IMR 4227 in .357 mag Very Dirty?

wrightme43 · August 19, 2013, 08:22 PM

Ok here is the data I have for you. IMR 4227 (1041113) 4489 Lot. New shipment to my L.G.S.
Loaded per Hornady manual
#35710 HP-XTP 125 grain
14.8 grains of IMR 4227
CCI small pistol primer.
C.O.L 1.585 w. light crimp.
I used Lee 3 die set for .38 special, and .357 magnum.
I do not yet have the Lee factory crimp carbide die.
I loaded and shot 50 rounds. I liked the accuracy. I liked the low amount of recoil.
I was absolutely amazed at the amount of burnt powder grains rolling around on the table. After firing a round I could roll the gun downward and burnt powder would fall out on the table. The gun was just grungy with it. I spent a long time scrubbing with powder blast and a toothbrush just to get it removed but the cyl, top strap and around the forcing cone are still blackened.

Is this normal with this powder?
Could my crimp of been to light, would that cause this?
Is my load just to light? The Lee manual calls out, 18 grains Compressed as a starting load for Hogdon 4227 (which I understand is now what the IMR 4227 is) PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM WRONG HERE (warning I am not sure this is the truth so don't go acting on it)
Towards the end of the 50 rounds I could feel the powder gumming up the works.
The Hornady Manual calls out 17.9 grains as a Never Excede load, though it is less than Lee's starting load.
Any Input would be appreciated.
Steve

buck460XVR · August 19, 2013, 09:01 PM

That is a very light load for IMR4227 with a 125 gr bullet. Most all powders burn "dirty" when used at the lower end of their parameter.

olddav · August 19, 2013, 10:22 PM

I see the same thing with my 44 mag using IMR 4227, but I can live with it.

chiefr · August 20, 2013, 08:56 AM

I too have had this problem many years ago when using 4227. Mag primers helped somewhat. Because of unburnt powder issues, I quit using 4227 and went to 2400.

buck460XVR · August 20, 2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wrightme43:
I liked the accuracy.

One of IMR4227's attributes. To me it outweighs the little bit of unburned powder residue I get. I'm bettin' if you increase your load some, you will see the amount of unburned powder diminish. Like most all slow burning powders, it also prefers a heavy crimp.

Hammerhead · August 20, 2013, 01:06 PM

That's an awfully slow powder for light bullets in the .357.
Magnum primers and a firm roll or profile crimp would help. If you're going to buy a crimping die, get the Redding profile crimp.

If you're looking for a load that's a little less than 'magnum', try HS-6 or SR-4756.

IMO 4227 is for max charges with heavy bullets.

Real Gun · August 20, 2013, 06:54 PM

I think you should use magnum primers with IMR 4227. However, that load is way below Hodgdon's 18.0 gr minimum.

If you want a softer load, try my favorite of 6.0 gr SR4756, which I discovered as suitable for my SP101 with 125 gr XTPs.

I use heavier bullets with serious magnum loads that I shoot in the GP100 5". There I might try full up IMR 4227.

zxcvbob · August 20, 2013, 07:19 PM

What exactly are you trying to load? Something that duplicates factory ammo? Something less than that? And why did you pick 4227? Do you have any other powders available?

All powders burn dirty when you load them down too far -- and even more-so with light bullets. I think that's what's happening here.

wrightme43 · August 20, 2013, 09:31 PM

Thank you all for your replies.
I went with 4227 because it was there, and my books said it would work. LOL
This is my first time reloading for pistol, and I started reloading for .308 earlier this year.
My wants for my .357 is accuracy, without a lot of kick. I will build up closer to max, after buying a nice factory crimp die and see what happens.
If it is still too dirty, I will give it to my friend that reloads .22 hornet.

Now here is another point of info for you all. My friend has a old bottle of IMR 4227, he says it is a round ball powder. My bottle of IMR 4227 is new and made in Austraila. It looks like very very short cut extruded stick powder. I believe they changed it to what H4227 was. Is this right?

Real Gun · August 21, 2013, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Now here is another point of info for you all. My friend has a old bottle of IMR 4227, he says it is a round ball powder. My bottle of IMR 4227 is new and made in Austraila. It looks like very very short cut extruded stick powder. I believe they changed it to what H4227 was. Is this right?

That is my understanding, and the whole story can be found in a search on "H4227 powder". Use H4227 loads with caution, working up from the (published) low end as per SOP. Use IMR 4227 according to Hodgdon's published loads for that product ID. Older IMR4227 is the discontinued stuff.

Australia is the secondary source for current IMR 4227, same formula.

AlaskaMike · August 21, 2013, 06:35 PM

My metal can IMR 4227 is short extruded stick powder--definitely not spherical.

August 19, 2013, 08:22 PM	#1
wrightme43 Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Location: Bowling Green KY Posts: 37	IMR 4227 in .357 mag Very Dirty? Ok here is the data I have for you. IMR 4227 (1041113) 4489 Lot. New shipment to my L.G.S. Loaded per Hornady manual #35710 HP-XTP 125 grain 14.8 grains of IMR 4227 CCI small pistol primer. C.O.L 1.585 w. light crimp. I used Lee 3 die set for .38 special, and .357 magnum. I do not yet have the Lee factory crimp carbide die. I loaded and shot 50 rounds. I liked the accuracy. I liked the low amount of recoil. I was absolutely amazed at the amount of burnt powder grains rolling around on the table. After firing a round I could roll the gun downward and burnt powder would fall out on the table. The gun was just grungy with it. I spent a long time scrubbing with powder blast and a toothbrush just to get it removed but the cyl, top strap and around the forcing cone are still blackened. Is this normal with this powder? Could my crimp of been to light, would that cause this? Is my load just to light? The Lee manual calls out, 18 grains Compressed as a starting load for Hogdon 4227 (which I understand is now what the IMR 4227 is) PLEASE TELL ME IF I AM WRONG HERE (warning I am not sure this is the truth so don't go acting on it) Towards the end of the 50 rounds I could feel the powder gumming up the works. The Hornady Manual calls out 17.9 grains as a Never Excede load, though it is less than Lee's starting load. Any Input would be appreciated. Steve __________________ “Must be yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

August 20, 2013, 07:19 PM	#8
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	What exactly are you trying to load? Something that duplicates factory ammo? Something less than that? And why did you pick 4227? Do you have any other powders available? All powders burn dirty when you load them down too far -- and even more-so with light bullets. I think that's what's happening here. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

August 20, 2013, 09:31 PM	#9
wrightme43 Member Join Date: January 5, 2013 Location: Bowling Green KY Posts: 37	Thank you all for your replies. I went with 4227 because it was there, and my books said it would work. LOL This is my first time reloading for pistol, and I started reloading for .308 earlier this year. My wants for my .357 is accuracy, without a lot of kick. I will build up closer to max, after buying a nice factory crimp die and see what happens. If it is still too dirty, I will give it to my friend that reloads .22 hornet. Now here is another point of info for you all. My friend has a old bottle of IMR 4227, he says it is a round ball powder. My bottle of IMR 4227 is new and made in Austraila. It looks like very very short cut extruded stick powder. I believe they changed it to what H4227 was. Is this right? __________________ “Must be yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

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August 19, 2013, 09:01 PM	#2
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	That is a very light load for IMR4227 with a 125 gr bullet. Most all powders burn "dirty" when used at the lower end of their parameter.

August 19, 2013, 10:22 PM	#3
olddav Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Lower Alabama Posts: 727	I see the same thing with my 44 mag using IMR 4227, but I can live with it. __________________ Never beat your head against the wall with out a helmet

August 20, 2013, 08:56 AM	#4
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I too have had this problem many years ago when using 4227. Mag primers helped somewhat. Because of unburnt powder issues, I quit using 4227 and went to 2400.

August 20, 2013, 01:06 PM	#6
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	That's an awfully slow powder for light bullets in the .357. Magnum primers and a firm roll or profile crimp would help. If you're going to buy a crimping die, get the Redding profile crimp. If you're looking for a load that's a little less than 'magnum', try HS-6 or SR-4756. IMO 4227 is for max charges with heavy bullets.

August 20, 2013, 06:54 PM	#7
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	I think you should use magnum primers with IMR 4227. However, that load is way below Hodgdon's 18.0 gr minimum. If you want a softer load, try my favorite of 6.0 gr SR4756, which I discovered as suitable for my SP101 with 125 gr XTPs. I use heavier bullets with serious magnum loads that I shoot in the GP100 5". There I might try full up IMR 4227.

August 21, 2013, 06:35 PM	#11
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	My metal can IMR 4227 is short extruded stick powder--definitely not spherical.