's data which only lists a max load. I started lower and worked up to their max without very good results. After doing some more research, I found some confusing information for Win 748. The Hodgdon load is essentially identical to the load in a 50 year-old Winchester ball power pamphlet. The fact that Hodgdon only listed a max load leads me to believe that they did not do any tests after taking over the Winchester ball powder line, but merely regurgitated old Winchester data. I just bought a Lyman 50th edition manual, and it lists vastly different loadings for this powder/bullet combination. Lyman suggests starting at 51.0 grains and goes up to 60.0 grains. Further research lead me to Speer's online data, and they show loading starting at 58.0 grains going up to 62.0 grains. I find it rather disconcerting that 3 loading data source list such vastly different loads for Win 748, so I'm confused as to what's valid. If Lyman and Speer data is good, it would suggest I may not have been driving the bullets fast enough to find the 'sweet spot' for my rifle. Does anyone out there have info on what would be the max load of Win 748 for a 30-06 driving a 110 gr. bullet?

June 8, 2019, 10:57 AM	#3
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Hodgen is still publicizing some of the older Win data, and has been for some time. Alot of older data is carried through in current reloading manuals. Some of newer cartridges in Hodgen manuals have newer data for the Win powders. Personally would like it if they retested the 748 loads in several cartridges.

June 8, 2019, 12:32 PM	#4
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	The data you posted is a little high if I look back to the Speer #12 Edition which, for Win 748 reflects 44.5 grains to 48.5 grains under a 110 grain Varminter JHP bullet. They seem to want to keep the velocity below 2,000 FPS for that bullet. I can understand that Win 748 meters well but most ball powders do meter well as compared to stick powders. You don't mention what primer you are using but you may want to try using a a magnum type primer since you are loading using the Lyman data which my Lyman 49th Edition suggest what you mentioned, start at 51 grains with a max load of 60 grains for a 110 grain JHP bullet. Using a magnum primer with that much powder may give better ignition results. Personally when I did try the real light 110 grain bullets in my 1:10 twist 30-06 barrels I never had much luck. I finally just assumed what Bart mentions above as I needed more velocity and as I pushed velocity up for accuracy I lost what I was after because my 1:10 twist barrels would not stabilize the light 30-06 bullets. Ron

June 9, 2019, 01:15 AM	#7
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	I played with hornady 110 spire point varmint bullets (not .30 carbine projectiles, no idea what that assertion is based on) in my 300 win mag and never could get much for groups. The 10 twist is the problem. Got em around 3800 fps with imr 4350. 4 inch groups at 100. No good for any field use but they were a novelty load to begin with. The vaporization of a rotten pineapple, a rotten watermelon, some pumpkins, water jugs, and frost bitten zucchini was extremely gratifying and exactly what I was after.

June 9, 2019, 01:44 AM	#8
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	Don’t forget about the nosler 110 varmageddon too! And the Barnes 110 tac-tx.

June 9, 2019, 01:47 AM	#9
Roadkill2228 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2014 Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan Posts: 311	Also, for the record...Bart b. If you ever write a book on all your findings, experiences, and general but less than common knowledge about ballistics I’d want to read it. Always enjoy your posts, usually learn something new or am provided with food for thought anyways.

June 9, 2019, 04:49 PM	#12
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	You can add in some odd results as well with the reduced load H4895. Supposedly H4805 is tolerant of that (and it was listed). I ran some and got major powder flash down the case. I tried some H4350 and R17 and it was fine. Curious if Quickload deals with the lower loads and the pressure spikes for some powder and the one versus another? I am getting some good groups with the 125s. Keeping in mind, flat base bullet has a lot more exposed surface and its very close to as much as the ELD and or boat tailed up as high as 168 gr in 308. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

June 9, 2019, 10:39 PM	#14
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	There is more to it than that. I ran calcs on two sites and what I got for a 125 gr bullet was 2000-3000 FPS had a factor of over 4. Flat based bullets are a bit more forging so you should have the form at least if not the bullet (one had choices of a mfg, but they don't make bullets at 125 gr) I was still at 1.5 listing VPS at 100 and that clearly is not going to work. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

June 9, 2019, 11:02 PM	#15
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	I ran the load being discussed and got 5.078 at the published max ~3400. I use the calculator to tell me 223 75gr at 2900 gives me a stable 1.4. I do not know how to interpret those values for light-for-cartridge bullets. I do like shooting Sierra Varminter 308 110 at high speeds. I have no desire to purchase or load 308 110 FMJ. I might if I owned a M-1 Carbine. But, I wont because I have 3 223 (auto carbine, 2 bolt). 223 is much more versatile and effective than the M1 110 FMJ at 1900 FPS. __________________ ............ Last edited by Marco Califo; June 9, 2019 at 11:10 PM.