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November 19, 2014, 08:59 PM | #26 | |
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November 19, 2014, 09:12 PM | #27 | |
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I would in fact be happy to find a good reason why my conclusions are wrong. I'm with a group teaching an monthly NRA Basic Handgun class. We supply the guns and ammunition. From time to time a foreign national on a student visa (or other non-immigrant visa) would like to take the class. We'd like to be able to accommodate him/her, but don't see how we could do so legally. If we had solid grounds for concluding it would be lawful, we'd be happy. But none of us are interested in exposing ourselves to potential federal criminal liability.
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November 19, 2014, 10:00 PM | #28 |
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It seems to my lay eye that attending a designated shooting range is a "sporting purpose" exemption under y 2 A above which says "admitted to the United States for lawful hunting OR sporting purposes".
Otherwise the Canadians shooting alongside my friend in Phoenix last week should not have been allowed to compete. Not to mention the Japanese taking shooting vacations to the USA. Etc., etc. Last edited by Jim Watson; November 19, 2014 at 10:05 PM. |
November 19, 2014, 10:15 PM | #29 | |
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As far as the Japanese shooting vacations, I used to see quite a few of visiting Japanese groups at the range. I haven't seen one for a long time.
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November 19, 2014, 10:32 PM | #30 | |
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As Frank says, I can find no way around the prohibition. It appears we've all been breaking the law the whole time. I'm also going to lose some business (and some goodwill--teaching tourists is fun!) over this. However, it beats the alternative. The reason we haven't seen clampdowns on it is that it's probably beneath the notice of law enforcement. I wouldn't want to be the test case, though.
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November 20, 2014, 03:17 PM | #31 | |
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November 20, 2014, 03:25 PM | #32 |
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So, a visiting foreigner has to state in his papers the purpose of his visit?
And if he does not put "shooting sports", he can't legally go shooting, right? |
November 20, 2014, 04:10 PM | #33 | |
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Others may do as they wish, but we feel that we have too much personally at stake.
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November 20, 2014, 10:25 PM | #34 | |
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November 21, 2014, 09:20 AM | #35 | |
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I always wondered if they even listen to the answers after that?
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November 21, 2014, 10:20 AM | #36 |
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Why wouldn't they be able to rent a gun at a range?
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November 21, 2014, 11:24 AM | #37 | |
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November 21, 2014, 10:03 PM | #38 |
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Who's to say that the person coming to the US to shoot at Battlefield Vegas or take a Frank Ettin class isn't doing it to fulfill a bucket list item of shooting firearms at a shooting range and then using them for sporting purposes? It seems to me that taking an involved shooting class or shooting firearms at a target on a controlled range would both constitute sporting purposes. Is there any case law on this?
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November 21, 2014, 10:33 PM | #39 | |||
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November 21, 2014, 10:54 PM | #40 |
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Further Complications
However, in doing some more research in response to Dakota Potts' post, I found some information that makes things more complicated.
The statutes I cited prohibit possession of guns or ammunition by aliens admitted present in the United States on a non-immigrant visa. Apparently there is a program under which a foreign national from one of a number of participating countries my enter the United States for a limited period of time without a visa. Apparently ATF has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012. I just stumbled on it since it doesn't seem to have been incorporated in the regulations of the ATF (or if it has, I missed it). It looks like the Visa Waiver program applies to visitor from most European countries, several Asian countries, and one South American country. It doesn't include any Middle Eastern or African countries. The requirements for a visa are waived only for visits for business or pleasure not to exceed 90 days. As far as I can see all this does for us in make it that much more difficult to know whether you can let a foreigner shoot your gun without your risking federal prison. I think, to make things manageable, I'd still insist on seeing a hunting license.
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November 22, 2014, 02:56 PM | #41 |
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There is a similar and possibly broader visa exemption for visitors from Canada, who (to paraphrase the U.S. Department of State) do NOT require visitor, business, transit or other visas to enter the United States under almost all circumstances.
However, exceptions DO exist, notably for Canadians entering the USA for work, those with criminal histories, and to U.S. citizens' spouses, fiances, and children who enter pursuant to gaining lawful permanent residency: http://canada.usembassy.gov/visas/in...ing-visas.html A particularly notable visa requirement exists for a Canadian with a criminal history, who- as I interpret the State Dept. page- is immediately required to have a special visa upon discovery of the person's record by U.S. authorities, even if the person is already in the United States (a situation which would presumably result in deportation order in many cases). Furthermore, this requirement applies to drunk driving convictions AND to convictions for which a pardon has been issued by Canadian authorities: http://canada.usembassy.gov/visas/vi...igibility.html The bottom line is that, as with the visa waiver program discussed by Frank, there are enough conditions under which a nonimmigrant Canadian would require a visa that IMHO it's arguably still advisable for a public shooting range or other public organization to insist on seeing a hunting license.
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November 22, 2014, 03:35 PM | #42 |
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Wow, what a can o' worms I inadvertently opened with a "simple" question.
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November 23, 2014, 02:31 AM | #43 |
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And this whole legislative complexity illustrates (as if we needed more examples) the unintended consequences of overly complex and numerous laws.
Was it the intent of congress to ban foreign visitors to the USA from renting and shooting guns at a firing range? Probably not. For a tourist coming to the USA, getting to plop down $50 to shoot a pistol or rifle might rank right up there with seeing a giant sequoia tree or attending an NFL football game... i.e. only in America... Many people visit the US from countries where it is nearly impossible to legally shoot a firearm for pleasure. Whatever congress was trying to do, gun rentals at a range is extremely low-risk as far as national security is concerned. |
December 3, 2014, 10:13 PM | #44 |
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Just got the below reply back from the ATF
Good Morning Sir, Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your recent email, in which you asked about whether you can visit a shooting range and shoot firearms at the range. Based on the information contained in your email, you may visit a shooting range as long as you are not prohibited from possessing a firearm. In the way of information, the following categories are prohibiting factors: Federal law provides that convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms and ammunition. These categories include any person: • Under indictment or information in any court for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; • convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; • who is a fugitive from justice; • who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance; • who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; • who is an illegal alien; • who has been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions; • who has renounced his or her United States citizenship; • who is subject to a court order restraining the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of the intimate partner; or • who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence [18 USC 922(g) and (n)]. We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.html. Regards, Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF The my original email to them was: Hi. I am an Australian citizen with a state issued firearms license. I am planning to visit the the US next year and was checking if it would be legal for me to visit a shooting range and use a range owned firearm. Regards, Peter |
December 3, 2014, 10:54 PM | #45 | |
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I have also contacted them and am waiting to hear back. In the meantime, sorry to say it, but I wouldn't recommend relying on that letter.
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December 3, 2014, 11:20 PM | #46 |
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In general, casual communication with ordinary service staff at a regulatory agency should not be relied upon with regard to any but the most mundane or routine administrative matters.
When I was working for a living I had any number of occasions to request formal, written advisory opinions from various agencies (although never from ATF). Pretty much every agency has procedures for making such requests, but they are more involved than just sending an email. Such requests need to be carefully crafted to assure that all possible, material information is provided, because the response will be based on exactly the information provided; and any variance makes the response potentially useless. Such requests are generally responded to by a lawyer in the agency's legal division.
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December 16, 2014, 05:52 PM | #47 | |
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Well, I finally received a reply:
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