.223 and pistol powders

skizzums · September 23, 2014, 01:21 PM

hey guys, I see a lot of people touting pistol powders in .223, most for lead and sub-sonic use. has anybody played with? know any velocities? I hear trail boss, unique and titegroup being used most. just thought maybe it would be worth playing around with for short range plinking, that would save a TON of powder.

849ACSO · September 23, 2014, 03:25 PM

I have only messed with blue dot and reduced velocity .223 loads with 40 grain bullets. Back when .22LR rounds were made from unobtanium, I still wanted to squirrel hunt (and have something left to eat). A blue dot loaded 40 grain bullet at about 1000 fps fit that bill just fine.

I have heard rumors of folks messing with other pistol powders in rifles, but I have had no need.

Jim243 · September 23, 2014, 08:55 PM

Guys, these are shotgun powders that can be used for shotgun, rifle and pistol.

Pistol powders are generally ball powder not flake.

Jim

Sevens · September 23, 2014, 10:32 PM

Jim, you're splitting hairs... or maybe you're splitting spherical powder balls in to flat flakes!

Bullseye may be the original pistol powder of all of them. It's a flake powder. Unique can do anything that's ever had the ability to be flung as a result of burning smokeless powder and it's a flake powder. Unique may be known to some as a shotgun powder... but a whole generation of handloaders have made Unique their "GO TO" pistol powder for decades.

To the subject, I'd keep in mind what you actually gain and what you give up to get that savings. Even with powder perhaps at an all-time high, it still pales in comparison to what I'm spending on bullets. If I just throw out a "known" acceptable ballpark charge weight for .223, 25.0 grains will work. That's 280 loaded rounds in a pound of powder. That's cheaper than bullets unless you're running lead slugs that you cast yourself or you have some slick swaging setup & your squeezing out home-brew jacketed bullets. If you run a different powder, you can lop some of that charge weight off, too. (look at H-4198 for example)

If you're going to run .223 with pistol powders, your velocity is GONE. Your ability to run a gas-op semi-auto is gone also. If these are not dealbreakers, then you're still in business... but be warned, your point of aim is likely to be radically different than with ammo built to 'normal' spec. So now you're either making quite a sight adjustment or you're going to set up a firearm to run this pistol powder-powered ammo exclusively.

If all of that has been considered, then I suppose it -IS- time to try making some of it up. Report back!

skizzums · September 23, 2014, 10:50 PM

titegroup is the one I have read most about. the have data on hodgon's, but only 3gr for a subsonic load at only 4kpsi. I have read on a couple places of guys running 8 and 9gr with functionality in an AR(adjustable gas). I would need quikload data before I was willing to try though. I do have plenty of titegroup

I didn't know TG was a shotgun powder

harrelson · September 30, 2014, 11:55 AM

I have seen load data for clays and 55gr cast boolits. That won't cycle A AR but are quite to shoot

Rambozo2 · October 8, 2018, 04:59 PM

I’ve been reading all the posts about the pistol powders and there’s no reason to use pistol powder in a 223/556 Unless it’s a Pistol short barrel no one has mentioned that. I just loaded H110 haven’t shot it yet ill be trying it tomorrow in an 8.5 inch AR Pistol. 15 grains

Dufus · October 8, 2018, 05:37 PM

For me, Red Dot is "unique". It works in everything. I have 3 lbs on hand and at the load levels that I use, it lasts a long time.

Do some research for yourself and don't rely on an internet stranger to tell you what to do with it.

Red Dot is absolutely very universal....damn, another pun.

All I can say more is, try it, you'll like it.

BBarn · October 8, 2018, 05:45 PM

Get a copy of a Lyman manual. I'm not sure about the 50th edition, but both the 49th edition and the Cast Bullet handbook had (have) cast bullet data using some pistol/shotgun/fast rifle powders. I didn't see any Clays or Titegroup loads, but there were some with Red Dot, Unique, and a handful of other currently available powders.

Velocities with the Lyman cast bullet data start at about 1700 fps. Nothing subsonic in the 49th edition or the cast bullet handbook. I don't know what's in the 50th edition. Also keep in mind that the Lyman loads have been pressure tested, something other data from unknown sources may lack.

EDIT: BTW Dufus is right about Red Dot. While it doesn't produce quite the velocity that Unique will in many instances, I find it cleaner, and it seems to throw better from my powder measures. Red Dot has a lot going for it. I prefer it to Bullseye or Unique.

BBarn · October 8, 2018, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambozo2

I’ve been reading all the posts about the pistol powders and there’s no reason to use pistol powder in a 223/556 Unless it’s a Pistol short barrel no one has mentioned that. I just loaded H110 haven’t shot it yet ill be trying it tomorrow in an 8.5 inch AR Pistol. 15 grains

Has a 15gr. load of H110 been pressure tested in the 223? I don't recall ever seeing a 223 load using H110. Don't use such a load if it hasn't been pressure tested. And if you do find pressure tested data, make sure you use the same bullet construction as the specified load (don't substitute cast for jacketed or vice versa).

Sevens · October 9, 2018, 01:27 AM

If you guys are so in love with Red Dot, why aren't you buying Promo?

You could probably drip some red ink in the jug if that's the attraction.

Dufus · October 9, 2018, 01:55 AM

Quote:

If you guys are so in love with Red Dot, why aren't you buying Promo?

Mainly because we ARE so in love with Red Dot.

Chainsaw. · October 9, 2018, 09:43 AM

I have loaded 223 with 40 grain bullets and a SMALL charge of tite group. It was an interesting experiment but no real practical application for me. It was how ever very quiet and perfectly accurate. If you have a use, or eve just a curiosity for it, give it a whirl, just please be cautious and use your head. To much pistol powder in a rifle case could have serious consequences.

David R · October 9, 2018, 10:09 AM

I have been doing it for a long time.
First I was shooting Cast Bullets in my 222 with 8 grains of unique. This gave me about 1600 fps. Then I quit casting and tried a 40 grain blitz. It worked just as well.

Look in the lyman handbook. It lists lots of loads for cast. That is where I found the load above. I shoot them in a 222 over 20 gauge gun. Its a fantastic squirrel load. 55 grain bullets keyhole. They never stabilize, not enough oomph. I went with the 40 grain hornet bullets for expansion. My sights are adjusted for the light load. I was getting 1.5" @ 50 yards with the cast bullets. It went all to hell @ 100. I am using a peep sight, so anything after 25 yards, I can't see.

Look up Ed harris "The Load" Its even Red Dot!

I just bought my second 8 lb jug of Promo. I only use it in pistol.

David

huntinaz · October 9, 2018, 11:33 AM

I have used Blue Dot to load 40gr V-Max in a bolt gun for predators. It's great, accuracy is good and you can load from 22 Hornet velocities to 221 Fireball velocities to higher (low 223 velocities if I remember correctly without looking). Seafire at 24hourcampfire chronoed 40gr V-Max at 3375 with Blue Dot.

I stayed in the ~10gr range for an estimated velocity of ~2700 and this was too much, it did NOT save fox pelts. Accuracy was as good as anything else the rifle has produced, it's quiet as a 22 Hornet, won't cycle an AR action but awesome for a bolt gun. I consider it to have made my bolt gun very versatile and loading reduced 223 is easier and cheaper than loading for a 22 Hornet or Fireball.

I'm going to try 50gr soft point at Hornet velocities next for pelts on fox and bobcat.

Here's a reference,

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...6/223_Blue_Dot

Sevens · October 9, 2018, 04:30 PM

Promo by weight (not volume) uses Red Dot load data. That comes from the ballisticians at Alliant. So if you use Red Dot, and so much Red Dot because you love it... why not save a good bit of cash and buy Promo?

Dufus · October 9, 2018, 04:36 PM

I stated above that I have 3 lbs of Red Dot on hand now.

I do not have any Promo.

Why spend cash on something that I don't need??

Marco Califo · October 9, 2018, 10:19 PM

From: http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php

Cartridge Bullet Weight in Grains Bullet Powder Max Charge (gn) Max Velocity
223 Remington 45 Lyman #225438 45gr Unique 7.5 2169
223 Remington 50 Lyman #225415 50gr Unique 7.5 2227
223 Remington 55 RCBS 25-055-FN 55gr Unique 8.5 2045
223 Remington 57 RCBS 22-005-FN 57gr Unique 8.5 2158
223 Remington 58 Lyman #225462 58gr Unique 7.5 2008

I have not used any of this data yet, but plan to with some light 223 jacket bullets like the Speer 46 gr flat point. They have similar loads using Red and Green Dot along with other pistol powders.

The Lyman #44 c. 1967 has the 7.5 gr Unique loads over 2000 fps for the same weight range, but not the RCBS Cast 8.5 gr loads.

September 23, 2014, 01:21 PM	#1
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	.223 and pistol powders hey guys, I see a lot of people touting pistol powders in .223, most for lead and sub-sonic use. has anybody played with? know any velocities? I hear trail boss, unique and titegroup being used most. just thought maybe it would be worth playing around with for short range plinking, that would save a TON of powder. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

September 23, 2014, 08:55 PM	#3
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Guys, these are shotgun powders that can be used for shotgun, rifle and pistol. Pistol powders are generally ball powder not flake. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

September 23, 2014, 10:50 PM	#5
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	titegroup is the one I have read most about. the have data on hodgon's, but only 3gr for a subsonic load at only 4kpsi. I have read on a couple places of guys running 8 and 9gr with functionality in an AR(adjustable gas). I would need quikload data before I was willing to try though. I do have plenty of titegroup I didn't know TG was a shotgun powder __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

October 8, 2018, 04:59 PM	#7
Rambozo2 Junior Member Join Date: October 8, 2013 Posts: 1	223 Pistol I’ve been reading all the posts about the pistol powders and there’s no reason to use pistol powder in a 223/556 Unless it’s a Pistol short barrel no one has mentioned that. I just loaded H110 haven’t shot it yet ill be trying it tomorrow in an 8.5 inch AR Pistol. 15 grains

October 8, 2018, 05:45 PM	#9
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Get a copy of a Lyman manual. I'm not sure about the 50th edition, but both the 49th edition and the Cast Bullet handbook had (have) cast bullet data using some pistol/shotgun/fast rifle powders. I didn't see any Clays or Titegroup loads, but there were some with Red Dot, Unique, and a handful of other currently available powders. Velocities with the Lyman cast bullet data start at about 1700 fps. Nothing subsonic in the 49th edition or the cast bullet handbook. I don't know what's in the 50th edition. Also keep in mind that the Lyman loads have been pressure tested, something other data from unknown sources may lack. EDIT: BTW Dufus is right about Red Dot. While it doesn't produce quite the velocity that Unique will in many instances, I find it cleaner, and it seems to throw better from my powder measures. Red Dot has a lot going for it. I prefer it to Bullseye or Unique. Last edited by BBarn; October 8, 2018 at 05:50 PM.

September 23, 2014, 03:25 PM	#2
849ACSO Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2014 Location: Somewhere in the middle Posts: 629	I have only messed with blue dot and reduced velocity .223 loads with 40 grain bullets. Back when .22LR rounds were made from unobtanium, I still wanted to squirrel hunt (and have something left to eat). A blue dot loaded 40 grain bullet at about 1000 fps fit that bill just fine. I have heard rumors of folks messing with other pistol powders in rifles, but I have had no need. __________________ "The day you stop learning SHOULD directly coincide with the day you stop breathing."

September 23, 2014, 10:32 PM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Jim, you're splitting hairs... or maybe you're splitting spherical powder balls in to flat flakes! Bullseye may be the original pistol powder of all of them. It's a flake powder. Unique can do anything that's ever had the ability to be flung as a result of burning smokeless powder and it's a flake powder. Unique may be known to some as a shotgun powder... but a whole generation of handloaders have made Unique their "GO TO" pistol powder for decades. To the subject, I'd keep in mind what you actually gain and what you give up to get that savings. Even with powder perhaps at an all-time high, it still pales in comparison to what I'm spending on bullets. If I just throw out a "known" acceptable ballpark charge weight for .223, 25.0 grains will work. That's 280 loaded rounds in a pound of powder. That's cheaper than bullets unless you're running lead slugs that you cast yourself or you have some slick swaging setup & your squeezing out home-brew jacketed bullets. If you run a different powder, you can lop some of that charge weight off, too. (look at H-4198 for example) If you're going to run .223 with pistol powders, your velocity is GONE. Your ability to run a gas-op semi-auto is gone also. If these are not dealbreakers, then you're still in business... but be warned, your point of aim is likely to be radically different than with ammo built to 'normal' spec. So now you're either making quite a sight adjustment or you're going to set up a firearm to run this pistol powder-powered ammo exclusively. If all of that has been considered, then I suppose it -IS- time to try making some of it up. Report back! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 30, 2014, 11:55 AM	#6
harrelson Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2013 Posts: 1	I have seen load data for clays and 55gr cast boolits. That won't cycle A AR but are quite to shoot

October 8, 2018, 05:37 PM	#8
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	For me, Red Dot is "unique". It works in everything. I have 3 lbs on hand and at the load levels that I use, it lasts a long time. Do some research for yourself and don't rely on an internet stranger to tell you what to do with it. Red Dot is absolutely very universal....damn, another pun. All I can say more is, try it, you'll like it.

October 9, 2018, 01:27 AM	#11
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If you guys are so in love with Red Dot, why aren't you buying Promo? You could probably drip some red ink in the jug if that's the attraction. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 9, 2018, 09:43 AM	#13
Chainsaw. Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2015 Location: Issaquah WA. Its a dry rain. Posts: 1,774	I have loaded 223 with 40 grain bullets and a SMALL charge of tite group. It was an interesting experiment but no real practical application for me. It was how ever very quiet and perfectly accurate. If you have a use, or eve just a curiosity for it, give it a whirl, just please be cautious and use your head. To much pistol powder in a rifle case could have serious consequences. __________________ Just shoot the damn thing.

October 9, 2018, 10:09 AM	#14
David R Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2015 Location: The swamps of WNY Posts: 753	I have been doing it for a long time. First I was shooting Cast Bullets in my 222 with 8 grains of unique. This gave me about 1600 fps. Then I quit casting and tried a 40 grain blitz. It worked just as well. Look in the lyman handbook. It lists lots of loads for cast. That is where I found the load above. I shoot them in a 222 over 20 gauge gun. Its a fantastic squirrel load. 55 grain bullets keyhole. They never stabilize, not enough oomph. I went with the 40 grain hornet bullets for expansion. My sights are adjusted for the light load. I was getting 1.5" @ 50 yards with the cast bullets. It went all to hell @ 100. I am using a peep sight, so anything after 25 yards, I can't see. Look up Ed harris "The Load" Its even Red Dot! I just bought my second 8 lb jug of Promo. I only use it in pistol. David

October 9, 2018, 11:33 AM	#15
huntinaz Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2010 Location: az Posts: 1,332	I have used Blue Dot to load 40gr V-Max in a bolt gun for predators. It's great, accuracy is good and you can load from 22 Hornet velocities to 221 Fireball velocities to higher (low 223 velocities if I remember correctly without looking). Seafire at 24hourcampfire chronoed 40gr V-Max at 3375 with Blue Dot. I stayed in the ~10gr range for an estimated velocity of ~2700 and this was too much, it did NOT save fox pelts. Accuracy was as good as anything else the rifle has produced, it's quiet as a 22 Hornet, won't cycle an AR action but awesome for a bolt gun. I consider it to have made my bolt gun very versatile and loading reduced 223 is easier and cheaper than loading for a 22 Hornet or Fireball. I'm going to try 50gr soft point at Hornet velocities next for pelts on fox and bobcat. Here's a reference, CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...6/223_Blue_Dot __________________ "When there’s lead in the air, there’s hope in the heart”- Hunter’s Proverb "Feed me, or feed me to something. I just want to be part of the food chain." -Al Bundy

October 9, 2018, 04:30 PM	#16
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Promo by weight (not volume) uses Red Dot load data. That comes from the ballisticians at Alliant. So if you use Red Dot, and so much Red Dot because you love it... why not save a good bit of cash and buy Promo? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 9, 2018, 04:36 PM	#17
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	I stated above that I have 3 lbs of Red Dot on hand now. I do not have any Promo. Why spend cash on something that I don't need??

October 9, 2018, 10:19 PM	#18
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Load Data From: http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php Cartridge Bullet Weight in Grains Bullet Powder Max Charge (gn) Max Velocity 223 Remington 45 Lyman #225438 45gr Unique 7.5 2169 223 Remington 50 Lyman #225415 50gr Unique 7.5 2227 223 Remington 55 RCBS 25-055-FN 55gr Unique 8.5 2045 223 Remington 57 RCBS 22-005-FN 57gr Unique 8.5 2158 223 Remington 58 Lyman #225462 58gr Unique 7.5 2008 I have not used any of this data yet, but plan to with some light 223 jacket bullets like the Speer 46 gr flat point. They have similar loads using Red and Green Dot along with other pistol powders. The Lyman #44 c. 1967 has the 7.5 gr Unique loads over 2000 fps for the same weight range, but not the RCBS Cast 8.5 gr loads. __________________ ............